Teal people found: Caucasians!

Do these Veddas from Sri Lanka - or other forager groups from South India - score any CHG autosomal DNA ???:


Krefter said:
I suspect most "Caucasoid" features come from Paleolithic West Asia with "ENF" people.

Mesolithic European hunters were Caucasoid as well.

Morphologically they were not much different from modern Europeans.

Pigmentation has changed much more than morphology.
 
I still think it is more of Central Asia component. In PC charts all ANE containing samples pull directly to Mal'ta boy place.
yes with SOuth_Central Asia I mean the region of Central and South Asia. I doubt North Pakistan and Kazakhstan were genetically much different during the mesolithic even.

The reason why every population pulls towards Mal'ta when ANE contained, is because Mal'ta is used as refference population for ANE. But as I said the day we have South_Central Asian samples which possibly(or possibly not) prove South_Central Asians do not have Mal'ta ancestry but from a different pre ANE like source. This moment ANE will be obsolete and appear just like a fusion of ancient South_Central Asian and Native Americans(ancient Siberians).
 
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We're going to need formal stats, not just ADMIXTURE, to back up the idea of CHG-like ancestry in West Asia. F3(not drift) shows that Assyrian/Lezgin/Turkish fit as a mixture of CHG+EEF(best proxy of Neolithic Near East?).


has he gone insane lol? (or did you add this part) Why should CHG+EEF be the best proxy for Neolithic Near Easterners because modern heavily admixed and post Bronze and Iron Age populations such as Turks/Assyrians/Lezgians appear like EEF+CHG? I thought the conensus was that a EEF like group mixed into the Caucasus over time this is visible from one of the CHG samples who shows first signs of EEF.

Or did you mean by Neolithic times the Near East was dominated by two components CHG (in the East and Caucasus) and EEF in the West. Than I agree. In fact I go further and say ancient Near East beginning with Neolithic was dominated by three groups, EEF in West, CHG in East and something like "Southern Farmers" in South.

In Anatolia obviously those CHG like groups pushed from the Caucasus and likely Iranian Plateau into Anatolia and the Levant. Why should the Neolithic Near Easterners(by that I assume you mean Neolithic farmers?) be EEF+CHG if Neolithic West and Central Anatolians appear EEF?


Fire Heard said:
I suspect most "Caucasoid" features come from Paleolithic West Asia with "ENF" people.

Fire there was never an "ENF" people. Thats at least what we should know from now. But if you replace ENF with EEF and CHG (sidenote both are heavy in something "Basal Eurasian like" ) that makes sense and I agree.


I wrote month ago what I think people of different components looked like. And I wrote that EEF would be the archetype of those what former anthropologists called Nordics and Mediterranids.

"Teal " or now CHG would be very akine to EEF with the difference of signs of "dinarization" aka "mtebidization" and slightly more broad faced.

WHG would be like broad or rounder faced Europeans. And ANE like something Kalash like who have Native American vibes on them.

EHG would be a cross of WHG and ANE look.
 
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To say that confusion reigns would be kind, I think.

I always think that the next ancient genome will clarify things, but the ball keeps getting kicked down the road. Until we get ancient genomes from further east and India, and the Maykop ones that we know are being analyzed, I don't think the dust will settle.

Part of the problem is, in my opinion, that Haak et al was not read carefully enough because people rushed off to do their own "analyses" and create their own "calculators", which often wound up just creating more confusion. Also, as I said at the time, I thought there was a bit of a disconnect between the stats and the discussion of them in the supplement, and some of the most sweeping statements in the body of the paper. That's bound to happen, I suppose, when you have so many authors.

I still maintain, and there is support in that supplement for the proposition that the people who moved into Europe were not necessarily the "Yamnaya Indo-Europeans" from that specific area of the steppe, or at least they were not the group responsible for all the movements into Europe. (Also, even among them, I think the proportions of these ancient populations varied.)

I believe, as I said at the time, that the people who helped to form Corded Ware, in particular, could have been a "related" population to Yamnaya and not a descendent of Yamnaya, and therefore an "Indo-Europeanized" population. In either case, however, they were heavier in EHG, and with some EEF, and therefore carrying less "CHG". Further north, some of the Indo-Europeanized groups might have been very heavily EHG. Further south the Indo-European groups might have been more heavily CHG.

