Crime Terrorist attacks inside Brussels airport and metro

[gyms]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbINrdyAXlE

Victor Orban gives historic speech and appears to be putting Hungary on a war footing.(03.15.2016.)

 

[LeBrok]

It is terrible to wake up to the news like this. My heart goes to all Belgians.

IMO ISIS was preparing a big attack in several European cities this spring.

They caught Saleh Abdeslam yesterday and found weapons and detonators in the house, but not explosives, so it was clear something was underway.

I think though it was a setback for ISIS which crossed their big plan.
They now executed plan B with far less casualties than their plan A.

But of course more attacks may follow.

I think this is the case. Police was on their backs and they needed to rush the attacks.
I hope Belgian police will flash away and capture all of the terrorists and in time improve their techniques finding newly formed cells quickly. Your immigration policy need to be revised too. Belgium became a magnet for radical Muslims and the lazy immigrants.
Good Luck friends.

 

[Maciamo]

I'm afraid the Brussels suburbs will become half depopulated.

Only the northern and western suburbs. Anyway better depopulated and safe than full of Islamists and potential terrorists.

 

[Maciamo]

Pointing a finger at them was considered racism.

It may have been. Now it's common sense. Anyway I never liked how the term racism could be applied so loosely when talking about a group that is not a race, but a particular members of society that are better defined by their social class and religious extremism. Racism would be hate/discrimination against all Arabs, regardless of their social class, education, religion (many are Christian or Jewish, and some even Agnostic or Atheistic). That is not the case. People rightly fear religious extremists who have nothing to loose in life and don't mind blowing themselves up for their beliefs to kill as many people as possible. If anyone think that such fear is racism, then they are not better than the terrorists and should be arrested for defending them.

 

[Angela]

It's a detail I know, but what possessed Belgian authorities to tell the press that this guy was talking? I'm sure that influenced the cells to push the attacks forward. Honestly, these people need some serious retraining. Or is there another ridiculous law that says information like that has to be released? Also, are bomb sniffing dogs deployed at transportation hubs? If they're not, they should be, and I don't mean just for a few weeks; I mean year round, seven days a week.

@Fire-Haired,
Any Republican would be good on this issue, even Kasich, unlike the Democrat candidates; we don't need that clown Trump. What we also don't need is more of the Obama foreign policy, like Kerry's visit to Paris after the bombings...a wreathe of flowers, a hug, and James Taylor singing "You've Got a Friend". Pathetic doesn't begin to describe it. Meanwhile, Hollande's plea to stop batting away bees and go after the hive were ignored by this administration. This is the modern Democrat Party.

Also, nice as these light displays in the European capitols are, what they need to do is focus less on symbolism, forget their childish ethnic and nationalistic disputes, and put together an EU wide plan for immigration, refugees and security. Otherwise, just scrap the whole damn thing. This is a joke.

Oh, and meanwhile the U.S President is watching a baseball game in Cuba and discussing the long term deleterious effects of colonialism, global initiatives against poverty, and other progressive goals with those champions of civil rights, the Castro Brothers.

He is the definition of an empty suit. A Nato ally has been attacked. He should be in the Situation Room in contact with European leaders hammering out a plan.

You couldn't make this up.

All of that said, if you're going to strip people of their citizenship for committing crimes, then it should apply to everyone. You can't penalize people just based on their ethnicity and religion.

 

[ThirdTerm]

Molenbeek seems to be full of wannabe jihadists and this is where Salah Abdeslam was captured in a recent raid. The bombings may be closely related to Abdeslam's arrest. His fingerprints were found in an apartment in Brussels during a raid last week, when officers also found the type of detonators that may have been used in the attack today. It's unfortunate that today's attack could have been prevented, if the Belgian authorities had connected dots and rounded up Abdeslam's associates, who are still hiding in Molenbeek.

