The Armenians, fathers of the Etruscans.

They moved on land from Armenia to western turkey as Lydian/Phrygian colonizers where they stayed for a significant period of time, coming in contact with Mycenaean Greeks from Crete and mainland Greece who where setting up colonies on the coast of Asia Minor. They did not know of Italy; they set out on a journey with tyyrhenus and tarchon, brothers; all they knew was that as the Phoenicians had done before them, they had to travel out further than Greece for their presence would be opposed there. Upon arriving in Italy via the Tyrrhenian Sea at the height of Umbria, they changed their name from Lydians to tyrrhenians, as a sign of respect towards their leader who successfully led them to another nation, escaping hunger and a great famine in western anatolia.They would not have known how to build pyramids as they where middle-easterners and not north-Africans such as Egyptians. The Greeks, who also expanded to southern Italy later, where predominantly pelasgians themselves ( Ionians,Achaeans) but they would, at this point, coexist with the Etruscans as the Etruscans chose to ally themselves with the great peninsular latins; the greek colonies where extra "living space" to the Greeks, indispensable territory and so they changed their politics since the days of attacking/expulsing the Trojans...that's just what Etruscans where, a Trojan type race like the Troad Trojans ( dardanians) who themselves where an extension of Phrygians/thracians/Armenians and once these Trojans where synonym to Hittites and such people's, established in Anatolia, Syria, Lebanon since "forever" first men responsible for Chatal Hoyuk and such ancient first sites of Anatolian civilization.
 
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Also, we can historically find Cyme in Azerbaijan, but more interestingly, in western turkey. Cyme is found in ancient Lydian territory as are two other cities Elea (ancient Lydia) and Myrinna. We can also find Myrinna on the Etruscan island of Lemnos, Cyme in southern Italy and Enna in Sicily (derived from Elea). It is from Enna that Pluto is said to have carried off Persephone. Her rape is represented upon the ancient coins of Enna (Sicily) and Elea (south Italy) and in the ancient coins of Lydia And Caria in modern day turkey. Somehow sarpedon and ancient Crete where a sort of "intermediary" between the Etruscan-middle eastern ad Lydian-Turkish ancient worlds; many ancient Minoans/Mycenaeans (Cretans) , Turks (Lydians,lycians,Carians) and the italian Etruscans where all "brother" civilizations, sharing the same genes.
 
"Several authors have proposed that the Indo-European language presently spoken by Armenians arose during the Bronze Age, when Indo-European speaking tribes from the Balkans and Greece invaded Anatolia and Transcaucasia, leading to the subsequent spread of their culture and language. In this study, we have detected a number of lineages that are prominent in the Balkans (I2*, I2b*, J2b1 and J2b2) at low levels throughout Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). While this may suggest genetic input from early Greek or Phrygian tribes, it is also possible that these low levels of Balkan lineages arrived in Armenia at a later time, such as during one of the many incursions into the area during the reign of the Macedonian, Roman and Byzantine empires."
Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html
 
Goga, you're a typical Georgian mammal yet ignorant one. While you're making such a selfish claim that Armenians are not of a Y HG J2, ought to say that your lopsided thinking holds no gravity nor preponderance for such a claim. Here's something for your info:

Armenian men's most common Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroup is R1b, found in about 28 percent of those studied. J2 is the next most common at a frequency of 22 percent. Other haplogroups found among them, in descending order of frequencies, include G (11%), J1 (11%), R1a (8%), T (6%), E (5%), I (4%), L (4%), N (2%), and others (1%).
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Consequently, indo-European part you have misinterpreted drastically. FYI, DNA has nothing to do with language family. While mute people have no language they carry DNA in almost any group one way or the other. In terms of language is just an occurred blah blah bla. As much as you donkeys hate Armenians your poor assessment and evaluation about Armenians' genomes makes not one bit of a difference or change. You know it very well Georgians Azeris Turks are all there because of thanks to Armenians and Armenian civilization. There are more Armenian churches in Georgia built by Armenians than buildings built by Georgians. You slimy tunnel rat have the courage to even open your filthy mouth in reference to Armenians. Armenians created Georgians and Azeris and Turks.

