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Teal people found: Caucasians!

I know that Americans consider Mexicans as "very barbaric".

Hellenistic Greeks thought the same about Romans, and Romans thought the same about Germans - let's just quote Tacitus:

Tacitus, "Origin, Location, Manners, and Inhabitants of Germany", published in 98 AD (less than two thousand years after Tacitus wrote that, Germany has been the most advanced of European countries, while Italy is not in a very good shape today):

15. Life in times of peace

When not engaged in war they pass much of their time in the chase, and still more in idleness, giving themselves up to sleep and feasting. The bravest and most warlike do no work; they give over the management of the household, of the home, and of the land to the women, the old men, and the weaker members of the family, while they themselves remain in the most sluggish inactivity. It is strange that the same men should be so fond of idleness and yet so averse to peace. It is the custom of the tribes to make their chiefs presents of cattle and grain, and thus to give them the means of support. The chiefs are especially pleased with gifts from neighboring tribes, which are sent not only by individuals, but also by the state, such as choice steeds, heavy armor, trappings, and neck-chains. The Romans have now taught them to accept money also.

16. Lack of cities and towns

It is a well-known fact that the peoples of Germany have no cities, and that they do not even allow buildings to be erected close together. They live scattered about, wherever a spring, or meadow, or a wood has attracted them. Their villages are not arranged in the Roman fashion, with the buildings connected and joined together, but every person surrounds his dwelling with an open space, either as a precaution against the disasters of fire, or because they do not know how to build. They make no use of stone or brick, but employ wood for all purposes. Their buildings are mere rude masses, without ornament or attractiveness, although occasionally they are stained in part with a kind of clay which is so clear and bright that it resembles painting (...)

(...)

23. Their food and drink

A liquor for drinking is made out of barely, or other grain, and fermented so as to be somewhat like wine. The dwellers along the river-bank also buy wine from traders. Their food is of a simple variety, consisting of wild fruit, fresh game, and curdled milk. They satisfy their hunger without making much preparation of cooked dishes, and without the use of any delicacies at all. In quenching their thirst they are not so moderate. If they are supplied with as much as they desire to drink [alcohol], they will be overcome by their own vices as easily as by the arms of an enemy.

24. German amusements

At all their gatherings there is one and the same kind of amusement. This is the dancing of naked youths amid swords and lances that all the time endanger their lives. Experience gives them skill, and skill in turn gives grace. They scorn to receive profit or pay, for, however, reckless their pastime, its reward is only the pleasure of the spectators. Strangely enough, they make games of chance a serious employment, even when sober, and so venturesome are they about winning or losing that, when every other resource has failed, on the final throw of the dice they will stake even their own freedom. He who loses goes into voluntary slavery and, though the younger and stronger of the players, allows himself to be bound and sold. Such is their stubborn persistence in a bad practice, though they themselves call it honor.

(...)

46. Here end the territories of the Suevians (...) the Peucinians, whom some call Basstarnians, speak the same language with the Germans, use the same attire, build like them, and live like them, in that dirtiness and sloth so common to all Germans (...).

(...)

6. Iron is not plentiful among them, as may be inferred from the nature of their weapons. Only a few make use of swords or long lances. Ordinarily they carry a spear (which they call a framea), with a short and narrow head, but so sharp and easy to handle that the same weapon serves, according to circumstances, for close or distant conflict. As for the horse-soldier, he is satisfied with a shield and a spear. The foot-soldiers also scatter showers of missiles, each man having several and hurling them to an immense distance, and being naked or lightly clad with a little cloak. They make no display in their equipment. Their shields alone are marked with fancy colors. Only a few have corselets, and just one or two here and there a metal or leather helmet. Their horses are neither beautiful nor swift; nor are they taught various wheeling movements after the Roman fashion, but are driven straight forward so as to make one turn to the right in such a compact body that none may be left behind another.
 
Angela said:
it's clear to me that other than the domestication of the horse and the marrying of wheeled vehicles and pastoralism, everything else was borrowed either from the Balkans or from Maykop. There's nothing wrong with that. I actually admire the Indo-Europeans for their ability to take technology from other, more advanced cultures, adapt it to their own particular environment and then make further developments on their own.

In that respect the Latins / Italics / Romans were similar - they borrowed from Greeks, Hellenistic kingdoms, Etruscans, Celts, and from everyone else around them. In fact this is what all peoples do, the ones who are better in borrowing become the new leaders.

From Celts they borrowed mail armor, among other things. Among things that Rome made on its own was Roman law.

When you look at Romans, they didn't have too many original inventions, but they improved many older inventions of others.

Domestication of the horse and the invention of chariots are still very important original contributions of PIEs.

Those inventions revolutionized warfare for the next several thousand years, until the emergence of machine guns and tanks.
 
Angela said:
I am leaning toward thinking that the proto-Corded Ware people were a related group and not the result of a migration from Yamnaya, because if they were transplants it's unclear why they didn't have all the hallmarks of the Indo-European "package".

