The Beheading Video

Areku said:
The countries with soldiers in Iraq have to resist these gruesome images and stick in there. If they withdraw, and the fanatics get what they want, then the deaths of people like Kim are pointless and humiliating. However, if they step up, and keep on pumping bullets and bombs into the ramshackle religious freaks, at least their deaths will be avenged.


Until another man, or men rise from the opposing side to avenge the death of the avenged....you know what I mean.

Where does it end?
 
Areku said:
The countries with soldiers in Iraq have to resist these gruesome images and stick in there. If they withdraw, and the fanatics get what they want, then the deaths of people like Kim are pointless and humiliating. However, if they step up, and keep on pumping bullets and bombs into the ramshackle religious freaks, at least their deaths will be avenged.

I agree that the people who be-headed those guys deserve to be hunted down and killed, but its hard to see what the point is of 'Sticking in there' just because you don't want those people to have died in vain. I think the war is pretty much already lost and the longer the US/UK stay in Iraq the longer the misery of the Iraqi people is going to be extended without serving any purpose.

Areku said:
To be honest I agree with Kilroy, what have we ever got out of the middle east? You don't see US/UK soldiers beheading people on TV do you. Incidents like this just go to show the inhumanity of the people we're fighting, they're dogs, nothing more.

No offence intended, but this type of judgementalism is just stupid. No, we haven't seen US troops be-heading Iraqis on TV, but we have seen pictures of them gloating over the corpses of Iraqi prisoners they have just beaten to death. Please explain to me how one is better than the other. I'm all ears.
 
Look...they BOTH make mistakes...they BOTH did wrong things, but America doesn't show pictures,movies WORLDWIDE of snuff(killing ppl for fun)...yeah this is what I call it..these ppl are just sick(just as the american/british rascist soldiers who did such an awefull thing)and shouldn't be doing such awefull things....but this is just because they are primitive :eek:kashii: and to the ppl who think they don't want to globalize THEIR religion(wich is at the (some kind of) base of wars) is wrong, THEY DO think THEIR religion is the better one and they DO want to spread their believes...remember the "holy war"... :eek:kashii:
 
you know, some of you sound like real hypocrites, because te very same things you are saying about them and how they should all die is the very sme thing they are saying about us. true, they are criminals, but your mindsets seem rather alike, but your cultures re different so you don't kill others
 
RockLee said:
THEY DO think THEIR religion is the better one and they DO want to spread their believes...
Ah, you're talking of the Southern Baptists, are you? :p

But, actually, I think you're right about those guys who did the beheading: they are sick. You must be quite out of your mind if you think cutting throats on video or blowing up dozens of (mostly innocent) people would change anything in your favour.
 
bossel said:
Ah, you're talking of the Southern Baptists, are you? :p

:D That is so funny. Only because I live in the 'Bible Belt' and have them all around me! They seem to be running cults. It's very scary.

Anyway...
 
RockLee said:
Look...they BOTH make mistakes...they BOTH did wrong things, but America doesn't show pictures,movies WORLDWIDE of snuff(killing ppl for fun)...yeah this is what I call it..these ppl are just sick(just as the american/british rascist soldiers who did such an awefull thing)and shouldn't be doing such awefull things....but this is just because they are primitive :eek:kashii: and to the ppl who think they don't want to globalize THEIR religion(wich is at the (some kind of) base of wars) is wrong, THEY DO think THEIR religion is the better one and they DO want to spread their believes...remember the "holy war"... :eek:kashii:

First, let me start by saying that I think among all the contradictory, and derogatory statements fueled by ignorance that have stemmed from the various comments in this thread alone, that is by far the most ignorant, and to me, the most offensive.

Now, that I got that out of the way, what makes you state the claim that these freedom fighters are primitive?
 
