The Beaker Bell Phenomenon

[Taranis]

I've made a bit of an experiment. Based on the idea that the Beaker Culture may have been "hijacked" by Indo-European migrations, I've attempted to piece together when and where Beaker-Bell traditions ends (ie, when the Beaker style fell out of use), and by what it is succeeded:

Central Europe: ~2300 BC (Unetice Culture)
Soutern France: ~2150-1900 BC
Denmark: ~1900-1800 BC (Nordic Bronze)
Sardinia: ~1800 BC (Nuraghic Civilization)
Eastern Andalusia: ~1800 BC (El-Argar)
North Africa: ~1800 BC
Netherlands, Lower Rhine: ~1800 BC
Duero region: ~1700 BC (Proto-Cogotas phase)
Ireland: ~1700 BC
Britain: ~1700-1600 BC (Wessex II?)
Basque Country: ~1700 BC
Northern Portugal: ~1300 BC (Atlantic Bronze)
Balearic Isles: ~1300 BC (Talayotic Civilization)

There is obviously areas in this list which presumably were inhabited by non-Indo-European peoples by the time history recorded them (Basque country, Balearic Isles, Andalusia, North Africa, Sardinia). If you disregard these areas, you get a rough east-to-west progression, which indeed would match with the spread of R1b as well as the Indo-European languages.

 

[Asturrulumbo]

I've made a bit of an experiment. Based on the idea that the Beaker Culture may have been "hijacked" by Indo-European migrations, I've attempted to piece together when and where Beaker-Bell traditions ends (ie, when the Beaker style fell out of use), and by what it is succeeded:


There is obviously areas in this list which presumably were inhabited by non-Indo-European peoples by the time history recorded them (Basque country, Balearic Isles, Andalusia, North Africa, Sardinia). If you disregard these areas, you get a rough east-to-west progression, which indeed would match with the spread of R1b as well as the Indo-European languages.

Hmmm.... interesting, of these, I would say that the following (in red) were IE and R1b with the date given:

Central Europe: (possibly including Alsace, Lorraine and Champagne)~2300 BC (Unetice Culture)
Soutern France: ~2150-1900 BC
Denmark: ~1900-1800 BC (Nordic Bronze)
Sardinia: ~1800 BC (Nuraghic Civilization)
Eastern Andalusia: ~1800 BC (El-Argar)
North Africa: ~1800 BC
Netherlands, Lower Rhine: ~1800 BC
Duero region: ~1700 BC (Proto-Cogotas phase)
Ireland: ~1700 BC
Britain: ~1700-1600 BC (Wessex II?)
Basque Country: ~1700 BC
Northern Portugal: ~1300 BC (Atlantic Bronze)
Balearic Isles: ~1300 BC (Talayotic Civilization)
Sadly, my hard drive is in a state of coma, so the archaeological and linguistic resources I would normally check are unavailable to me right now.

 

[zanipolo]

Bell beakers came from Iberia , and move to central europe

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/

looks like Gimbutas is also justified to some degree

 

[MOESAN]

I suppose Bell Beakers of Spain are not a birthplace first babies but the variant of more eastern Beakers coming form East, I bet Balkans or E-Carpathians... some very close shapes and forms were found in the Russian Steppes in company (it's funny) of Corded pottery, and I don't think they came from Iberia IF WHAT I RED IS SERIOUS -
the pottery descriptions and classifications are a very hard sports and the datations a big problems needing great precision because the phenomenon of original Bell Beakers and close forms propagated very quickly, it seems, we have a lot of nearly contemporaneous places of diffusion from Spain to the Netherlands, speaking about W-Europe only -
more questions than answers, I'm afraid -
other possibility: BB bearers went fast an far, in not to big number sometimes and appear to me as searchers-traders more than as members of numerous tribes, at a first stage - maybe they did not speak I-E but helped to developpe economy in different places - in east Europe they met Y-R1b men and mixed more deeply with them creating so a contiental BB culture, slightly different from the culture they developped on SW Iberia??? the Calcholithic 'dinarid skeletons' of Ireland and Germany and Provence and E Iberia can not be dropped out so easily...
but if we go so far in past, we are obliged to look again at the I-Eans formation, at the role played by anatolian or E-Caspian cultures (and the region they influenced so often: the Balkans) upon the first steppic people...

 

[InukCanuck]

As a verified R1B-L11* myself I would like to weigh in on this discussion.

Our most ancient confirmed birthplace is explained in this article: http ://originhunters.blogspot.ca/2014/02/the-third-brother-y-dna-tale.html

It is ludicrous to believe that R1B originated in Iberia.

We believe that the island of Bornholm in Denmark acted as a genetic refuge for our clade.

We demonstrate an extremely strong tendency to producing male offspring.

If you are L11* yourself please feel free to join our Facebook group. There are about 50+ of us world wide.

We have tested 1.5% Neanderthal via Geno 2.0

 

[Aberdeen]

As a verified R1B-L11* myself I would like to weigh in on this discussion.

Our most ancient confirmed birthplace is explained in this article: http ://originhunters.blogspot.ca/2014/02/the-third-brother-y-dna-tale.html

It is ludicrous to believe that R1B originated in Iberia.

We believe that the island of Bornholm in Denmark acted as a genetic refuge for our clade.

We demonstrate an extremely strong tendency to producing male offspring.

If you are L11* yourself please feel free to join our Facebook group. There are about 50+ of us world wide.

We have tested 1.5% Neanderthal via Geno 2.0

I don't see anyone here arguing that R1b originated in Iberia. Goga was arguing that R1b arrived in Europe before the Neolithic, but it seems as if nobody agrees with that idea. And the question being posed was whether Bell Beaker is associated with R1b and whether Bell Beaker has anything to do with early IE population movements. Most people on this forum who have a view on R1b seem to see it as being associated with IE, but some have argued elsewhere that R1b could have arrived in Iberia during the Neolithic in which case if it was associated with Bell Beaker, Bell Beaker would be pre-IE, and Bell Beaker does seem to have spread out from western Iberia at a time that appears to be pre-IE, IMO. The difficulty with that argument is explaining how R1b got to Iberia in the Neolithic and from what direction, and how that fits in with the placement of R1b in other western European populations. Hence the suggestions about other haplotypes fitting with Bell Beaker.

 

[InukCanuck]

For anyone reading this and wondering about clade age, our friend Michael Maglio (The In Depth Genealogist) has analysed our markers and provided a very useful phylo tree.

http ://originhunters.com/content/BigPhylo.pdf

Something to consider when trying to assign clades to individual cultures is that the mutating markers evolve at different rates for each lineage and it is highly likely that genetic penetration would have been very uniform after the initial shock had worn off.