As far as ascertaining the difference between the Indo-European languages and Semitic languages, first of all how the hell would you know what is what,? Secondly you wouldn't know the difference anyway. Why don't you leave that up to the linguists to ascertain that? Nevertheless the specific languages you're referring to either Urartian or Hurrian are both related to Armenian language and are Indo-European language. However ancient times there were no languages categorized as whether Indo-European or Semitic. Those times languages were limited to cuneiform scripts and mostly were Simmerian and Akkadian cuneiform. Assyrians too implemented Simmerian cuneiform. The real decent alphabets emerged much later were limited to Phrygian, Hebrew and Armenian. The rest were cuneiform type alphabets. Even Great Armenian Mesrop Mashtots invented Georgian alphabets but Georgians don't have the decency to admit to it. It's an honor to use the alphabets but shame to admit its source? That's kind of creatures you Georgians are. Now you have the audacity to define Armenians while you really defiling yourself. Goga joba.
 
Alexander Akopian said:
Goga, you're a typical Georgian mammal yet ignorant one. While you're making such a selfish claim that Armenians are not of a Y HG J2, ought to say that your lopsided thinking holds no gravity nor preponderance for such a claim. Here's something for your info:

Armenian men's most common Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroup is R1b, found in about 28 percent of those studied. J2 is the next most common at a frequency of 22 percent. Other haplogroups found among them, in descending order of frequencies, include G (11%), J1 (11%), R1a (8%), T (6%), E (5%), I (4%), L (4%), N (2%), and others (1%).
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This is your first post and right away you insult me? You registered to this site only to insult me? Do I know you? Don't insult when you didn't understand me. I didn't say that there is no J2 among Armenian people. I said that J2 is NOT Armenian, period. Sure Armenians have it, but so do Georgians, Greeks, Italians, Kurds, Persians etc.

What? Armenians created Georgians? I have no normal comment for this.

Azeris NEVER created the Turks. Before Seljuks/Tatars arrived, Azeri were Iranic speaking people. It were the Seljuks who created the Turks. Or if I would take you seriously, I would say it were the Anatolian Armenians who created the Turks, right?
 
Donkey, for one to identify and categorize a language, it must be heard and studied first to make an assessment whether it belongs to indo-European language family or Semitic. Etruscan Language was never categorized and therefore it remained as a subject of widespread guess. Those ancient languages were only categorized because the linguists studied those languages based on the descendants languages. But those languages that were not studied were not categorized as neither indo- European nor Semitic language family. Hurro-urartian language is neither indo-European nor Semitic not because they do not fit the category but because the linguists haven't been able to study. All languages belong to either language family and there are only two language families to relate to. Indo-European and Semitic. Because a language hasn't been categorized that doesn't mean the language does not belong to either language family group. You're really are out talking out the top of your hat without understanding your own mind. By the way you keep mentioning about Latin and I fear you have no clue that Latin is derived from Greek and Greek derived from early Phrygian language and alphabets. JFYI out of all DNA studies, Etruscans share the highest DNA with Armenians at the ratio of 11% as well as their cattle shared the highest DNA values with the cattle of Armenian. One in the right mind would have to understand that language can evolve and revolve so rapidly with deviation of dialects which easily develops into completely different language and even developing into a different language family. Do not firmly rely on the language support alone. There are lots of characteristics that contributing to those differences. Of course DNA is a major support in identifying ancestral tree.
 
Goga said:
Also Y-DNA haplogroup J2 is not Armenian, but a West-Asian / (Paleo-)Caucasian marker. Hg. J2 created the greatest civilizations on earth, Caucasian Civilizations (Shulaveri-Shomu, Kura–Araxes, Trialeti, Maykop), Mesopotamian (Hassuna and Halaf) , Iranic (Aryan), Hellenic, Roman etc. Together with hg. R1b it's the most talented, gifted and inventive haplogroup. R1b is actually more adventurous of the two, while J2 is more creative one.
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Above you said "J2 is not Armenian, but a west Asian/Caucasian marker" I wonder what does this mean? Did you already make your own assessment in terms of what nations are considered Caucasusians what nations aren't? And since you think I do not understand your statement clearly, you may wish to illustrate the context. That way I'll have no doubts Mr. HG J2 and R1b. lol

Armenian men's most common Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroup is R1b, found in about 28 percent of those studied. J2 is the next most common at a frequency of 22 percent. Other haplogroups found among them, in descending order of frequencies, include G (11%), J1 (11%), R1a (8%), T (6%), E (5%), I (4%), L (4%), N (2%), and others (1%).

since by your own words you assigned HG R1b and J2 to talented folks, (while R1b is responsible for talent and J2 is responsible for creativity) and since Armenians possess both of these values at considerably higher rate, might you say that Armenians are the most talented creatures in the world?