Well...with primitive I mean that these ppl don't even use common sense and just shoot everything on site that is "evil" in their opinion...they have no moral values...they just want to obtain their goal and do not care for other things, after all these years they still didn't develop to some kind of NICE warfare, but still use methods like decapitating and broadcast in on television..so that's what I think is primitive...

hey everybody has his own opinions, I didn't say you have to accept it so if you're offended by it...it because you chose to be!
 
senseiman said:
No offence intended, but this type of judgementalism is just stupid. No, we haven't seen US troops be-heading Iraqis on TV, but we have seen pictures of them gloating over the corpses of Iraqi prisoners they have just beaten to death. Please explain to me how one is better than the other. I'm all ears.

Firstly, our soldiers haven't kidnapped and held hostages, and then attempted to blackmail their government by showing them screaming and begging not to be killed.

Secondly, our TV stations wouldn't broadcast such videos to the public, cheering the terrorists on and generating just the effect they want. The fact they were shown on a legal TV channel is a perfect example of the difference between the UK/US and Iraq, and a perfect example of their primitive, backwards, religion-inspired culture.

You already explained yourself how one is better than the other, there's a less than subtle difference between holding someone hostage and then brutally executing them and chanting the name of a nonexistent god, and gloating over an enemy soldier's corpse (put yourself in a front line soldiers shoes? I reckon I'd do it too), in fact it's a huge difference.
 
Areku said:
You already explained yourself how one is better than the other, there's a less than subtle difference between holding someone hostage and then brutally executing them and chanting the name of a nonexistent god, and gloating over an enemy soldier's corpse (put yourself in a front line soldiers shoes? I reckon I'd do it too), in fact it's a huge difference.

At the end, there is not much of a difference. Beheaded by Islamic extremists or having your face blown off by Coalition troops, you still end up dead which is whats important. Both sides are commiting horrible acts of violence. Beheading a live human being is a cruel and inhumane way of executing somebody but what is equally cruel and inhumane is the murdering of civilians to bring peace or liberty or security or whatever reason the troops the fighting in Iraq have. So far, the USA and its allies are responsible for over 13,000 civilians deaths.

Now I am not saying that this justifies beheading prisoners, but I am saying that both sides have committed horrible acts of violence against humanity and that the longer the USA and its allies try to "rebuild" Iraq (which means cleaning up the horrible mess they made) the more people will be beheaded and the more civilians will be killed.
 
RockLee said:
Well...with primitive I mean that these ppl don't even use common sense and just shoot everything on site that is "evil" in their opinion...they have no moral values...they just want to obtain their goal and do not care for other things, after all these years they still didn't develop to some kind of NICE warfare, but still use methods like decapitating and broadcast in on television..so that's what I think is primitive...

hey everybody has his own opinions, I didn't say you have to accept it so if you're offended by it...it because you chose to be!

they do indeed have morals, they're just waaaay different from ours. For example, i think they would find it a sin or wrong to not try to kill the 'evil, infidel' americans. *shrugs* shows you how twisted humans can be...
 
butttttttttt.....they didn't always have those 'morals' you mention -> kill americans...
So it's not a moral *sigh* I said they kill EVERYONE who isn't doing it their way, so not only Americans....god why does everybody think the world is all about America ^_- ??
 
Foxtrot Uniform said:
At the end, there is not much of a difference. Beheaded by Islamic extremists or having your face blown off by Coalition troops, you still end up dead which is whats important.
Both sides are commiting horrible acts of violence. Beheading a live human being is a cruel and inhumane way of executing somebody but what is equally cruel and inhumane is the murdering of civilians to bring peace or liberty or security or whatever reason the troops the fighting in Iraq have.

