The Celts of Iberia

[Smertrius]

The Main subclade in Galicia is R1b (57%) , while E-M78 is 9%

R1b is not a subsclade.

 

[Smertrius]

Neither the map of E-M81 which is of Europe 2000 years ago...
What is more reliable, a study of europe 2000 years ago, or a genetic study of the 2008 wich I showed to you ?? Seriously..Don't be that stupid
http://download.cell.com/AJHG/pdf/PIIS0002929708005922.pdf?intermediate=true
Answer this :
Origin of S-116 ?? Where it first appeared ? Who brought it ? Sources ?

You're not really in position to call anyone stupid Wilhelm...

1) There's no study of Europe 2000 years ago, it's based on nowadays genetic tests, what did you imagine ?

2) There's a big difference between making an average map based on various studies, and trying to retrace migrations in time and space, it should go without saying. The first is mathematic, the second is based on genetic, archeology, linguistic, etc...

 

[Wilhelm]

R1b is not a subsclade.

Are you blind or what ?? Dont you see the colors in the map , which represent the subclades of the R1b ? Dont you see in the table that the subclade M-269 represents the 52% ? Dont you see that E-M81 is only 9% ? Dont you see that E-M81 is not the main subclade ?? Btw, Im still waiting the answers on this :
Origin of S-116 ?? Where it first appeared ? Who brought it ? Sources ?

 

[Wilhelm]

You're not really in position to call anyone stupid Wilhelm...

1) There's no study of Europe 2000 years ago, it's based on nowadays genetic tests, what did you imagine ?

2) There's a big difference between making an average map based on various studies, and trying to retrace migrations in time and space. It should go without saying, the first is mathematic, not the second.

the genetics of 2000 years ago are not the same as today..so it is stupid to say that today in Galicia, the E-M81 is the main subclade, when other studies based on reality and not on guessing the past, clearly show that E-M81 is a MINORITARY subclade, and not the main subclade as you claim..

 

[Smertrius]

Are you blind or what ?? Dont you see the colors in the map , which represent the subclades of the R1b ? Dont you in the table that the subclade M-269 represents the 52% ? Dont you see that E-M81 is only 9% ? Dont you see that E-M81 is not the main subclade ?? Btw, Im still waiting the answers on this :
Origin of S-116 ?? Where it first appeared ? Who brought it ? Sources ?

the genetics of 2000 years ago are not the same as today..so it is stupid to say that today in Galicia, the E-M81 is the main subclade, when other studies based on reality and not on guessing the past, clearly show that E-M81 is a MINORITARY subclade, and not the main subclade as you claim..

Don't you understand that we're all M-269 ?
Don't you understand that the genetic of 2000 years ago is based on today findings without the possible genetic influences brought by the various migrations that have occured since 2000 years, and that E-M81 is a BC haplogroup ?
For the rest of your questions i don't feel like repeating.

 

[Wilhelm]

Don't you understand that we're all M-269 ?
Don't you understand that the genetic of 2000 years ago is based of todays findings without the possible genetic influences brought by the various migrations that have occured since 2000 years and that E-M81 is a BC haplogroup ?
For the rest of your questions i don't feel like repeating.

No, we are not all M-269. Sources ?
You still didn't refute why the 9% number of E-M81 is wrong.. What is wrong with that number? What is wrong with that study ?
You never asnwer my questions...no sources, no evidences, no nothing...just acting like you know everything but everyone here can clearly see that you don't know S.hit...
you rely on a map of a study of 2000 years, and I rely on a 2008 study...see . Ask Maciamo about E-M81 in Galicia, you'll see if it is the main subclade or not...

 

[Smertrius]

No, we are not all M-269. Sources ?

I mean that we're all belonging (European R1b) to the various subsclades of M-269. And don't ask for sources, it's evident when you look at the R1b tree.

You still didn't refute why the 9% of E-M81 is wrong ?? What is wrong ?? You never asnwer my questions...no sources, no evidences, no nothing...
just acting like you know everytinh but you clearly show you don't know S.hit...
you rely on a MAP of 2000 years ago, and I rely on a 2008 study...see

It's not wrong, it's just not enough. Eupedia's maps are based on more than one study.

 

[Wilhelm]

I mean that we're all belonging (European R1b) to the various subsclade of M-269. And don't ask for sources, it's evident when you look at the R1b tree.

And ??
You have changed the topic now, we were talking about the posible Celtic sub-clades. Descendants of M-269, thats's OBVIOUS

It's not wrong, it's just not enough. Eupedia's map are based on more than one study.

Again, the map is intended to represent Europe 2000 years ago...Not reliable when speaking of today..

 

[Smertrius]

Again, the map is intended to represent Europe 2000 years ago...Not reliable when speaking of today..

And what does it changes in Galicia's case? Do you think that the invasions that took place the last 2000 years changed dramatically the genetic situation there?