 

[bicicleur 2]

It's a detail I know, but what possessed Belgian authorities to tell the press that this guy was talking? I'm sure that influenced the cells to push the attacks forward. Honestly, these people need some serious retraining. Or is there another ridiculous law that says information like that has to be released? Also, are bomb sniffing dogs deployed at transportation hubs? If they're not, they should be, and I don't mean just for a few weeks; I mean year round, seven days a week.

afaik it is not the Belgian authorities who told this guy was going to talk
it was his lawyer who proposed to make a deal with this guy in return for information
it was the same lawyer who said he would sew the French authorney because he had made public info about the interrogation of Saleh Abdeslam

these lawyers defend these kind of well-known terrorists and criminals almost for free, because of all the publicity they get from that (allthough they don't admit it, they say that they are the saviours of the justice principles)

and the dogs are sniffing the luguage to be boarded on the planes, they are not sniffing everybody who enters the airport boarding hall

 

[bicicleur 2]

Molenbeek seems to be full of wannabe jihadists and this is where Salah Abdeslam was captured in a recent raid. The bombings may be closely related to Abdeslam's arrest. His fingerprints were found in an apartment in Brussels during a raid last week, when officers also found the type of detonators that may have been used in the attack today. It's unfortunate that today's attack could have been prevented, if the Belgian authorities had connected dots and rounded up Abdeslam's associates, who are still hiding in Molenbeek.

this is not just a tiny group of extremists
there are a lot of people in Molenbeek and other Brussels suburbs who are not actively involved but who sympathise
that is how Abdeslam was able to hide himself for 4 months, during which period he lived in at least 4 different hideouts around Brussels
but saying such things has been a taboo

 

[Maciamo]

It's a detail I know, but what possessed Belgian authorities to tell the press that this guy was talking? I'm sure that influenced the cells to push the attacks forward. Honestly, these people need some serious retraining. Or is there another ridiculous law that says information like that has to be released? Also, are bomb sniffing dogs deployed at transportation hubs? If they're not, they should be, and I don't mean just for a few weeks; I mean year round, seven days a week.

It is indeed ridiculous. All Belgians know that the Belgian police is a joke. By the way, many policemen in Brussels are of Moroccan extraction, so they may not be efficient at catching their fellow Moroccans on purpose.

I confirm that I have never seen sniffing dogs in metro stations or airports in Belgium.

Any Republican would be good on this issue, even Kasich, unlike the Democrat candidates; we don't need that clown Trump. What we also don't need is more of the Obama foreign policy, like Kerry's visit to Paris after the bombings...a wreathe of flowers, a hug, and James Taylor singing "You've Got a Friend". Pathetic doesn't begin to describe it. Meanwhile, Hollande's plea to stop batting away bees and go after the hive were ignored by this administration. This is the modern Democrat Party.

Also, nice as these light displays in the European capitols are, what they need to do is focus less on symbolism, forget their childish ethnic and nationalistic disputes, and put together an EU wide plan for immigration, refugees and security. Otherwise, just scrap the whole damn thing. This is a joke.

Oh, and meanwhile the U.S President is watching a baseball game in Cuba and discussing the long term deleterious effects of colonialism, global initiatives against poverty, and other progressive goals with those champions of civil rights, the Castro Brothers.

He is the definition of an empty suit. A Nato ally has been attacked. He should be in the Situation Room in contact with European leaders hammering out a plan.

I agree with all this. But what do you think the American president be doing concretely in such a situation ? It's mostly the EU that should get its act together and make in-depth reforms about immigration, refugees and security, as you said. The US could maybe consult to help establish security agencies like the FBI and Homeland Security at the EU level.

All of that said, if you're going to strip people of their citizenship for committing crimes, then it should apply to everyone. You can't penalize people just based on their ethnicity and religion.

Europe traditionally applied the principle of jus sanguinis for nationality, even though politicians have yielded to the pressure of immigrants in countries like the UK, France and Belgium to make it easier for anyone to acquire citizenship after 5 to 10 years of residence in the country.

For me the whole concept of nationality in non-colonial countries does not make much sense without a reference to ancestry. If it were up to me there would be a clear distinction between nationality, which requires continuous ancestry in one country for at least 7 generations at least on one parent's side, and permanent residence, which would confer similar rights to any family who has immigrated to the country without intermarrying (and having children) with locals.