The sooner people jettison this simplistic notion from the 19th century that the "Indo-Europeans" were this unique, homogeneous group that moved as a unit to everywhere we see Indo-European languages today, the better the analyses we are able to produce.

I'll just add that not only are some of these people confused, they are actually posting incorrect information in so far as Askenazi ethnogenesis is concerned. Contrary to what was written, there is no academic IBD analysis which shows sharing between Ashkenazim and Italians from anywhere in Italy. The old notion that the Ashkenazim were created from an admixed group of Italians and Jews who moved north to Germany has been seriously discredited. I would recommend that if these people are interested in the subject they search for the relevant threads here.

The fact that someone could seriously state that because Ashkenazim plot near Sicilians (and Greeks, and Maltese) on a PCA means that Italians and Ashkenazim are "related" shows a profound misunderstanding of the literature on the subject (if the person has even read it) and of the nature of PCAs as well. Similar placement may or may not mean "relatedness" depending on the PCA but also depending on the admixtures which formed the relevant populations. Two populations can plot near one another and not share any "recent" ancestry.

This is what happens when agenda and not data drives analyses.
 
all these calculators
maybe they should make a new calculator from scratch
or maybe - and more likely - we don't have enough data yet to construct the correct calculator
 
In fact I go further and say ancient Near East beginning with Neolithic was dominated by three groups, EEF in West, CHG in East and something like "Southern Farmers" in South.

As seen on Jones et al the Levant looks like a mix of EEF and something "East African" shifted. That "East African" shift must have come with those "Southern/Southwestern farmers who probably gave later birth to Proto Afro_Asiatic speakers.
 
all these calculators
maybe they should make a new calculator from scratch
or maybe - and more likely - we don't have enough data yet to construct the correct calculator

I would say the puntDNAL k11 calculator is so far the most accurate concerning ancient DNA. But now that we have some CHG samples we would need a new calculator using these samples as refference too.
 
Yamna people can be modelled genetically as a mix of EHG and either "Teal" or CHG. This also applies already to Khvalynsk people, even though in slightly different proportions. In anthropological terms I'm not sure how things looked like in Yamna culture (maybe the population was already so intermixed that it comprised a single anthropological type), but a morphological duality of Khvalynsk population can be observed.

Let's quote Mathieson's study:

"The unusually large cemetery at Khvalynsk contained southern Europeoid and northern Europeoid cranio-facial types, consistent with the possibility that people from the northern and southern steppes mingled and were buried here."

I guess that originally (before they merged into one population) EHG = northern types and "Teal" or CHG = southern types.

I wonder which cranio-facial type or types can be attributed to males SVP35 with R1b (grave 12) and SVP46 with R1a (grave 1) ???

Were both of them of northern Europeoid cranio-facial type, or was one or both of them of southern Europeoid type?
 
Alan,

Here are some reconstructions of WHGs:

1) Loschbour male:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUnh_X3jH0w

KMO_111307_08348_1_t218_144834.jpg


d676c960a6340a291eb05742f6dd2c1782fb53bc


2) Loschbour female:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cmlovynSh4

Loschbour_woman.jpg


3) La Brana male:

mw-cromag.jpg

la%20brana%20man.jpg
 
In fact I go further and say ancient Near East beginning with Neolithic was dominated by three groups, EEF in West, CHG in East and something like "Southern Farmers" in South.

As seen on Jones et al the Levant looks like a mix of EEF and something "East African" shifted. That "East African" shift must have come with those "Southern/Southwestern farmers who probably gave later birth to Proto Afro_Asiatic speakers.

The only haplogroups in East Africa to create this "something EEF and East african " was either ancient F or E
 
Yamna people can be modelled genetically as a mix of EHG and either "Teal" or CHG. This also applies already to Khvalynsk people, even though in slightly different proportions. In anthropological terms I'm not sure how things looked like in Yamna culture (maybe the population was already so intermixed that it comprised a single anthropological type), but a morphological duality of Khvalynsk population can be observed.

Let's quote Mathieson's study:

"The unusually large cemetery at Khvalynsk contained southern Europeoid and northern Europeoid cranio-facial types, consistent with the possibility that people from the northern and southern steppes mingled and were buried here."

I guess that originally (before they merged into one population) EHG = northern types and "Teal" or CHG = southern types.