You are fascinated about this J2 thing aren't you? Well I hope you have many of those Y - chromosomes. LoL
 
Goga said:
This is your first post and right away you insult me? You registered to this site only to insult me? Do I know you? Don't insult when you didn't understand me. I didn't say that there is no J2 among Armenian people. I said that J2 is NOT Armenian, period. Sure Armenians have it, but so do Georgians, Greeks, Italians, Kurds, Persians etc.

What? Armenians created Georgians? I have no normal comment for this.

Azeris NEVER created the Turks. Before Seljuks/Tatars arrived, Azeri were Iranic speaking people. It were the Seljuks who created the Turks. Or if I would take you seriously, I would say it were the Anatolian Armenians who created the Turks, right?
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Also Y-DNA haplogroup J2 is not Armenian, but a West-Asian / (Paleo-)Caucasian marker. Hg. J2 created the greatest civilizations on earth, Caucasian Civilizations (Shulaveri-Shomu, Kura–Araxes, Trialeti, Maykop), Mesopotamian (Hassuna and Halaf) , Iranic (Aryan), Hellenic, Roman etc. Together with hg. R1b it's the most talented, gifted and inventive haplogroup. R1b is actually more adventurous of the two, while J2 is more creative one.



I'm reacting to your automated mentality. If you're negative toward Armenians because of anger, that doesn't support the reality. You're trying to be negative and constantly attack Armenians for whatever problem you have with them.

Do do the Georgians bother me in therms of where they're standing on the map? No they do not bother me nor I will be negative towards them regardless whether I like them or not, I will stick to the reality. I do not lie to myself.
 
RHAS said:
Romulus and Remus are descendants of Aeneas the Trojan according to Vergillus.
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Bloody distant descendants then. Rome was supposedly founded 500 years after the fall of Troy. I don't think that many Europeans can trace back their ancestry so far even with the use of official records carefully maintained in government archives. How could people 3000 years ago have known who their ancestors were five centuries before? It's mostly just fairy tales and wishful thinking.
 
People in pre-historical and even historical times wanted to associate themselves with great empires or leaders of the past. So, the Romans wanted to be associated with the Trojans, in opposition to the Greeks. The Julii clan of Caesar said they descended from Venus.

By the Middle Ages, around 1200 AD, the Danes, French and Welsh were all claiming descent from the Trojans. So were the Scots, through descent from "Brutus of Troy". The Scots also claimed at one point to descend from Scota, a daughter of an Egyptian pharaoh. It's all just an attempt to make your people more "ancient" and more illustrious. It amazes me to read internet posts giving credence to some of these as some sort of ancestral memory. What possible "ancestral memory" could the Scots have of descent from Egyptians?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutus_of_Troy

https://books.google.com/books?id=j...The Scots were descended from Trojans&f=false
 
Goga said:
Hg. E , J1 and maybe T are Semitic-style Middle Eastern/Southwest Asian haplogroups. J2 is not Semitic.
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Goga, not necessarily true, there are different subclades of each over a large time frame, some J1, E and T are associated with Semitic language and culture groups, example E-V13 is not Semitic but E-M123 is, even at that the mutations are old, it would be down streams you need to look at. As for J2, same goes for it, J2 has subclades that are associated with Semitic Cultures and others that aren't, I would include J2 in your Semitic-style Middle Eastern/Southwest Asian haplogroups, as J2 was involved with Northwest Semitic languages and people. Take a look at the people who spoke Northwest Semitic and you'll the correlation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Semitic_languages
 
Azzurro said:
Goga, not necessarily true, there are different subclades of each over a large time frame, some J1, E and T are associated with Semitic language and culture groups, example E-V13 is not Semitic but E-M123 is, even at that the mutations are old, it would be down streams you need to look at. As for J2, same goes for it, J2 has subclades that are associated with Semitic Cultures and others that aren't, I would include J2 in your Semitic-style Middle Eastern/Southwest Asian haplogroups, as J2 was involved with Northwest Semitic languages and people. Take a look at the people who spoke Northwest Semitic and you'll the correlation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Semitic_languages
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The 40000 hittite tablets as we know show no semitic language and with this the Northern levant as part of the hittite area for many many centuries , would at the time would have had no semitic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states
with the collapse of the hittite around 1100Bc , would be the first time that we can see any pre-phoenician people or even any semitic linguistic group enter the northern levant