In the case of Muslims living in Europe, if they have acquired the country's citizenship it must have happened only in the last few decades. Since they have no right of jus sanguinis their citizenship should be conditional to good behaviour. Therefore logic dictates that a criminal could be stripped of their acquired citizenship. And that is in fact the law in the UK, France and Belgium, among others.

British Law stipulates that a naturalised citizen could be deprived of their British citizenship if they engaged in conduct “seriously prejudicial” to the UK’s vital interests. (source) That would include terrorism, but also planned terrorist activities, Islamic activism, etc.

French Law foresees five cases in which a naturalised citizen can be deprived of his/her nationality:

1. If he is convicted of an act of crime or offense constituting a breach of fundamental interests of the nation

2. If he is convicted of an act of planned crimes or offenses punishable under Chapter II of Title III of Book IV of the Criminal Code (that is to say as part of an attack on the public administration)

3. If convicted of evading his obligations under the Code of National Service

4. If they committed acts incompatible with the status of French and detrimental to the interests of France to the benefit of a foreign state

5. If he was convicted in France or abroad for an act constituting a crime under French law and that resulted in a sentence of at least five years' imprisonment

That's more than enough to strip most naturalised criminals and suspected terrorists of their citizenship and expel them from the country. I think that the law should apply also for children of naturalised citizens.


Art. 23 of the Belgian citizenship code also specifies that a naturalised citizen can be stripped of their nationality if he/she seriously neglects his duties as Belgian citizens (e.g. terrorism) (the law does mention the example of terrorism).


In conclusion, you may be right that you cannot discriminate based on ethnicity or religion. BUT, you can make a clear distinction between citizens by ancestry and naturalised citizens. Deprivation of citizenship applies to any naturalised citizens conducting criminal activities or any other activities that are seriously prejudicial to the country's interests or incompatible with the country's values. This would include any individual who belongs to an organisation that supports terrorism (even if they haven't committed terrorist acts themselves), plan the overthrow of the government, or try to establish Sharia Law, or professes values that are contrary to Western values. In other words, any radical Muslim should be stripped of their citizenship according to the law as it is now.

It would be easy enough for Western governments to infiltrate radical Islamic organisations in their country, list all the members, gather evidence, then strip them all of their citizenships and expel them back to their country or origin. This is the first and most important step in combatting terrorism.

 

[Maleth]

The fact that Abdelsalam was stopped (not recognized with another four accomplice soon after the Paris bombings) and let free somehow says alot on how softly the situation is tackled. Europe has been dealing with various terrorist groups from ETA (Spanish police), IRA (British police) and Mafia (Italian police) style terror. As Renzi said there are already a good number of logistics in place these police groups adopted by time and there should be a much greater deal of synergy between them. I have a feeling that this is not happening, which is a shame if its just in the name of pride.

France must be doing something good anyway as the unfortunate terror on its soil just like the barbaric one we seen in Brussles was imported from Belgium, even though it has a much bigger Muslim community then the one in Belgium. Why is Molenbeek offering such a breeding ground? Nearly 50% of Marseilles is Muslim and while there seems to be other related crime, its not '''religious'''. So what is Molenbeek doing differently? Just asking

@Maciamo, I would suggest a change a title of this thread to Brussles bombings or something similar, since it seems more innocent people were killed at the Metro besides the airport.

 

[Angela]

But what do you think the American president be doing concretely in such a situation ? It's mostly the EU that should get its act together and make in-depth reforms about immigration, refugees and security, as you said. The US could maybe consult to help establish security agencies like the FBI and Homeland Security at the EU level.

From my perspective, this isn't just an EU problem or a U.S. problem; it affects every western style democracy, and they have to present a united front. Part of what has become clear to me watching as the chaos around the world has increased during his two terms is that the U.S. has to lead these coalitions. Holland knows that; that's why he came to the U.S. after the terrorist bombings in Paris. Leading from behind hasn't worked.