Maybe for the same reason, why Bell Beakers did not have all the hallmarks of the Indo-European "package".

Corded Ware had in any case more hallmarks of that package than Bell Beakers. IIRC Bell Beakers were not even a true society (not any kind of tribe, etc.), but rather groups of smiths travelling from place to place. Not to mention that the oldest Bell Beaker sites seem to be from Iberia, while supporters of steppe origin claim that the gene flow was in the opposite direction than the spread of culture. How could people be spreading in the opposite direction (from east to west) than their material culture (from west to east)?

BTW, Angela, can you list all the things that you consider to be the hallmarks of the Indo-European culture?

bicicleur said:
Neither have I my DNA tested
I had it tested recently (but just Y-DNA) and I turned out to be R1b-M269, perhaps P312.

As you know I'm rather seeing R1a as a bit more than or at least equally Indo-European as R1b.

So Angela can't accuse me of "ethno-genetic chauvinism", as I'm not even R1a myself.

And I'm also not claiming that PIEs originated in my homeland, as Goga is claiming.
 
Neither have I my DNA tested, but I am aware that I am in part the product of Indo-European culture.
I think they acted as typical cattle herding tribes.
You could compare it to the Bantu expansion and the Zulu kingdoms for a more modern parallel.
And I don't think the IE were unique at that time either.
I guess the Semitic tribes arrived from Africa into the Levant during 4th mill BC, they were pastors too.

The Semitic family is a member of the larger Afroasiatic family, all of whose other five or more branches have their origin in East Africa. Largely for this reason, the ancestors of Proto-Semitic speakers were originally believed by some to have first arrived in the Middle East from Africa, possibly as part of the operation of the Saharan pump, around the late Neolithic.[14][15] Diakonoff sees Semitic originating between the Nile Delta and Canaan as the northernmost branch of Afroasiatic. Blench even wonders whether the highly divergent Gurage languages indicate an origin in Ethiopia (with the rest of Ethiopic Semitic a later back migration).
A recent Bayesian analysis of alternative Semitic histories supports the former possibility and identifies an origin of Semitic languages in the Levant around 3,750 BC with a single introduction from southern Arabia into Africa around 800 BC.[16]
IMO they were responsable for the end of the Uruk expansion.
They enter written history with the Akkadians, who had allready assimilated the culture of the Summerians.
But the Amorites were still wild and feared nomads with cattle or goats, and if you read about the cruelties during the wars between the cities in Mesopotamia, it is horrifying.
It was what it was back then.
I don't believe either that 'Old Europe' was that peacefull and egalitarian as Gimbutas described.
Somebody had to dig and do the hard work in the mines, but we see from the graves in the Varna necropolis that the bulk of the gold was concentrated in just a few graves.
Furthermore it looks like Old Europe was allready in decline before the first IE people invaded.
Maybe it was climate change and there was hunger in both the Balkans and the steppe and it was a matter of survival of the fittest.

We're largely in agreement.

I did test at 23andme. However, being a woman, I have no y chromosome to test, my father is deceased, and none of my relatives in that line have any interest in testing, which probably shows their great good sense. :)

All it told me in terms of autosomal ancestry is that I am a typical Italian of my particular "place" or "admixture", if you will, which is to say almost exactly mid-point between Northern Italians and the Florentine variety of Tuscan. Of course, I already knew that. :) Still, considering that it only cost 99 dollars and included health information, it was worth it.

Oh, I did learn that I have a variety of mtDna, U2e, which, wherever it originated, is an mtDna common among EHG and then later in the Indo-Europeans. MtDna is very important in terms of possible health and fitness issues, so I do pay attention to that, but in terms of identity, it's all much too long ago. We're more than our uniparental markers, and more than any one ancient population.
 
Angela said:
Perhaps you should stop projecting your own world view, prejudices, agenda, and inability to be objective about history onto other people. I'd also advise using less emotion and more reason when attempting to understand pre-history.

Sorry Angela but it's not me who is not using reason but rather people who imagine the existence of some "genetically the same but not really the same" population in order to be able to claim that what Haak & Lazaridis 2015 called "Yamnaya admixture" in Corded Ware is not really Yamnaya, but something else closely related. Or that "Teal" in CHG is not really "Teal".

But of course those closely related people did not speak Indo-European (as you seem to be claiming).

So I wonder how were they related (common ancestry, but not common language ??? - why so ???).

And also I wonder how and when exactly do you think did Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranic people start speaking Indo-European languages. Perhaps at some point (when?) they got conquered by Bell Beakers who imposed language ???

The problem is that Bell Beakers never advanced that far east. So who "Indo-Europeanized" us?

And perhaps if Aryans were not IEs but Indo-Europeanized, then it's time to change the name from "Indo-European" to "European".

Because India has no R1b, it is full of R1a, which is not an originally PIE marker according to you.

So why the need to keep "Indo-" there ???
 
And the funniest thing is that Western European posters keep pretending that Yamna were L51, when they were Z2103.

So your "massive migration from the steppe to Western Europe which entirely omitted Eastern Europe even though they had to cross it on their way to Western Europe because - hey - that's geography" theory still has some major flaws.