 

[Smertrius]

Are you blind or what ?? Dont you see the colors in the map , which represent the subclades of the R1b ? Dont you see in the table that the subclade M-269 represents the 52% ?

I know that Galicia is mainly R1b if that's what you're insisting on, what i say is that E-M81 is higher than the highest subsclade among R1b ones, and that's what characterise Galicia from a genetical point of view in opposition to Brittany and the British Isles situation.
I thought it was obvious that it was what I meant since my first post tonight.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I know that Galicia is mainly R1b if that's what you're insisting on, what i say is that E-M81 is higher than the highest subsclade among R1b ones, and that's what characterise Galicia from a genetical point of view in opposition to Brittany and the British Isles situation.
I thought it was obvious that it was what I meant since my first post tonight.

Smertrius, you are going nowhere with your arguments. Now you are starting to distort facts and gravitating towards bullspit. Let's end this crap before your credibility is completely shot. Find a new hobby...

 

[Wilhelm]

Where is my study ?

I quote Eupedia, isn't it clear enough ?

"Large font = over 25% of the population
Small font = between 10 and 25% of the population".

S-116 is labelled Italo-Celtic, and is probably way less found than his various susclades. The ones found nowadays in NE France, SW Germany and closest areas can be considered Celtic, not the ones found in Catalonia or the Basque country.

And what are this sublcades that you talk about?
Catalonia and Basque country ? No, im talking about all Iberia, not just these parts

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

And what are this sublcades that you talk about?
Catalonia and Basque country ? No, im talking about all Iberia, not just these parts

For heavens sake S-116 is heavy in Iberia. Someone is operating from freaking Mars here.

 

[callaeca]

Galicia E-M81 6'3% Cruciani et al. 2009, 4,7% si no recuerdo mal en Salas. ¿Ahora bien, Smertrius, que tiene que ver este clan caucásico en todo esto, si en parte va a afectar a las lenguas celtas?

Vamos a ver, ¿has entendido?:

Eu18 and Eu19 characterize about 50% of the European Y chromosomes.
Although they share M173, the two haplotypes show contrasting geographic distribution. The frequency of Eu18 decreases from west to east, being most frequent in Basques. This lineage includes the previously described proto-European lineage that is characterized by the 49a,f haplotype 15. In contrast, haplotype Eu19, which is derived from the M173 lineage and is distinguished by M17, is virtually absent in Western Europe. Its frequency increases eastward and reaches a maximum in Poland, Hungary, and Ukraine, where Eu18 in turn is virtually absent.(cf. Chiaroni Jacques; Underhill Peter A; Cavalli-Sforza Luca L.: Y chromosome diversity, human expansion, drift, and cultural evolution, 2009).

¿Acaso refutas la opinión, no sólo de este trabajo, sino de anteriores en el mismo sentido? ¿Demuéstrame entonces lo contrario de lo que Chiaroni, McEvoy, Toth o a Bradley han analizado? ¿cómo puedes explicarme entonces este gráfico acerca de las "pocas relaciones" genéticas entre Britania y BAsconia, que pretendes demostrar en tus mapas, en la que se mezclan variedades de marcadores HLA, cuando YO ME REFIERO EXACTAMENTE A VARIEDADES DE MARCADORES HLA extraidos de R1b?

Explícalo!!!!

Tu R1a (M17 o Eu19), el gran símbolo indoeuropeo, ha quedado en ser un simple derivado del atlántico R-M173, que al mismo tiempo se nos muestra regulado por Mtdna H1 y H3. Yo no tengo sentido de identificación étnica alguna, Smertrius, y menos de considerarme como la perfecta celta del mundo, porque me delata mi origen suébica (mis antepasados más remotos conocidos se remontan al año 872), aunque no hace falta ir muy lejos, Smertrius, para identificar a tus celtas centro-europeos bajo ambos componentes genéticos. Mira los mapas porcentuales, amigo mio, no hay duda de lo que nos relatan.

El que después las gentes de Bohemia o del Rin ocupasen las tierras de la Galia es un hecho secundario, de cultura, y que ya nada tiene que ver con la Península Ibérica. Aqui no hay lenguas derivadas de La Tène o de Hallastatt, son muy anteriores, o ¿refutas también a Kristiansen (2001: 445, n. 3 y 471), James (2005: 21),Toth (2009:321), Prósper (2002, 25-26), Bernardo Stempel (2002, 97ff.) y hasta tu adorado Kruta (2001, 41), que nos dice que la formación de la lengua celta pudo haberse inciado en el 3000 a.C.?

¿Cuáles son tu evidencias en contrario? ¿Las élites guerreras centro-europeas? Esa idea ha sido plasmada hace ya 15 años en una docena de libros publicados, y que se han demostrado no ser válida como teoría con personajes como Viriato en la Península y con la tipología bélica peninsular.