With Phoenicians showing mostly J2 origin as per the old paper by nat-geno , then either
1- the phoenicians came via the north of the zargos mountains bringing no semitic language and semitic came to this levant area from others or

2- J2 brought semitic from the south levant to form the phoenicians
 
Sile said:
The 40000 hittite tablets as we know show no semitic language and with this the Northern levant as part of the hittite area for many many centuries , would at the time would have had no semitic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states
with the collapse of the hittite around 1100Bc , would be the first time that we can see any pre-phoenician people or even any semitic linguistic group enter the northern levant

With Phoenicians showing mostly J2 origin as per the old paper by nat-geno , then either
1- the phoenicians came via the north of the zargos mountains bringing no semitic language and semitic came to this levant area from others or

2- J2 brought semitic from the south levant to form the phoenicians
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Thanks Sile for the theories, Ugarite was considered a Northwest Semitic language as well, what I was trying to get across was that J2 was native to Northern Levant atleast some subclades, and they would have been Northwest Semitic speaking peoples or helped spread it, like Pheonicians, Aramaics, and Israelites, however we cannot be certain that the Hittites were J2, though I personally believe they had a nice chunk, but it was the Cilicians, Hurrians and Ugarites that were involved with the Northern Levant as natives, the Hitties were Indo-european the other three weren't. I think some J2 was native Semitic Speaking as some were Indo-european or adapted cultures. I don't think there is a correlation between Phoenicians and Hittites, but rather Cilicians, Hurrians, and Ugarities would have had some even if the Hitties controlled the area.
 
Alexander

As for Georgian alphabet. Georgians have 3 types of alphabet. The one You refer that is probably created by Mesrop Mashtots is the oldest one that is no more used. You can compare them here and see that the oldest one's graphics is similar to Armenian and Caucasian Albanian one. Thus very probable created by the same person.
While the modern Georgian alphabet is very different.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/georgian.htm
 
Without actual Etruscan aDNA everything here is a speculation. Adna is very impredictable.
 
Azzurro said:
Thanks Sile for the theories, Ugarite was considered a Northwest Semitic language as well, what I was trying to get across was that J2 was native to Northern Levant atleast some subclades, and they would have been Northwest Semitic speaking peoples or helped spread it, like Pheonicians, Aramaics, and Israelites, however we cannot be certain that the Hittites were J2, though I personally believe they had a nice chunk, but it was the Cilicians, Hurrians and Ugarites that were involved with the Northern Levant as natives, the Hitties were Indo-european the other three weren't. I think some J2 was native Semitic Speaking as some were Indo-european or adapted cultures. I don't think there is a correlation between Phoenicians and Hittites, but rather Cilicians, Hurrians, and Ugarities would have had some even if the Hitties controlled the area.
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Ciliciians could be pre-armenians arriving there around 100BC until 1200AD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Kingdom_of_Cilicia



the hurrians could be the same as the Mitanni ...........pre-Kurdish people ..........did they speak semitic ?......I doubt that
 
Sile, the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speaking, for me it represents the ruling class, the locals Hurrians would most likely have been J2 along the Cilicans, what I was trying to say in the earlier post is some J2 was native in Semitic speaking areas, lets say the Phoencians they spoke Punic a Semitic language and had Some J2 lineages, when they would settle in other areas of the Mediterranean they would spread their J2 which would have been Semitic speaking, basically what I am trying to say is Some J2 subclades adapted the Semitic language, I don't think they were originally Semitic speakers but rather adapted, so some J2 is associated with Semites.
 
adamo said:
Turks and Azeris and Lebanese are Semitic they all have J2 and J1 also, but Semites such as Jews are predominantly j2, there's also an intrusive invading E element in Semites that is correct, it was absorbed by them. There was a proto-European substratum across Italy long before the north-mesopotamians of the Neolithic and Greeks of j2 arrived.
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Jews are not predominantly J2. They are J1 (Semitic). J2 (Indo-European) had a solely Anatolian/Armenian Highlands point of origin. Hence the fact around 40% of Iranians, a large component of Caucasus Mountains peoples, Balkan, and Tuscans belong to that yDNA Hg
 
femekh said:
Jews are not predominantly J2. They are J1 (Semitic). J2 (Indo-European) had a solely Anatolian/Armenian Highlands point of origin. Hence the fact around 40% of Iranians, a large component of Caucasus Mountains peoples, Balkan, and Tuscans belong to that yDNA Hg
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Actually, I believe for AJs J2 is more common than J1.
 
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