Another issue is "Steppe" autosomal admixture, which is much higher in north-eastern Europe than in south-western Europe.

It seems people tend to use autosomal when it proves their point, but when Y-DNA proves it better, they ignore autosomal. :)

Really I have an impression that there is some kind of Cold War era resentment in the air on this forum.

But they told me before I joined this forum that Maciamo is very pro-R1b, I just didn't expect that others are even more so.
 
Indo-European studies started from Sanskrit language. And now Sanskrit is "Indo-Europeanized".

So maybe just throw to garbage the whole "PIE" concept and rename it to something else.

=====================================

BTW - the "assault on Indo-Europeanness" of Balto-Slavs is not a new one.

There was a study by supporters of the Anatolian Hypothesis, which modeled the spread of IE languages as a spread of an epidemic disease, and they also "forgot" to include Balto-Slavic branch in their analysis (as if those were not even IE languages).

There is a "counter-study" discussing that study, I'm now posting it below:

http://historum.com/ancient-history...european-origins.html#post1382412?postcount=1

Mismodeling Indo-European Origins: the Assault On Historical Linguistics:


And some comments to that video lecture:

"Can language spread be modeled using computational techniques designed to trace the diffusion of viruses? As recently announced in the New York Times, a team of biologists claims to have solved one of the major riddles of human prehistory, the origins of the Indo-European language family, by applying methodologies from epidemiology. In actuality, this research, published in Science, does nothing of the kind. As the talk presented here shows, the assumptions on which it rests are demonstrably false, the data that it uses are woefully incomplete and biased, and the model that it employs generates error at every turn, undermining the knowledge generated by more than two centuries of research in historical linguistics and threatening our understanding of the human past.

The talk presented here was originally delivered at Stanford University on December 13, 2012, sponsored by Stanford's Program in History and Philosophy of Science and Technology and co-sponsored by the Department of Linguistics. After a brief introduction by Kären Wigen, chair of the Stanford History Department, the presenters jointly deliver an address that lasts for some 50 minutes. A fifteen- minute period of questions and answers rounds out the video presentation.

The talk begins with Martin Lewis providing a brief examination of the media coverage of the issue. As he shows, not only the New York Times but also a number of other major news outlets, including Scientific American and the BBC, unreasonably portrayed the Science article as constituting a major scientific breakthrough. He then moves on to consider the significance of the topic, arguing that Indo-European origins and expansion has long been one of the most ideologically fraught issues of the human past, and that politically charged preconceptions continue to muddle scholarly interpretations. Asya Pereltsvaig subsequently explains the model used by the Science team, and then goes on to outline its linguistic failings, examining matters of vocabulary, grammar, and phonology. Martin Lewis then outlines the geo-historical problems of the Science paper before offering a few observations on the creation of ignorance. Asya Pereltsvaig concludes the presentation with a discussion of the languishing condition of historical linguistics and a warning about the possibility of generating "lodged fallacies" in the public imagination.

Further elaborations of the critique of the Science article can be found in a series of articles on the presenters' blog, GeoCurrents, located here: IndoEuropean Origins - GeoCurrents"

Another article:

Mismodeling Indo-European Origin and Expansion: Bouckaert, Atkinson, Wade and the Assault on Historical Linguistics | GeoCurrents

Mismodeling Indo-European Origin and Expansion: Bouckaert, Atkinson, Wade and the Assault on Historical Linguistics

"(...) The series, however, has been put on hold by the recent publication of two heralded articles on the history and geography of the Indo-European language family. On August 24, a short piece in Science—“Mapping the Origins and Expansion of the Indo-European Language Family”—made extravagant claims, purporting to overturn the most influential historical-linguistic account of the world’s most widespread language family. On the same day, Nicholas Wade, noted New York Times science reporter, wrote a half-page spread in the news section of the Times on the Science report, entitled “Family Tree of Languages Has Roots in Anatolia, Biologists Say.” Over the next few days, the story was picked up—and often twisted in the process—by assorted journalists. Within a few days, headlines appeared as preposterous as “English Language Originated in Turkey.”

As Wade’s title indicates, the Science article, written by Remco Bouckaert and eight others (most notably Quentin D. Atkinson), seeks to overturn the thesis that the Indo-European (I-E) family originated north of the Black and Caspian seas. It instead locates the I-E heartland in what is now Turkey, supporting the “Anatolian” thesis advanced a generation ago by archeologist Colin Renfrew. The Science team bases its claims on mathematical grounds, using techniques derived from evolutionary biology and epidemiology to draw linguistic family trees and model the geographical spread of language groups. According to Wade, the authors claim that their study does nothing less than “solve” a “long-standing problem in archaeology: the origin of the Indo-European family of languages.” (Strictly speaking, however, the problem is not an archaeological one, as excavations by themselves tell us nothing about the languages of non-literate peoples; it is rather a linguistic problem with major bearing on prehistory more generally.)