I wonder which cranio-facial type or types can be attributed to males SVP35 with R1b (grave 12) and SVP46 with R1a (grave 1) ???

Were both of them of northern Europeoid cranio-facial type, or was one or both of them of southern Europeoid type?

Reconstructions of Khvalynsk people:

hvalynsk-1.jpg

hvalynsk-4.jpg

hvalynsk-6.jpg

hvalynsk-6-1-.jpg
hvalynsk-6-2.jpg

hvalynsk-7-1.jpg

hvalynsk-7-2.jpg

hvalynsk-7-3.jpg

hvalynsk-10.jpg

hvalynsk-12.jpg

hvalynsk-13.jpg

hvalynsk-17.jpg

hvalynsk-18.jpg

hvalynsk-21.jpg

hvalynsk-22.jpg

hvalynsk-23.jpg

hvalynsk-24.jpg

hvalynsk-25.jpg

hvalynsk-27.jpg

hvalynsk-28.jpg


Source:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sh...do-Europeans?p=1025629&viewfull=1#post1025629
 
^ Continued (due to the limit of 20 images per post):

hvalynsk-147.jpg

hvalynsk-127.jpg

hvalynsk-35.jpg

hvalynsk-33.jpg

hvalynsk-31.jpg

hvalynsk-30-.jpg

hvalynsk-30.jpg

hvalynsk-29.jpg
 
Angela said:
I believe, as I said at the time, that the people who helped to form Corded Ware, in particular, could have been a "related" population to Yamna and not a descendent of Yamna, and therefore an "Indo-Europeanized" population. In either case, however, they were heavier in EHG, and with some EEF, and therefore carrying less "CHG". Further north, some of the Indo-Europeanized groups might have been very heavily EHG. Further south the Indo-European groups might have been more heavily CHG.

I'm not sure why do you consider Yamnaya as the "original Indoeuropeans". That culture was not the first stage of PIE, but the last one:

According to linguist Robert Stephen Paul Beekes: "There seems to be no doubt that the Yamnaya culture represents the LAST phase of an Indo-European linguistic unity, although there were probably already significant dialectal differences within it."

Marija Gimbutas who was the original author of the Kurgan Hypothesis also didn't consider Yamna as the earliest PIE, but a later stage.

Gimbutas saw early stages of PIE in Chalcolithic steppe cultures which preceded Yamna - Samara and Khvalynsk cultures.

According to Mayu's blog, Corded Ware was descended from PIE groups which emigrated from the steppe during Early Yamna phase:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

AFAIK, all Yamna samples collected so far are from later phases of Yamna culture, so they are people who stayed in that part of the steppe after several other groups had already emigrated in various directions before. Which may be the reason why all that we can see there is ht35.

All Yamna samples tested so far, are from period called by Mayu "Indoeuropean stage 3", not from "stage 2":

Stage 2:

IE2.png


Stage 3:

IE3.png


By the time of Stage 3 some haplogroups and subclades - such as R1b-L51 - could already be outside of the steppe zone.

Maybe R1b-L51 - which is absent from Yamna samples known to date - was in Coţofeni culture or in Ezero culture ???
 
^^^
PIEs were a strongly patriarchal, clan based, polygynous society. Inheriting and family ties were entirely male-based (when they married, a woman was entering the family of her husband, ceasing to be part of her former family). Each clan was descended in terms of Y-DNA from a common male ancestor (its founder), and members of each clan carried a different haplogroup or at least a different subclade. Any migrations were also clan-based. According to Mayu during Stage 2 (Early Yamna), there were migrations in 3 directions - to the south-west into the Balkans, to the north-west into Central Europe and to the north-east (founders of Afanasevo culture). We can suppose that each of those Early Yamna migrating clans or tribes, carried a different haplogroup or at least a different subclade as their main marker (if more than one clan moved, then of course they could carry more than one specific subclade or haplogroup). So - for example - maybe those migrating into the Balkans carried predominantly R1b-L51, those migrating into Central Europe carried predominantly R1a-Z283 and those migrating into areas where they later created the Afanasevo culture carried predominantly R1a-Z93*. We are left for example with R1b-Z2103 which, it seems, stayed in the region until the Late Yamna period.

*And also R1a-Tarim, it seems.
 
