The Beheading Video

Let's keep this civil folks. Plenty of ways to express you think someone is off their rocker without harsh humor.

Also, due to problems in the past, do not bring the value of Islam as a belief system into this thread. Take it somewhere else.

Off-topic, insensitive posts will be edited or deleted.
 
I think the values of Islam are relevant to a debate that discusses the actions/reasons in/for the war in a country against people who are fighting in it's name. The actual value of whether or not the diety exists has to be assumed as false, for the sake of logical discussion, but that's not really the issue.

but as you wish.
 
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Areku said:
When you say 'held' what exactly do you mean? I bet it's a bit of a step away from being paraded around with blindfolds on, or told to read messages to your home country to try and get them to pull out of the country. Or being executed.

From the reports I've read, the conditions of detention in US facilities are truly abominable. It is a lot more than just humiliation (which is bad enough), beatings are a regular occurence and the US military is currently investigating the deaths of at least 37 prisoners at the hands of guards.





Areku said:
However, the mere fact that they show some of the tape with the terrorist's demands on it is cooperating with them anyway.

This makes no sense. Western news agencies are showing the exact same tapes with the exact same demands, does that mean they are cooperating with the terrorists too?

Areku said:
Also, if it's true that they haven't shown the videos of the westerners being executed, yet are happy to show the deaths of Iraqis, it shows double standards on their part. They claim not to have shown the death of the Italian security guard because it was 'too gruesome' but I suspect the real reason is because he struggled to get his blindfold off, said something similiar to 'you want to kill an italian? I will show you how an italian dies...' to stare the terrorists in the eyes before they killed him.

You can't have it both ways here. First you were saying that the fact that they showed western deaths proved they were sympathetic to the terrorists, now you are saying that the fact that they don't show the deaths of western hostages shows the same thing. Doesn't this strike you as being contradictory? And even if it weren't contradictory it still doesn't bear up under scrutiny because the Arab networks do report on western deaths (ie US soldiers killed in Iraq), they just decline to broadcast gruesome images (much like CNN, the BBC, FOX, CBS, etc did). Their (al Jazeera and Al arabiya, the two Arab satellite networks) standards are the exact same as those of western media outlets and I really think the argument that these stations are supporting terrorists is absolutely absurd. The bit about why the Italian hostage being executed wasn't aired is just nuts, western media outlets were given the same tape and they chose to censor it too, including networks that supported the war.

areku said:
Europe and the US aren't backward, religion-inspired cultures, on the whole (I can't say that for the Bible Belt) and this is evident from more than just what we show on TV. I fail to see the racism or bigotry. If I said 'all Iraqis are scum because they are Iraqi' then that would be racism.

Well, lets look again at what you said,

areku said:
...a perfect example of the difference between the US/UK and Iraq, and a perfect example of their primitive, backwards, religion-inspired culture.

Might not fit the textbook definition of racism, but it certainly sounds pretty bigoted to me. Blanket statements about how primitive other people's cultures are made by people who obviously have no idea what they are talking about certainly don't deserve any respect.

areku said:
I'm aware that the first lot of pictures had REMF's in them but not the more recent ones. Still, I don't see the big deal over it. Unless you're telling me that the Iraqi's in the photos were innocent people. And I've yet to see any evidence of actual torture on UK TV/newspapers. How do you know they were beaten to death by those people?

So beating people to death is OK in your book? Well, I guess if you support genocide its not that big a deal by comparison. 37 prisoners have been killed by guards in US facilities. That figure doesn't include cases where guards were subduing dangerous prisoners or doing other things that fell within their rules. These are all being treated as homicides by the military.



areku said:
I doubt it, but nevermind.

Not that it makes any difference, but Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same god. Look it up.
 
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Akeru - bringing in the values of some extreme Muslims in a discussion of motivation behind these terrorist acts is one thing.

Saying
Islam needs to be wiped off the face of the earth for humanity's sake.
is an irresponsible and off topic comment.

It does not belong on this forum. You are entitled to you opinion, but comments like yours have sent otherwise great threads off on tangents of name calling and ill-will. The Internet is full of sites where you can discuss these issues at great length and make as many broad and unsupported comments as you like.

This is not going to be one of them. I thank you in advance for reviewing our forum policy and if you wish to discuss this issue further, please feel free to PM me.