I would argue that there is much of a difference. War is more than just trying to kill your enemy, and the Geneva convention applies to it. There are guidelines we have to follow, as moral nations, in the conduct of war. Ie. no unneccesary suffering of the enemy, no torture, etc. A Coalition soldier shooting an Iraqi soldier in the head is humane, as far as the context of war goes. When you're in a situation where you're fighting another force, you have to shoot to kill and it's as fair as you can be in that situation. Likewise if you capture POW's, you have an obligation to treat them with some respect. Now, I know some coalition troops have broke this by 'torturing' iraqi soldiers, but firstly, these acts have been damned by our respective leaders, and the perpetrators prosecuted, but also in my eyes, it was hardly 'torture' anyway. It was humiliation, which is still wrong, but in a totally different field to torture.

Capturing someone, using them as blackmail and publically executing them is clearly unacceptable, compared to merely shooting someone in a battle situation.

So far, the USA and its allies are responsible for over 13,000 civilians deaths.

I can't really comment on that, as I don't know why that'd happen. Shooting recklessly? Maybe it's hard for them to tell who's an enemy and who's not.

But anyway, they all believe in god and stuff, so they'll be going to heaven... :balloon:

Now I am not saying that this justifies beheading prisoners, but I am saying that both sides have committed horrible acts of violence against humanity and that the longer the USA and its allies try to "rebuild" Iraq (which means cleaning up the horrible mess they made) the more people will be beheaded and the more civilians will be killed.

true.
 
RockLee said:
god why does everybody think the world is all about America ^_- ??

Because...America tried their best to make the world be like them. Ain't gonna work, no matter how hard the Government tries.
 
Areku said:
Firstly, our soldiers haven't kidnapped and held hostages, and then attempted to blackmail their government by showing them screaming and begging not to be killed.

Kidnapped? No. But the overwhelming majority of Iraqis held by coalition forces are innocent of any crime (60% according to the US military, 90% according to the red cross). They have just been 'swept up' (ie grabbed off the street) in big securtiy operations because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is no presumption of innocence or right to legal counsel, the troops can just grab whoever they want at any time, which is pretty much tantamount to kidnapping. Given the massive difference in scale (thousands vs. dozens) I would say that the coalition has little right to be taking the moral high ground.

Areku said:
Secondly, our TV stations wouldn't broadcast such videos to the public, cheering the terrorists on and generating just the effect they want. The fact they were shown on a legal TV channel is a perfect example of the difference between the UK/US and Iraq, and a perfect example of their primitive, backwards, religion-inspired culture. [

For starters, the only Iraqi TV channel is run by the Americans. Secondly, no TV channel has shown the images of people being executed, they have all cut the footage before the actual killings. Thirdly, pretty much all the US and European networks showed the EXACT SAME footage of the hostages as the Arab networks did. I'm afraid your ignorant racism and bigotry are not supported by the facts on this one, unless you are saying that Europe and the US are primitive, backwards, religion-inspired cultures too.

Areku said:
You already explained yourself how one is better than the other, there's a less than subtle difference between holding someone hostage and then brutally executing them and chanting the name of a nonexistent god, and gloating over an enemy soldier's corpse (put yourself in a front line soldiers shoes? I reckon I'd do it too), in fact it's a huge difference.

I said nothing of the sort. I used to be a soldier myself and I know that if I was in their shoes I would have been disgusted by what went on in those prisons. Those were not "front line soldiers", they were MPs (rear-echelon troops in military jargon) working in a fortified prison camp. They were not gloating over the corpses of Iraqis they had just killed in a tense firefight, they were gloating over the corpses of unarmed, bound and gagged Iraqis they had just beaten to death for their own sick pleasure. These gaurds were absolute scum of the earth and I make no distinction between them and the Al-quaida scum who cut the head off of that Korean contractor. Murderous scum is murderous scum. As for that nonexistant god, every American and British troops who prays to get out of that hellhole alive is praying to the same god.
 
RockLee said:
Well...with primitive I mean that these ppl don't even use common sense and just shoot everything on site that is "evil" in their opinion...they have no moral values...they just want to obtain their goal and do not care for other things, after all these years they still didn't develop to some kind of NICE warfare, but still use methods like decapitating and broadcast in on television..so that's what I think is primitive...

hey everybody has his own opinions, I didn't say you have to accept it so if you're offended by it...it because you chose to be!