As GeoCurrents is deeply interested in the intersection of language, geography, and history, the two articles immediately grabbed our attention. Our initial response was one of profound skepticism, as it hardly seemed likely that a single mathematical study could “solve” one of the most carefully examined conundrums of the distant human past. Recent work in both linguistics and archeology, moreover, has tended against the Anatolian hypothesis, placing Indo-European origins in the steppe and parkland zone of what is now Ukraine, southwest Russia, and environs. The massive literature on the subject was exhaustively weighed as recently as 2007 by David W. Anthony in his magisterial study, The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World. Could such a brief article as that of Bouckaert et al. really overturn Anthony’s profound syntheses so easily?

The more we examined the articles in question, the more our reservations deepened. In the Science piece, the painstaking work of generations of historical linguists who have rigorously examined Indo-European origins and expansion is shrugged off as if it were of no account, even though the study itself rests entirely on the taken-for-granted work of linguists in establishing relations among languages based on words of common descent (cognates). In Wade’s New York Times article, contending accounts and lines of evidence are mentioned, but in a casual and slipshod manner. More problematic are the graphics offered by Bouckaert and company. The linguistic family trees generated by their model are clearly wrong, as we shall see in forthcoming posts. And on the website that accompanies the article, an animated map (“movie,” according to its creators) of Indo-European expansion is so error-riddled as to be amusing, and the conventional map on the same site is almost as bad. Mathematically intricate though it may be, the model employed by the authors nonetheless churns out demonstrably false information.

Failing the most basic tests of verification, the Bouckaert article typifies the kind of undue reductionism that sometimes gives scientific excursions into human history and behavior a bad name, based on the belief that a few key concepts linked to clever techniques can allow one to side-step complexity, promising mathematically elegant short-cuts to knowledge. While purporting to offer a truly scientific* approach, Bouckaert et al. actually forward an example of scientism, or the inappropriate and overweening application of specific scientific techniques to problems that lie beyond their own purview.

The Science article lays its stake to scientific standing in a straightforward but unconvincing manner. The authors claim that as two theories of Indo-European (I-E) origin vie for acceptance, a geo-mathematical analysis based on established linguistic and historical data can show which one is correct. Actually, many theories of I-E origin have been proposed over the years, most of which—including the Anatolian hypothesis—have been rejected by most specialists on empirical grounds. Establishing the firm numerical base necessary for an all-encompassing mathematical analysis of splitting and spreading languages is, moreover, all but impossible. The list of basic cognates found among Indo-European languages is not settled, nor is the actual enumeration of separate I-E languages, and the timing of the branching of the linguistic tree remains controversial as well. As a result of such uncertainties, errors can easily accumulate and compound, undermining the approach.

The scientific failings of the Bouckaert et al. article, however, go much deeper than that of mere data uncertainty. The study rests on unexamined postulates about language spread, assuming that the process works through simple spatial diffusion in much the same way as a virus spreads from organism to organism. Such a hypothesis is intriguing, but must be regarded as a proposition rather than a given, as it does not rest on a foundation of evidence. The scientific method calls for all such assumptions to be put to the test. One can easily do so in this instance. One could, for example, mathematically model the hypothesized diffusion of Indo-European languages for historical periods in which we have firm linguistic-geographical information to see if the predicted patterns conform to those of the real world. If they do not, one could only conclude that the approach fails. Such failure could stem either from the fact that the data used are too incomplete and compromised to be of value (garbage in/garbage out), of from a more general collapse of the diffusional model. Either possibility would invalidate the Science article.

Such a study, it turns out, has been conducted—and by none other than Bouckaert et al. in the Science article in question. Their model not only looks back 8,500 years into the past, when the locations and relations of languages families are only conjectured, but also comes up to the near present (1974), when such matters are well known. Here a single glance at their maps reveals the failure of their entire project, as they depict eastern Ukraine and almost all of Russia as never having been occupied by Indo-European speakers. Are we to believe that Russian and Ukrainian are not I-E languages? Or perhaps that Russians and Ukrainian speakers do not actually live in Russia and Ukraine? By the same token, are we to conclude that the Scythian languages of antiquity were not I-E? Or perhaps that the Scythians did not actually live in Scythia? And these are by no means the only instances of the study invalidating itself, as we shall soon demonstrate. An honest scientific report would have admitted as much, yet that of Bouckaert et al. instead trumpets its own success. How could that possibly be?

One can only speculate as to why the authors proved incapable of noting the failure of their model to mirror reality. Did they neglect to look at their own maps, trusting that the underlying equations were so powerful that they would automatically deliver? Could their faith in their model trump their concern for empirical evidence? Or could it be that their knowledge of linguistic geography is so scanty that they do not grasp the distribution of the Russian language, much less that of Scythian? If so, they are not operating at an acceptable undergraduate level of geo-historical knowledge. Alternatively, the authors might be aware that their model generates nonsense, but prefer to pretend otherwise, hoping to buffalo the broader scholarly community. They seem, after all, to conceal their approach as much as possible, couching their “findings” in jargon-ridden prose that proves a challenge not just for lay readers but also for specialists in neighboring subfields. (Translations of such passages as “Contours on the map represent the 95% highest posterior density distribution for the range of Indo-European” will be forthcoming.)

