The Celts of Iberia

[Reixach]

En Aragon el aporte I es el mayor de toda Espa?a, pero parece ser que esta asociado al I2a de origen paleolitico, al igual que en el Pais Vasco. Los datos de esa p?gina sale un I generico dando un porcentaje muy importante del I2a, pero sin especificar si el resto es de origen centroeuropeo, en total Aragon tiene casi un 20%.

 

[Wilhelm]

Another M167 and S28 map

LOL, so according to your theory Poland is more Celtic than Iberia

 

[Smertrius]

One key piece of evidence is the earliest written language of western Europe – Tartessian, found on inscribed stones in Portugal and Spain dating back to between 800BC and 400BC. The professor maintains this language can be deciphered as Celtic.

Even if the language could be deciphered as Celtic, it would not prove anything since it's not older than 800BC.

Expert on Welsh history and archaeology Dr Raimund Karl, says there is also biological and genetic evidence to support professor Koch’s theory.

He said: “In the last couple of years there have been a number of genetic studies of human DNA indicating that the population of much of the western part of the British Isles is related to other communities along the Atlantic seafront. These include Brittany, northern Spain, Portugal and the French Atlantic coast. That’s their genetic origin.”

That's just the Atlantic Modal Haplogroup once again.

 

[Wilhelm]

Seg�n los analisis de http://www.isogg.org/tree/ en Galicia el aporte centroeuropeo se puede determinar por el haplogrupo I2b de origen germanico, supuestamente suevo y el I1 de origen nordico y baltico, posiblemente visigodo, teniendo en Galicia una proporci�n total de 5 a 9-12% (hay porcentajes del haplogrupo I "generico" sin especificar mas). Geneticamente la influencia fue importante. En Asturias el aporte de origen nordico, visigodo, del I1 es del 4-8% (en Galicia el 3-6%), el mayor de toda la peninsula iberica, coherente con la historia tradicional en que los visigodos se concentraron en Asturias y a partir de ah� empezaron con la reconquista.

Muchos visigodos no eran I1, sino R1b. Los visigodos no eran nórdicos sino Germánicos en lo que es la actual Alemania.

 

[Smertrius]

LOL, so according to your theory Poland is more Celtic than Iberia

I have no theory, i just post another map i found, stop your inutile LOLing.

 

[Wilhelm]

I have no theory, i just post another map i found, stop your LOLing.

Yes, you have a theory, and you explained it to me, you said :
Celtic = S28 and L21 . Therefore , that makes Poland more Celtic than Iberia, according to you...LAUGHABLE

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Of course, you can't imagine how much I feel persecuted as a French by the celticity of Spaniards and Portugueses...
I understand your concern about the stereotypes projected by some people but saying that Iberians are Celts will not change anything in their minds, they will just say that things dramatically changed after 711; so I don't think that I'm "working" in anyway for those intra-race racists.

Then don't feed their ignorance and prejudice with your constant denial of Iberian celticity. That is what you are doing, indirectly...

The "genetics" of celticity are hardly specific to one or two groups, rather they are associative. That is, there are some strongly shared characteristics between peoples of Celtic culture in various regions of Europe, particularly the West.

711 changed little genetically in Iberia. You certainly know that and the rest of the world will eventually know it as well, trust me. The dust-bin of history is wide open for the charlatans and the pathetic brain-dead racists...

You deny everything, even when the evidence is abundantly clear. I can just imagine what you will say if it is fully proven that the Celtic cradle is in Iberia and not Central Europe. I even recall you stating that the Tartessian script recently found in Portugal was not as old as the Hallstatt relics. That is completely untrue, and I'm certain you know it. The Tartessian material in question predates anything Hallstatt by more than 500 years. Check the research....and stop trying to refute the obvious.

 

[Smertrius]

@Callaeca:

Here you'll find Cruciani, that you often quoted to back you statements about the Peninsular origin of the Atlantic Modal Haplotype, saying about M269 that "The overall frequency pattern of R1b1b2 haplogroup is suggestive of multiple events of migration and expansion within Europe rather than a single and uniform spread of people from an Iberian Ice-age refugium."

 

[Smertrius]

Yes, you have a theory, and you explained it to me, you said :
Celtic = S28 and L21 . Therefore , that makes Poland more Celtic than Iberia, according to you...LAUGHABLE

I never said that, I said that they were probably mainly L21 and S28, but that doesn't mean that these subsclades are specifically Celtic nor that the Celts weren't G or I1 or whatever else too.