So, as to what he should have done, in my opinion, he should have come home and gathered his entire national security team together, demanding precise information on how there could have been such a security failure and what part we may have played in it. Then, he should have ordered a total re-examination of our current directives on the gathering of such information both electronically and through human intelligence. This would never happen, of course; this is a President of the United States, the leader of the free world, who goes weeks without getting a briefing from the CIA or the NSA, and who gutted intelligence gathering. Of course he also wouldn't do that because that would be to acknowledge that this is a huge problem, and that indeed the west is at war with radical fundamentalist Muslims...not all Muslims, but those Muslims who espouse this ideology. You can't fight something you won't call by its real name.

There's also a symbolic component to this as well. Yes, I know I just railed against the inadequacy of lighting up buildings. However, people need to be calmed and reassured so that they can think clearly and make good decisions. That's the role of a leader. They have to believe that someone is on top of things, is in charge. They also have to be inspired to do their absolute best...why should all these security people put everything into their work when their Commander in Chief thinks listening to a dictator condescend to a President of the United States and lecture him about democracy is more important? I almost thought he would whip off his shirt to reveal a Che T-shirt. The man is a walking cliche of 60s western Marxism, a true pupil of Marcuse and Ayres.

The next thing he should have done is to start sounding out the leaders of all the European democracies and getting them to understand that they have to work together and with the United States to get a handle on the problem. Maybe that would entail a meeting of all the Defense Ministers and Security and Intelligence Chiefs of these countries. Co-ordinate enhanced intelligence gathering methods, share technology and security procedures to be used at high value targets. I would think it should be clear by now that the U.S. was right and wasn't being paranoid about what could happen. Knock some heads together, even if just figuratively, and get them to stop this nation on nation squabbling. Make it crystal clear that if they don't cut this crap out, the U.S. will leave them to drown in their own mess.

Then, there is the broader attack on ISIS. If ISIS is obliterated as a force, how strong will its appeal be then? Disaffected low level criminals who really have nothing to lose anyway, which seems to be the profile of many of these new converts, might think twice about signing on. Every video showing those monsters crucifying boys who won't convert, or raping women, or beheading people with impunity is a recruitment tool for every sick **** out there, and there's a lot of them in every nation and ethnic group, trust me on that. If Europe, and more importantly the Obama administration, hadn't pulled out of the Middle East, and telegraphed exactly when they were going to do it, to add insult to injury, ISIS could have been stopped before they got off the ground, and Europe would be facing far less of a refugee crisis, a refugee crisis that serves to bring in jihadists to add to the home grown terrorists. There also wouldn't be all these training camps for your own disaffected Muslim youths.

This is not just a defensive problem. You can never totally protect all of an area's soft targets; intelligence services can never get it right all of the time. You have to go after the source.

Maybe that would require making it a NATO mission. If Turkey won't go along with it, kick them out until they have a new leader.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Then, there is the broader attack on ISIS. If ISIS is obliterated as a force, how strong will its appeal be then? Disaffected low level criminals who really have nothing to lose anyway, which seems to be the profile of many of these new converts, might think twice about signing on. Every video showing those monsters crucifying boys who won't convert, or raping women, or beheading people with impunity is a recruitment tool for every sick **** out there, and there's a lot of them in every nation and ethnic group, trust me on that. If Europe, and more importantly the Obama administration, hadn't pulled out of the Middle East, and telegraphed exactly when they were going to do it, to add insult to injury, ISIS could have been stopped before they got off the ground, and Europe would be facing far less of a refugee crisis, a refugee crisis that serves to bring in jihadists to add to the home grown terrorists. There also wouldn't be all these training camps for your own disaffected Muslim youths.

This is not just a defensive problem. You can never totally protect all of an area's soft targets; intelligence services can never get it right all of the time. You have to go after the source.

Maybe that would require making it a NATO mission. If Turkey won't go along with it, kick them out until they have a new leader.

I agree, ISIS and the like (e.g. Boko Haram of which nobody speaks but who makes more casualties than ISIS) should be attacked in their own home bases.
We need to make a U-turn, for what has been done till now is quite the oposit.
Both US and Europe supported Arab spring and so created an unstable area where ISIS could and still can (in Lybia) grow.
And Turkey and Saudi Arabia are still considered allies. NATO is not an option.