Regardless of whether the authors are intentionally trying to mislead the public or have simply succeeded in fooling themselves, their work approaches scientific malpractice. Science ultimately demands empirical verification, and here the project fails miserably. If generating scads of false information does not falsify the model, what possibly could? Non-falsifiable claims are, of course, non-scientific claims. The end result is a grotesquely rationalistic and hence ultimately irrational approach to the human past. As such, examining the claims made by the Science team becomes an example of what my colleagues Robert Proctor and Londa Schiebinger have aptly deemed “agnotology,” or “the study of culturally induced ignorance or doubt, particularly the publication of inaccurate or misleading scientific data.”

As the critique we offer is harsh and encompassing, GeoCurrents will devote a number of posts to examining in detail the claims made and techniques employed by Bouckaert, Atkinson, and their colleagues. But before delving into the nitty-gritty, a few words are in order about what ultimately lies at stake. We are exercised about the Science article not merely because of our passion for the seemingly esoteric issue of Indo-European origins, but also because we fear for the future of historical linguistics—and history more generally. The Bouckaert study, coupled with the mass-media celebration of the misinformation that it presents, constitutes an assault on a field that has generated an extraordinary body of rigorously derived information about the human past. Such an attack occurs at an unfortunate moment, as historical linguistics is already in crisis. Linguistics departments have been cutting positions in historical inquiry for some time, creating an environment in which even the best young scholars in the field are often unable to obtain academic positions.

The devaluation of historical linguistics is merely one aspect of a much larger shift away from the study of the past. Subdisciplines such as historical geography and historical sociology have been diminishing for decades, and even the discipline of history faces declining enrollments and reduced faculty slots. Academic history itself, moreover, has been progressively shying away from the deeper reaches of the human past to focus on modern if not recent historical processes. Such developments do not bode well for the maintenance of an educated public. At the risk of descending into hyperbole, we do worry about the emergence of something approaching institutionally produced societal dementia. The past matters, and we care deeply for the preservation of its study."
 
Part of the lecture about languages that they left out in their model:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ#t=2622

About interactions of Early Proto-Indo-Europeans with Proto-Uralics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ#t=2676

And about Late Indo-European groups borrowing words from farmers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ#t=2727

"(...) One thing that makes Greek [language] distinct is that it has this huuuge substrate of Non-Indo-European words. And guess what, those words are words for agriculture, for building, for statecraft. According to this model you had farmers crossing the Aegean Sea, coming into an area of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, and then borrowing words for agriculture from those hunter-gatherers. There is the same problem with Armenian [language], probably the same problem with Germanic [language], and the same problem also with the Indic languages. (...)"

If the idea that "Teal people" were not CHG hunters but some Neolithic farmers, and that they were the original Proto-Indo-European speakers, and they Indo-Europeanized EHG hunters, is true, then how can we explain the fact, that when later Indo-European languages - allegedly created by "Teal" farmers - expanded to various areas, they had to BORROW words for agriculture from Non-Indo-Europeans, such as Pelasgians in Greece, Funnelbeaker farmers in Scandinavia, or remnants of Indus Valley Civilization peoples*.

That's why the "South of Caucasus Hypothesis / Farmer Hypothesis" does not hold up.

Proto-Indo-Europeans were hunters who turned into animal herders, with no agricultural vocabulary.

Not much Neolithic Near Eastern farmer influence there, at all.

The model in which PIE emerged when two groups of hunters (EHG + CHG) mixed, explains PIE origins well enough.

================================

*About interactions between remnants of Indus Valley Civ. and incoming Indo-Aryans (see pp. 471 - 473 out of 782):

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/30/items/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranians/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranian.pdf
 
I don't care either way about that either, but apparently for some weird combination of "ethnic" or "racialist" ideology combined with macho posturing some of you guys do.

Very true. What man doesn't want his ancestors to be badass horse riding warriors and random hot women they threw onto their horse?:laughing: Tomenable doesn't do this though.

Count the percentage of women that post on genetic-forums and how often when talking about ancestors the women are mentioned? And think about it, you never read about Yamnaya women. To be honest when I think of Anatolia Neolithic or WHG or Yamnaya or Sumerians or whatever, I never think of women.
 
But I don't even find Proto-Indo-Europeans to be "superior". Unlike those racialist ideologists did in the past.

As Angela wrote, they were, in many respects, not as advanced as Non-Indo-European civilizations that they replaced. Different things facilitated PIE expansion - Yersinia pestis plague, military skills (including horse riding), etc. These are rather people who want to claim that PIE originated among more advanced farming peoples of the Near East (such as Goga who claims that PIE = Sumerians), who just can't stand the idea that some unwashed barbarians managed to impose their language and their Y-DNA... :)
 
And the funniest thing is that Western European posters keep pretending that Yamna were L51, when they were Z2103.