Sorry to those whose posts I had to edit. Futher off-topic posts will be summarily deleted.
 
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@Winter: I mean with THEM --> terrorists, not freedom fighters, because they aren't freedom fighters...these ppl are primitive in my opinion because they don't keep themselves to the rules of the game(Geneva convention)...oh and please...keep your sarcasm to yourself ...or go in politics ;) It's my opinion, and I told you allready that you don't have to agree with it...
 
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RockLee said:
@Winter: I mean with THEM --> terrorists, not freedom fighters, because they aren't freedom fighters...these ppl are primitive in my opinion because they don't keep themselves to the rules of the game(Geneva convention)

Wait a second - so according to your logic, America and its allies are also primitive because so far they haven't been keeping to the rules either. Thay have not been following the rules of the Geneva Convention, and nobody seems to really care!

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

According to clause 1 of article 3 of the Geneva convention, civilians are not supposed to be killed. Again, those 13,000 civilian casualties caused be America and its allies.

"outrages upon personal dignity"? The prisoners who were humiliated?

"Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture"? What about those 37 prisoners who were murdered?

Prisoners of war shall not in any case be transferred to penitentiary establishments (prisons, penitentiaries, convict prisons, etc.) to undergo disciplinary punishment therein.

All premises in which disciplinary punishments are undergone shall conform to the sanitary requirements set forth in Article 25. A prisoner of war undergoing punishment shall be enabled to keep himself in a state of cleanliness, in conformity with Article 29.

According to article 97 of the Geneva Convention, the prisoners that are being held on Guantanamo bay should not be punished there and they should at least be allowed to stay clean instead of being put in a tiny cage for weeks.

Now, according to the US, they arent POW because of some BS reason, but if you read article 4 of Part 1 of the Geneva Convention, you will see that they should be labeled as POW's.

They should also have the right be sentenced of their crime and a fair trial, but whats even worse is that many of the prisoners are non-combatants.
 
i didnt see the korean beheading video and i dont think i want to. i did however see the american beheading video. i seriously felt like puking right there. how can you just saw off someones head with your knife and hold up a decapitated head to the camera. dont they even have at least a little respect for the person they just killed? dumb question, they live in a really twisted society.
 
Genius said:
i didnt see the korean beheading video and i dont think i want to. i did however see the american beheading video. i seriously felt like puking right there. how can you just saw off someones head with your knife and hold up a decapitated head to the camera. dont they even have at least a little respect for the person they just killed? dumb question, they live in a really twisted society.

twisted? it's all relative. beheading is a traditional form of capital punishment in the middle east. some might ask how in americans can strap a man to a chair and run electric current through him until he dies in extreme agony. that seems only slightly less twisted. you also have to remember that not too long ago, in the american south people filmed lynchings and took pics and considered it all great fun.
 
yeah....people can be so cruel....look at the past :S....
 
ashuri2 said:
twisted? it's all relative. beheading is a traditional form of capital punishment in the middle east. some might ask how in americans can strap a man to a chair and run electric current through him until he dies in extreme agony. that seems only slightly less twisted. you also have to remember that not too long ago, in the american south people filmed lynchings and took pics and considered it all great fun.
I didn't watch any of these beheading videos, but if I'm correct, the guys were beheaded with knives (as Genius said, head "sawed off").
This is not the traditional form of decapitation. I think, it should be with one clear cut, usually with a sword.
Else, I agree.
 
Kind of a grim aside, but from what I have read about historical seppuku (harakiri / when samurai killed themselves) cutting of a head cleanly is no easy task. It was considered a dishonor if you aided in seppuku and could not cut off the head in one go. The spine complicates things as it is in the way of making a clean cut, and it takes a great deal of power and a fair amount of skill. Things get a bit easier if you use a block and an ax as was popular in Europe, but the Middle East used/uses curved blades and no block-type accessories.

The terrorists had to saw into their victims probably because they lacked the ability to do otherwise. Plus it is more shocking, if such a thing can be more shocking.
 
Oh, how can human life be cheapened to that of cattle...slaughtered like a lamb, was he. :auch: :eek:kashii:
 
I saw a movie once also with a knife...snuff...man I almost puked my guts out...how can ppl put something like that on the net?? :( it's just sick !!
 

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