We should stop being naive and rely on partners that are not thrustworthy.
We shouldn't think the west can solve the problems worldwide if there are areas where the western values are not accepted.
For some areas and some instances we need some kind of martial law.

I'm very vague, I'm not an expert, I don't know the solution, I only know we are on the wrong track.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Erdogan claims Turkey delivered one of the attackers to Belgium and Belgium released him despite warnings from the Turkish authorities.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/36484/Aans...cial&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1458751673

I'm not sure this is true, but it is possible.
Belgian justice is a very expensive joke.

 

[Angela]

Erdogan claims Turkey delivered one of the attackers to Belgium and Belgium released him despite warnings from the Turkish authorities.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/36484/Aans...cial&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1458751673

I'm not sure this is true, but it is possible.
Belgian justice is a very expensive joke.

If it is true, does anyone know why? I ask because it's important to know whether it's mainly a question of lack of resources or lack of proper training. The "talking heads" on cable news shows seem to think it's a little of both.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ials-bash-shitty-belgian-security-forces.html

Btw, I hope the Belgian people don't get too down about reports like this.

It absolutely stinks to me of typical Obama administration "cover your ***". Notice that this is coming partly from a Democratic lawmaker, and it was a featured story in "The Daily Beast" in the U.S. They want the world to believe that none of this was their fault, their policies are not to blame; it was these feckless Europeans. It's just like after nearly eight years as President he's still blaming Bush for everything that's gone wrong in the Middle East. What does he expect from a country the size of Belgium? There's more people in the New York metro area.

Where is their honor for God's sake? You kick an ally when he's down? Where is their knowledge of human psychology? Do they really want to demoralize these security people totally just when they need to up their game? Of course, once you realize that it's always and forever about ego gratification and reputation and maintaining power, and not about the country or international security, then it makes perfect sense.

@Maleth,
I think part of the answer is indeed that as I've always heard, the French security apparatus is pretty damn good, even if they don't have the kind of resources the U.S. has. From news reports, they foiled a lot of attacks; this one got past them because it was hatched in Brussels, not France.

Could another part of the puzzle be that even though France also has an integration problem, it's not as severe as the one in Belgium and Germany? I'm in France almost every year, often specifically around the Midi, and I don't get the feeling of constant tension between the two groups. I don't know though, someone with experience of all these countries would be better equipped to answer.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I think the integration problem in Germany is less than in Belgium and France. That is due to the German government and also because there are less Maghrebi immigrants in Germany.
Belgium and France were on the same level, though France has made more progress lately.
You've visited the Midi. I wonder whether you have visited the suburbs of Marseille?
If you go to Brussels and don't go to the particular suburbs you won't feel the tensions either (except today of course).

The terrorist was released because there was no solid evidence to link him with terrorism at that moment.
So it is a problem with the law. Security forces were not even allowed to detain the man. And I guess his network helped him to dissapear from the radar at some point.
I'm sure discussions here in Belgium will follow the coming days. I think the laws have to be changed.
I don't know whether the security forces are efficient or not, but they can't do anying without the right legal framework.
Belgium as a whole is to soft with criminals.

And there is the Molenbeek and a few other suburbs with their ghettos and some kind of omerta existing.
It was an area on which the law had little grip.
That is the responability of the former socialist mayor Philippe Moureaux who didn't allow his own police force to act.
Oh, and yes there is the problem of the Brussels police force divided in 6 corpses. It is very inefficient.
The responsables are the politicians, and mainly the Brussels mayors who don't want to solve this. They want to influence their own police corps which they couldn't do if there was one unified corps. It is a big shame. It is a consequence of the Belgian 'compromise culture' of which so many politicians are proud here. Brussels should be placed under federal Belgian curatele.

 

[Angela]

I'm not going to go into detail about all of this because I really don't believe in heaping criticism on a country in the middle of this kind of crisis, but if the prevailing attitude is that these people can only become "real" Belgians after seven generations in the country, then not only the immigrants are to blame for their alienation. Part of the blame for all of this lies also with the Belgian people and their attitudes. If this was going to be the attitude then these people should never have been allowed to immigrate to Europe.