So your "massive migration from the steppe to Western Europe which entirely omitted Eastern Europe even though they had to cross it on their way to Western Europe because - hey - that's geography" theory still has some major flaws.

Another issue is "Steppe" autosomal admixture, which is much higher in north-eastern Europe than in south-western Europe.

It seems people tend to use autosomal when it proves their point, but when Y-DNA proves it better, they ignore autosomal. :)

Really I have an impression that there is some kind of Cold War era resentment in the air on this forum.

But they told me before I joined this forum that Maciamo is very pro-R1b, I just didn't expect that others are even more so.

Pardon me for saying this but Im Western European also and just seeing this for the first time personally it's hard for me to wrap my head around this. It might just be propaganda of some sort that we are trying to battle, who knows for sure.
According to Maciamo"s Early Neolithic map, Georgia was composed of YDNA G, R1B (I) and no YDNA J. To see Haplogroup J in at least two Georgian Epigrvittian samples and no YDNA J traces in Caucasian Neolithic Remains just makes me a little suspicious. And this also leads me to some questions.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#early_neolithic

-Is the map obsolete?
-Was there evidence of prehistoric Ydna cleansing in Georgia?
-Did Ydna J people retreat somewhere?
-etc.
 
Reconstructions of Khvalynsk people:

This is very interesting reconstruction, becasue, this people are mixed.

I see very normal (present-day) (east)european features, I see people
with neareastern features, but I see also some strange (and some ugly)
people which are not so often seeing on the street, but generally they
all are not to much different from us.
 
PIEs were a strongly patriarchal, clan based, polygynous society. Inheriting and family ties were entirely male-based (when they married, a woman was entering the family of her husband, ceasing to be part of her former family). Each clan was descended in terms of Y-DNA from a common male ancestor (its founder), and members of each clan carried a different haplogroup or at least a different subclade. Any migrations were also clan-based. According to Mayu during Stage 2 (Early Yamna), there were migrations in 3 directions - to the south-west into the Balkans, to the north-west into Central Europe and to the north-east (founders of Afanasevo culture). We can suppose that each of those Early Yamna migrating clans or tribes, carried a different haplogroup or at least a different subclade as their main marker (if more than one clan moved, then of course they could carry more than one specific subclade or haplogroup). So - for example - maybe those migrating into the Balkans carried predominantly R1b-L51, those migrating into Central Europe carried predominantly R1a-Z283 and those migrating into areas where they later created the Afanasevo culture carried predominantly R1a-Z93*. We are left for example with R1b-Z2103 which, it seems, stayed in the region until the Late Yamna period. *And also R1a-Tarim, it seems.

I see Tomenable, that you came onto right path :)

Many people pursue a "South of Caucasus" agenda for the origin of either just R1b M269 or both M269 and R1a M198.

But if you have 20.000 years of empty time-space, then you have a lot of time for such wandering.
Btw, it doesn't matter, were lived PPIE people before some point of time. They could originally lived
around the Irkutsk, after that came through iranian plataeu becasue on the south was warmer, and
later, still as one group, cross the Caucasus and settle around Samara exploring the lands as far as
Onega... and still it doen't mean, that some smaller group not split and have some share in creating
other cutures in different places. Sumerians they were ofcourse not, but euphratean lingusic theory
claim, that some indoeuropean dilect preceeded people, which in later times were called Sumerians.
so it is not impossible, that some group of people (it was not millions!) go somewhere else in early
stage of IEpeople history.


Considering that both M269 and M198 formed ca. 4 - 13 thousand years ago,

So, as you see, this error in counting is so huge, that any prooving and disproving based on time are usless.

"Teal people"

Why they are called teal?

I think supporters of this "Southern Agenda" want to claim, that Proto-IE language first evolved south of the Caucasus, then went to the steppe. But this is impossible to claim if we assume that the migration from the south took place in Mesolithic times.

Tomenable,
but people living in Mesolithic tomes, was speaking, isn't?
So "forming language" here or here is an empty disscusion.
If they came in mesolithic from Caucasus settled on Volga,
and after that they split aroundd the world, then you have
continuum of the same people and the same language. For
this that they changed their language by the way we don't
have any evidences and we will not have ever.

Because we know from linguists, that PIE language is not so old.

We know, that linguists are claiming, that IE languages can have 4-40k years.
And evern this is only a timeline to the last common stage (as some vulgar latin).

So even if some R1b or R1a came from the Middle East to the north in Mesolithic times, they were not yet PIE-speakers.

But were a little pre PIE :)

Does it really matter when and where they were speaking pure last stage language?
Did existing last common stage of Romanic languages somewhere in a. V century CE
means, that history of Roman(ian)s started in V CE??? Know... they had much longer
history than that, which reach even >1500 years before that time, and language on
which this people had were speaking, was still their language and still was some kind
of "romanic" language, even if he is called latin or italic dialects.

It seems increasingly more probable, that Marija Gimbutas was right not just in general outline, but also in many details - it seems that Samara culture (the first guys ever who domesticated horses) and Khvalynsk culture were the earliest PIE speakers.