Alan,

Here are some reconstructions of WHGs:

1) Loschbour male:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUnh_X3jH0w

KMO_111307_08348_1_t218_144834.jpg


d676c960a6340a291eb05742f6dd2c1782fb53bc


2) Loschbour female:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cmlovynSh4

Loschbour_woman.jpg


3) La Brana male:

mw-cromag.jpg

la%20brana%20man.jpg


predominantly broad or round faced. Of course there will be exception but in German we say, "exceptions prove the rule".

Some modern "WHG" type. Of course less depigmented. No one said WHG or ANE looked "non Caucasoid", just that the majority would have been more similar to the significantly broader or rounder faced types.

44455860.jpg


Dolph-Lundgren-11.jpg


z11425902X.jpg

Rendez-vous-en-terre-inconnue-pour-Gerard-Jugnot-destination-la-Bolivie_portrait_w532.jpg
 
Alan, are you writing about face shape (height : breadth) or skull shape (length : width ratio, level of roundness)?

In case of Mesolithic WHGs they were dolichocephalic (long-skulled), it can be seen when you look at Loschbour skull's profile.

In Europe a trend of brachycephalization (skulls becoming rounder over time) has been observed since Neolithic times until recently.

This is being discussed for example in this paper: http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth/smith/TimeMach1984.pdf
 
Alan, are you writing about face shape (height : breadth) or skull shape (length : width ratio, level of roundness)?

In case of Mesolithic WHGs they were dolichocephalic (long-skulled), it can be seen when you look at Loschbour skull's profile.

In Europe a trend of brachycephalization (skulls becoming rounder over time) has been observed since Neolithic times until recently.

This is being discussed for example in this paper: http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth/smith/TimeMach1984.pdf

I am talking about head broudness, the loshbour Guy is also broad headed even though he is slightly longer headed than average.
Loshbours headshape is rather Dolichocephalic and broad and he is an exception since he seems to be the only one out of the the males who is very longheaded, We can't conclude that WHG are long headed based on Loshbour if the two other male reconstructions are rather brachycephalic.

As I said in one of my posts month ago. I never claimed WHG were all brachycephalic.

Based on what I have seen from the cranial material found and reconstructions. WHG and EHG are predominantly Meso- to Brachycephalic. That means there are many WHG samples who are middle longheaded and many who are short headed. And they were also very broad faced on average. But also characteristics of WHG and EHG are strong browridges and sloping forhead.

While found EEF skeletons were Dolicho- to Mesocephalic and Robust (medium broad) or sometimes long faced.

CHG samples from what I have seen in people who are very heavy in this component are like EEF but with a slight dinarization process and some characterstics of EHG. Basically like many of the Yamna reconstructions. They would be meso-to dolichocephalic.



I have seen other mesolithic H&G reconstructions from Germany they are pretty round or broad headed.
 
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Here are some more mesolithic WHG reconstructions. pred. meso- to brachycephalic. Often broader/rounder faced
seperated-at-birth.jpg
Blaetterhoehlenfrau_Halbprofil_links__440pix.jpg

_78818461_c0208178-early_human,_stone_age_culture-spl.jpg
07913f4a549daf8cbfc2646b3cc75cd2.jpg


EEF reconstructions on the other hand are pred. Dolicho- to Mesocephalic and mostly Robust.

article-2525035-1A24190400000578-122_634x773.jpg
2013-05-07T220717Z_434523928_GM1E9580FMQ01_RTRMADP_3_MALTA.jpg
Lagolo%2Band%2BOtzi%2B260.jpg
 
Alan,

You claim that they are brachycephalic and to support this claim, you then post pictures showing their faces from the front.

This indicates, that you are one of many people who confuse Head Shape with Face Shape. You can't tell if someone is brachycephalic, mesocephalic or dolichocephalic by looking at his head just frontally - you must take a look from either left or right profile. Long-headedness is about the length of skull as measured from forehead to occiput (the back of your head). It is not about the height of face measured from chin to the top of head. Someone can be "broad-faced + long-headed" or "long-faced + short-headed" as well.

Loschbour is obviously dolichocephalic (long-headed).

Mesolithic HGs in Europe used to be more dolichocephalic than modern Europeans (see: the trend toward brachycephalization).

By the way - the last of your picture shows Ötzi, who was a Neolithic EEF farmer.

Ötzi was indeed brachycephalic or mesocephalic (this is the only profile picture you posted).
 

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