The attitude is very different here because of decisions made over a hundred years ago by the ruling people of mostly British descent. That's why the Islamist attacks here have been by one or two people radicalized over the internet. We don't have this kind of organized terrorist activity even among the most disadvantaged residents of our black ghettos.

I'm a naturalized American citizen, not from an "Anglo" country, and I've never been treated as a second class citizen because of that. Does anyone think that I would have such admiration for the American system, have taught my children to subscribe to an American identity and ideals if I had been? Maybe it should be a surprise that every man, woman and child in those suburbs isn't a sympathizer and co-conspirator.

The opinion of some experts:
http://www.cfr.org/religion/europes-angry-muslims/p8218

 

[Aaron1981]

I'm not going to go into detail about all of this because I really don't believe in heaping criticism on a country in the middle of this kind of crisis, but if the prevailing attitude is that these people can only become "real" Belgians after seven generations in the country, then not only the immigrants are to blame for their alienation. Part of the blame for all of this lies also with the Belgian people and their attitudes. If this was going to be the attitude then these people should never have been allowed to immigrate to Europe.

The attitude is very different here because of decisions made over a hundred years ago by the ruling people of mostly British descent. That's why the Islamist attacks here have been by one or two people radicalized over the internet. We don't have this kind of organized terrorist activity even among the most disadvantaged residents of our black ghettos.

I'm a naturalized American citizen, not from an "Anglo" country, and I've never been treated as a second class citizen because of that. Does anyone think that I would have such admiration for the American system, have taught my children to subscribe to an American identity and ideals if I had been? Maybe it should be a surprise that every man, woman and child in those suburbs isn't a sympathizer and co-conspirator.

The opinion of some experts:
http://www.cfr.org/religion/europes-angry-muslims/p8218

That's because the attitude in America is to be American first and foremost, something black and white people take equal pride in. Let's not blame the victim here. Belgians have every right to be Belgian, as do the French. They should take pride in their identity, and there is no room for hyphens, or people who have loyalty to a religion, or some other identity outside of France or Belgium. Nobody would challenge this in China, India, Japan, Iran or elsewhere, just in Europe, where you get called a racist for having loyalty to the heritage of your freaking country. It needs to stop.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I'm not going to go into detail about all of this because I really don't believe in heaping criticism on a country in the middle of this kind of crisis, but if the prevailing attitude is that these people can only become "real" Belgians after seven generations in the country, then not only the immigrants are to blame for their alienation. Part of the blame for all of this lies also with the Belgian people and their attitudes. If this was going to be the attitude then these people should never have been allowed to immigrate to Europe.

The attitude is very different here because of decisions made over a hundred years ago by the ruling people of mostly British descent. That's why the Islamist attacks here have been by one or two people radicalized over the internet. We don't have this kind of organized terrorist activity even among the most disadvantaged residents of our black ghettos.

I'm a naturalized American citizen, not from an "Anglo" country, and I've never been treated as a second class citizen because of that. Does anyone think that I would have such admiration for the American system, have taught my children to subscribe to an American identity and ideals if I had been? Maybe it should be a surprise that every man, woman and child in those suburbs isn't a sympathizer and co-conspirator.

The opinion of some experts:
http://www.cfr.org/religion/europes-angry-muslims/p8218

you forget 9/11 and the attack on the London subway ?

the threat in Belgium doesn't come from 'the immigrants', it comes from a well-known specific corner with specific religion, ideologie and ethnicity
they chose to live in ghettos amongst each other
many of them have a criminal record, Belgium is far to leniant with them

I didn't propose a 7 generation time before they get definitive rights
but there sure should be an evaluation time which is long enough
today they arrive at the border and they apply for asylum, maybe with fake pasports and fake stories, and maybe bad intentions
immigration authorities have to accept their stories if they cannot disprove them and have to motivate if asylum is refused
even if asylum is refused, it is very dificult to sent them back, many turn into illegality
if asylum is granted, they get full citizenship rights and social security from day one, and it is irreversible
there is a big chance there are another bunch of troublemakers among the new immigrants who will cause dificulties over the next decades
we've allready seen it happening at the Köln new years eve

I don't think you can get a green card and full American citizenship by telling fake stories nobody can check?
No, they have to apply from abroad and everything is checked before they can enter America

That is the madness and the hipocrisy of 'Wir schaffen dass' and of the Geneva Convention.