I share this view also, but it doesn't mean, that they do not exist before and after that time and place. :)
 
On the other hand, both R1a and R1b were present among EHGs, already before they acquired "Teal admixture".
The lack of R1 in CHGs seems to confirm what has been suggested time and again before - namely, that their "Teal admixture" perhaps came exclusively from women.
You are probably right, but interesting thing is, that in some volgian republics (NOT IN ALL!) middle-eastern Y-hg's (J+E+T)
are on quite high percentage level. If they slowly were coming into that area, hwen IE were still small in number, then they
could have some genetic influance on still small IE-R1 population. This of course dooes not mean, as some people would say
that this make from J,E,T-people IEs - no, they simply settle in that area, and after when IEs go on their own, they stayed
there - and luckily do not increased in number, and probably were not mingled with IE - otherwise, they would be large part
migration and population. So, if they were not slaves or travelers, they could live side by side but have different identity.
they used to kill all men,

Only this ones, who have a weapon.
Rest of them was prefere to enslaved :)
 
According to Mathieson 2015, in Khvalynsk culture co-existed with each other R1b1 and R1a1.

If I am not mistaken, those were not basal R1b1* and R1a1*, but those samples have not been tested for more derived subclades.

They could be something less basal than R1b1* and R1a1*, but it has not been tested so far.

If we believe Y-Full age estimates on age of the most common Indo-European subclades (M198, M417, M269, L23):

M198 (formed 12,000 BC, TMRCA 6,000 BC) and M269 (formed 11,200 BC; TMRCA 4,400 BC)

M417 (formed 6,000 BC, TMRCA 3,500 BC) and L23 (formed 4,400 BC; TMRCA 4,200 BC)

Considering the age of Khvalynsk, lineages such as M417, L23 or M269 could be represented by just 1 individual male each at that time.

Only M198 could be more numerous among the population of Early Khvalynsk, because it's TMRCA is old enough.

But I do not see good reasons to think that M417, L23 and M269 were not parts of the Khvalynsk community, even if just small parts of it.

Let's also ask ourselves how numerous could be that entire PIE "tribe" ???

Perhaps no more than several thousand people ??? Most of lineages got extinct later, just a few became high-status and increased in frequency:

http://www.psmag.com/nature-and-technology/17-to-1-reproductive-success

"Once upon a time, 4,000 to 8,000 years after humanity invented agriculture, something very strange happened to human reproduction. Across the globe, for every 17 women who were reproducing, passing on genes that are still around today—only one man did the same.

"It wasn't like there was a mass death of males. They were there, so what were they doing?" asks Melissa Wilson Sayres, a computational biologist at Arizona State University, and a member of a group of scientists who uncovered this moment in prehistory by analyzing modern genes.

Another member of the research team, a biological anthropologist, hypothesizes that somehow, only a few men accumulated lots of wealth and power, leaving nothing for others. These men could then pass their wealth on to their sons, perpetuating this pattern of elitist reproductive success. Then, as more thousands of years passed, the numbers of men reproducing, compared to women, rose again. "Maybe more and more people started being successful," Wilson Sayres says. In more recent history, as a global average, about four or five women reproduced for every one man."


Men (left) versus women (right), effective population size by sex over time:

Small numbers of men fathered lots of children, most of men fathered a few or zero; but the number of reproducing women remained high:

The same pattern took place not just in Europe, also in other continents:

MTI4ODMwNDQ5ODU3MzY5MzYy.png


================================================== ==================

If Khvalynsk tribes numbered around 5000 people, for example 2000 males 3000 females (males often die in war, but also kidnap brides in war from neighbouring tribes, etc. - so there are more females). Half of them were in reproductive age, this gives 1000 males and 1500 females.

Now as we know from the study linked above, out of 17 females from that time descendants of whom survived to our times, only descendants of 1 male did. Assuming that descendants of 1/3 of the 1500 females did not get extinct, we are left with 500 female Khvalynsk ancestors.

Now divide this number by 17, and we are left with just around 30 Khvalynsk males descendants of whom are still around today.

And of those 30, probably just a few Y-DNA lineages became very successful, while others are with us, but at low frequencies.
 

What does it even mean to be "native to EHG" or to other tribe ???
J could be so widespread, that it could be "native" in many places.
How long does a lineage need to live in a place, to be "native" there?