Claro que es cierto que R1B se presenta en muchos europeos, pero la cuestión es que la mayor parte de sus variedades se originan en la Península Ibérica o a partir de la Península, y se esparcen por todo el continente europeo, entre todas las poblaciones, y entre ellas, las que tu consideras como celtas (que no deja de ser un término peyorativo en boca de un romano). Mismo el indefinido R1b DYS392 con valor 14, se nos muestra como originario e identitario de la Península Ibérica, y en su variedad de haplotipos todos parten de allí y se extienden por Oeste, Norte y Centro de Europa. Incluso marcadores caucásicos específicamente peninsulares.

¿Qué son tus celtas, Smertrius? Gentes protoibéricas, advenidas históricamente con mutaciones genéticas recientes, aunque siempre bajo la irrefutable tutela ancestral de R-M173 y H1/H3. No hay celtas sin estos dos componentes genéticos mayoritarios, o ¿puedes demostrarme lo contrario?.

Demuéstramelo Smertrius, sé que puedes hacerlo.

 

[Wilhelm]

The descendants of M269 :

 

[Wilhelm]

I know that Galicia is mainly R1b if that's what you're insisting on, what i say is that E-M81 is higher than the highest subsclade among R1b ones, and that's what characterise Galicia from a genetical point of view in opposition to Brittany and the British Isles situation.
I thought it was obvious that it was what I meant since my first post tonight.

7.46% of E-M81 in Galicia according to this (Maciamo used this same tables ) :
http://iberianroots.com/statistics/iberian_peninsula.html

 

[callaeca]

Smertrius said: "H3 and H1 represent 28% of the Mtdna in Spain, 26% in Portugal, 20% in Ireland, but also 21% in Finland or 30% in Norway".

No, you must count H1 + H3 iberian aportation, f.e. mtDNA-Haplogroup H Welsh 59.8%, Galicians 59.2%, Basques 57.8% Piedmont 56.8%, Valencians 53.33%, or 42% in the Alps. About its influence you must read: Wilson et al.: Genetic evidence for different male and female roles during cultural transitions in the British Isles, 2001: "The second explanation is that the European Paleolithic populations were originally distinct from the current European population for both the Y chromosome and other parts of the genome, but this distinctiveness was eroded subsequently by female movements between the Celtic-speaking and non-Basque European populations".

 

[Smertrius]

And ??
You have changed the topic now, we were talking about the posible Celtic sub-clades. Descendants of M-269, thats's OBVIOUS

The topic was about the main subsclade in Galicia, and you come up with R1b3/M-269 charts which don't make much sense. R1b3 is now R1b1b2 btw, your studies must be old.

And what are this sublcades that you talk about?

R-S28 and R-L21, to which the La Tène Celts probably belonged in their vast majority, two subsclades not significantly found in Iberia today. I don't mean to say that they are the markers of Celticity, just that the Celts belonged to them.

Catalonia and Basque country ? No, im talking about all Iberia, not just these parts

I quoted the Basque country and Catalonia because the most distinctives susclades of S-116 found in Iberia are Basque R-M153 and Catalonian R-M167 which also proves that S-116 is not "Celtic" contrary to what you think.
Now if you know precisely what are the subsclades of R1b which are the most commonly found in the rest of the Peninsula you're welcome to post it.

 

[Smertrius]

Smertrius, you are going nowhere with your arguments. Now you are starting to distort facts and gravitating towards bullspit. Let's end this crap before your credibility is completely shot. Find a new hobby...

I don't care about my internet credibility, especially when it comes to Genetics and Y-DNA discussions. I don't belong to that kind of racially insecure or rich enough peoples who take it very seriously and don't mind spending hundreds of dollars just to have the pleasure to know what letter of the alphabet they belong to...

For heavens sake S-116 is heavy in Iberia. Someone is operating from freaking Mars here.

S-116 is heavily found in Iberia because his non-Celtic subsclades M153 and M167 are heavily found there. Who's operating from Mars for heavens sake ?

 

[Wilhelm]

The topic was about the main subsclade in Galicia, and you come up with R1b3/M-269 charts which don't make much sense. R1b3 is now R1b1b2 btw, your studies must be old.


R-S28 and R-L21, to which the La Tène Celts probably belonged in their vast majority, two subsclades not significantly found in Iberia today. I don't mean to say that they are the markers of Celticity, just that the Celts belonged to them.

And what makes you think that S28 and L21 are the exclusively considered Celts and not the others descendants of S-116, like M-167 ??
This is ridiculous...
By the way the S28 and L21 are also found in Iberia...

I quoted the Basque country and Catalonia because the most distinctives susclades of S-116 found in Iberia are Basque R-M153 and Catalonian R-M167 which also proves that S-116 is not "Celtic" contrary to what you think.
Now if you know precisely what are the subsclades of R1b which are the most commonly found in the rest of the Peninsula you're welcome to post it.

All the S-116 branch is Celtic