I'm sorry, but you trying to make a point is like watching a monkey with a wristwatch.

But seriously, you should get a career in landscaping. You seem to be quite skilled in digging holes for yourself.

Okay, enough sarcasm, let me get some things straight. Are you referring to the freedom fighters in Iraq, or terrorist organisations like Al-Qaida?
 
senseiman said:
Kidnapped? No. But the overwhelming majority of Iraqis held by coalition forces are innocent of any crime (60% according to the US military, 90% according to the red cross). They have just been 'swept up' (ie grabbed off the street) in big securtiy operations because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is no presumption of innocence or right to legal counsel, the troops can just grab whoever they want at any time, which is pretty much tantamount to kidnapping. Given the massive difference in scale (thousands vs. dozens) I would say that the coalition has little right to be taking the moral high ground.
[/quote]

When you say 'held' what exactly do you mean? I bet it's a bit of a step away from being paraded around with blindfolds on, or told to read messages to your home country to try and get them to pull out of the country. Or being executed.


For starters, the only Iraqi TV channel is run by the Americans. Secondly, no TV channel has shown the images of people being executed, they have all cut the footage before the actual killings. Thirdly, pretty much all the US and European networks showed the EXACT SAME footage of the hostages as the Arab networks did. I'm afraid your ignorant racism and bigotry are not supported by the facts on this one, unless you are saying that Europe and the US are primitive, backwards, religion-inspired cultures too.

According to the last I heard from the news on TV here, there was a video shown on the TV.

If I'm wrong, then I apologise and take that back.

However, the mere fact that they show some of the tape with the terrorist's demands on it is cooperating with them anyway. They know very well that the rest of the world will see that part of the tapes and that many people in Iraq will cheer when they see it aswell.

Also, if it's true that they haven't shown the videos of the westerners being executed, yet are happy to show the deaths of Iraqis, it shows double standards on their part. They claim not to have shown the death of the Italian security guard because it was 'too gruesome' but I suspect the real reason is because he struggled to get his blindfold off, said something similiar to 'you want to kill an italian? I will show you how an italian dies...' to stare the terrorists in the eyes before they killed him.

Europe and the US aren't backward, religion-inspired cultures, on the whole (I can't say that for the Bible Belt) and this is evident from more than just what we show on TV. I fail to see the racism or bigotry. If I said 'all Iraqis are scum because they are Iraqi' then that would be racism.

The demand of "The Italian government should apologize in the name of its prime minister on Arabic news channels for all its actions against Islam and Muslims." made by the 'Mujahedeen Brigade' is good enough example of the difference in culture. Islam needs to be wiped off the face of the earth for humanity's sake.

I said nothing of the sort. I used to be a soldier myself and I know that if I was in their shoes I would have been disgusted by what went on in those prisons. Those were not "front line soldiers", they were MPs (rear-echelon troops in military jargon) working in a fortified prison camp. They were not gloating over the corpses of Iraqis they had just killed in a tense firefight, they were gloating over the corpses of unarmed, bound and gagged Iraqis they had just beaten to death for their own sick pleasure. These gaurds were absolute scum of the earth and I make no distinction between them and the Al-quaida scum who cut the head off of that Korean contractor. Murderous scum is murderous scum.

I meant that your own post was an explanation of the difference.

I'm aware that the first lot of pictures had REMF's in them but not the more recent ones. Still, I don't see the big deal over it. Unless you're telling me that the Iraqi's in the photos were innocent people. And I've yet to see any evidence of actual torture on UK TV/newspapers. How do you know they were beaten to death by those people?

As for that nonexistant god, every American and British troops who prays to get out of that hellhole alive is praying to the same god.

I doubt it, but nevermind.
 

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