You made here an exellent point!:good_job:
Haplogroups - especially this one who like wander - cannot be a "native" to any place. Hg could be a "native" i.e. related to another (the same) hg or subHG... People with J could travel as far as Karelia or Somalia,
and still be J-selfidentifide people. For example, Negros living among Americans, Jews or Karaims living in Europe, Tatars living in Russia and Poland - still are not IE, and if in the future some archeologists would find their artefacts which in daily sphere of life are the same as their neighbours, and would find their graves on the same land as IEs - but would them identyfied as having different hg: "karaim-hg, jew-hg, and tatar-hg" - it will not mean, that they were IEs becasue they lived on the same street, and they used the same artefacts and probably know their neighbour language - so how much in time, when HunGath-groups where living alongside on the same land not even knowing each other... So for example J in Karelia and R1 in Karelia, doesn't mean that they were the same people, and that today some J can claim to by IE, becasue some J was living xk years ago in the same area as some IE. It could be two different groups of people, even if they were trading their women having in result the same aDNA. But what is most important, it is the fact, that their origin was different from the beginning, even is some guy was assimilated leter. Jews, Karaims and Tatars lived here from long time, and are even in some sense assimilated, but they are still different people, with different history and tradition. Of course, they do not have one hg, but at the beginning they had, as every tribe - especially in bronze age and earlier.
 
And Angela's idea that Balto-Slavs in terms of Y-DNA are "direct descendants of EHGs, not Indo-Europeans" is wrong.

That's because TMRCA of R1a-M417 is just 5500 years ago.

So, if anything, we might be descendants of ONE PARTICULAR EHG MALE, not of all EHGs as a collective group.

And also at that time EHGs were no longer EHGs, because hunter-gatherer lifestyle no longer existed there.
 


You made here an exellent point!:good_job:
Haplogroups - especially this one who like wander - cannot be a "native" to any place. Hg could be a "native" i.e. related to another (the same) hg or subHG... People with J could travel as far as Karelia or Somalia,
and still be J-selfidentifide people. For example, Negros living among Americans, Jews or Karaims living in Europe, Tatars living in Russia and Poland - still are not IE, and if in the future some archeologists would find their artefacts which in daily sphere of life are the same as their neighbours, and would find their graves on the same land as IEs - but would them identyfied as having different hg: "karaim-hg, jew-hg, and tatar-hg" - it will not mean, that they were IEs becasue they lived on the same street, and they used the same artefacts and probably know their neighbour language - so how much in time, when HunGath-groups where living alongside on the same land not even knowing each other... So for example J in Karelia and R1 in Karelia, doesn't mean that they were the same people, and that today some J can claim to by IE, becasue some J was living xk years ago in the same area as some IE. It could be two different groups of people, even if they were trading their women having in result the same aDNA. But what is most important, it is the fact, that their origin was different from the beginning, even is some guy was assimilated leter. Jews, Karaims and Tatars lived here from long time, and are even in some sense assimilated, but they are still different people, with different history and tradition. Of course, they do not have one hg, but at the beginning they had, as every tribe - especially in bronze age and earlier.

Love that logic of Tomenable and yours. J could have been native to many places because it is so old. But R1a or R1b couldn't have been so widespred because R1a1 and R1b1 (not even basal R1a and R1b) was found in Karelia?

Wasn't that exactly what I was preaching you guys a million times? but your refused to accept that R1a and R1b probably existed beyond Samara and adjusting regions?

Nice to see how you guys jump on that horse if it suits the own believes.

So you are arguing that all male lineages of Yamna was brought by EHG, cause no "J" was found in them, yet EHG themselves had some J. So Yamna who are according to you guys descend of EHG males, "stole" wifes from the Caucasus but their parents the EHG themselves had CHG type J?

And all this conclusion is based on only two upper paleolithic/Mesolithic CHG samples, who might not even play yet a role for post Neolithic PIE because R1 lineages in the region might have arrived later as bicicleur points, because yet the Caucasus and north of the Black and Caspian Sea was yet still populated by I and J lineages.
 
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To be honest, do you know why you have difficulties to argue with me? Because your education and knowledge is average, maybe below average and because my IQ is between 128-134 points (more than average). I don't think you have higher IQ.

Goga,
higher IQ and having many information not necessary means, that you
are right. Even beeng a scientist doesn't guarantee that someone is right.

If you would have even higher IQ and the best knowledge of buddhism it would
not mean that you are right in everything. And if you would live only 300 years
ago, and you would have whole knoledge which was known in Kurdstan at that
time, it would not mean that you are right - european would be probably more
righter than you, even if he would have lower IQ - and lower knowledge... But
even he, watching by present day knoledge perspective would be a fooll... But
present day knoledge is ridicules if you will consider, that from perspective of
people from XXX century most of us is talking a nonsense...

It is very difficult to fool people with higher IQ and more knowledge/education...

Yes, this is true. But if you find one, it doesn't mean, that he will be right. IQ, knoledge,
science-corectness, do not mean, that someone is right. Btw, every one, who made a
difference and progress in science was consider to be a fooll. Only people who were
writting according to ideological needs were admire - and today is exactly the same,
and it is even much larger phenomenon! And if they are even wrong, then they are
still claiming, that they were right from the beginning - like in some kind of cult.

According to your IQ. Garry Kasparow has much highter IQ than you. And he is (still?)
beliving and promoting the theory that whole human civilisation has about 1000 years.
Creators of this worldview, Fomienko and Nosowski, are more inteligent than you too.

So, do you share this view, becasue they are smarter?

High IQ simply means, that you can faster speak
more nonsences than average human, as well as
some inteligent stuff too. It works in both sides.
 
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