 

[Angela]

All this talk about terrorists coming into Europe in the last couple of years, and discussions about green cards etc. are not relevant to my argument, because it ignores the fact that many of these jihadis in Euroope are second and third generation, born and raised in Europe, and some are also citizens. There are also obviously native born people who are providing aid for would be terrorists. Pretending that this isn't the case, and that many Europeans have never made any secret of their antipathy and their disinclination to accept these people as full citizens is dishonest. The Muslims are not the only ones to blame for their alienation.

As both the Obama administration and academics have pointed out,

"Unlike their U.S. counterparts, most Muslim newcomers to western Europe started arriving only after World War II, crowding into small, culturally homogenous nations. Their influx was a new phenomenon for many host states and often unwelcome. Meanwhile, North African immigrants retained powerful attachments to their native cultures. So unlike American Muslims, who are geographically diffuse, ethnically fragmented, and generally well off, Europe's Muslims gather in bleak enclaves with their compatriots.

The footprint of Muslim immigrants in Europe is already more visible than that of the Hispanic population in the United States. Unlike the jumble of nationalities that make up the American Latino community, the Muslims of western Europe are likely to be distinct, cohesive, and bitter. In Europe, host countries that never learned to integrate newcomers collide with immigrants exceptionally retentive of their ways, producing a variant of what the French scholar Olivier Roy calls "globalized Islam": militant Islamic resentment at Western dominance, anti-imperialism exalted by revivalism.

As the French academic Gilles Kepel acknowledges, "neither the blood spilled by Muslims from North Africa fighting in French uniforms during both world wars nor the sweat of migrant laborers, living under deplorable living conditions, who rebuilt France (and Europe) for a pittance after 1945, has made their children ... full fellow citizens."

As for 9/11, I assure you that I don't need a foreigner to remind me of it; I went to the funerals of a dozen friends who died on that day. Not one of the jihadis responsible for it was an American. Yes, we've had some isolated incidences by a few people who've spent a lot of time here, but that's exactly what they've been, isolated. We have no enclaves that are breeding grounds for terrorism and also no go zones. We have no third generation jihadis. Generally, the Muslim-American community is quite different from the one in Europe, partly perhaps because different types of people came, but partly also because they've been treated differently. Those are the facts, whether it's convenient or not.


@Aaron,
I'm not telling any country how to conduct its immigration and labor policy. I'm a firm believer in only legal, controlled immigration. Neither am I telling them how they should define themselves. However, I'll repeat; if there was never any intention to integrate these people as full citizens with equal rights, they shouldn't have been brought into the country. To think that doing less than that wouldn't eventually result in resentment and a lack of commitment to the larger society and its culture shows a stunning lack of reason and no understanding whatsoever, imo, of either personal or group psychology. You either co-opt them or they're going to be a festering enemy colony in your own country. The leaders of the United States, Canada, and Australia understood that. The Europeans didn't.


Now, as the comments seem to be veering away from reasoned discussion and into emotional responses, I'm out of this discussion.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I've said it many times, those Maghrebis should never have been allowed.
And I blaim the Walloon socialists for that, who thaught they were importing a whole new voting public for themselves.

And it is true, America can absorb those North African immigrants because they can diffuse them over a large territory and they don't have these strong links with their home country any more.
But also America is much more selective on who they let in. They don't arrive en masse in small rubber boats on the remote American shores.

And subscribing this quote from Gilles Kepel, you might as well subscribe Trumps ideas. Both have the same validity.

And for 9/11 it may be commited by different people, the ideology that make people blow themselves up to make as many casualties as possible is the same in both cases.