 

[Smertrius]

I can just imagine what you will say if it is fully proven that the Celtic cradle is in Iberia and not Central Europe.

I don't consider myself Celtic, so i wouldn't care.

I even recall you stating that the Tartessian script recently found in Portugal was not as old as the Hallstatt relics. That is completely untrue, and I'm certain you know it. The Tartessian material in question predates anything Hallstatt by more than 500 years. Check the research....and stop trying to refute the obvious.

The oldest Tartessian material possibly attesting that a Celtic language was spoken there is dating from 800BC at most, it's not 500 years before Halstatt.
And of course the Celtic language didn't pop up out of nothing with Halstatt, Halstatt is just the starting point of what is considered culturally Celtic. There were probably Celtic dialects before that but we know basically nothing about their formation.

 

[Reixach]

Que yo sepa Wilhelm los visigodos eran de origen escandinavo... si tu tienes otra informaci?n, yo tengo esa, y en escandinava el haplogrupo I1 es indicativo de ea procedencia, como explicas que en Asturias haya un porcentaje alto de I1? marcianos? vikingos? demasiado alto...

 

[Wilhelm]

Que yo sepa Wilhelm los visigodos eran de origen escandinavo... si tu tienes otra informaci�n, yo tengo esa, y en escandinava el haplogrupo I1 es indicativo de ea procedencia, como explicas que en Asturias haya un porcentaje alto de I1? marcianos? vikingos? demasiado alto...

Si, efectivamente el I1 es de origen germánico (Visigodos, Suevos, etc) yo no lo he negado !, claro que tenian, lo que digo es que tambien tenian R1b. y por lo tanto lo que quiero decir que es que el aporte germánico no solo se reduce al I1

 

[callaeca]

@Callaeca:
Here you'll find Cruciani, that you often quoted to back you statements about the Peninsular origin of the Atlantic Modal Haplotype, saying about M269 that "The overall frequency pattern of R1b1b2 haplogroup is suggestive of multiple events of migration and expansion within Europe rather than a single and uniform spread of people from an Iberian Ice-age refugium."

Si, si, nunca he negado tal cosa. La cuestión está en que el WAMH (o haplotipo 15, subclade 1.15, eu 18 o R-M153), en la variedad llamada Oisin, es secuenciable en Galicia y Norte de Portugal en un 90%, tomando todas sus variantes, señalando su afinidad con ejemplos de Irlanda en sus alleles más característicos, con secuencias de relación de +1 en la mayor parte de los casos divergentes, siendo más escasa las de +2 y mínima las de +3. Mientras, la secuencia de alleles de E-M81* llega al 4%, frente, por ejemplo, al más del 13% de Cantabria.

Una característica más respecto al E-M81* es que este haplotipo en Galicia se reparte muy desigual en su territorio, con frecuencias más altas en la mitad Centro-Sur (el centro de Galicia es curiosamente donde más registro de rutilismo, blondismo y porcentaje de ojos azules existe en Galicia), sin presencia en el Norte y no llegando al 4% en las demás zonas:

Parece ser una coincidencia, pero la mayor presencia de E-M81* coincide igualmente con la división de la variedad dialectal celta de la Callaecia Bracarense occidental (Callaeci) y la variedad dialectal de la Lucense (Celtici). Igualmente, este índice mayor de E-M81* en esta zona pueda estar en relación a la emigración masiva de maragatos leoneses en el último tercio del siglo XIX a Galicia, con asentamientos propios y variedades lingüísticas locales. Una de ellas, aún se registraba hace 30-35 años, entre septuogenarios de las inmediaciones de Vigo, concretamente en Vincios y en algunas aldeas próximas a Gondomar. Hoy está extinta (costumbre típicamente española la de su tendencia a menospreciar y mismo eliminar cualquier forma diferencial que conlleve lingüísticamente cierta identidad, un ejemplo actual es el propio exterminio del gallego).

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I don't consider myself Celtic, so i wouldn't care.


The oldest Tartessian material possibly attesting that a Celtic language was spoken there is dating from 800BC at most, it's not 500 years before Halstatt.
And of course the Celtic language didn't pop up out of nothing with Halstatt, Halstatt is just the starting point of what is considered culturally Celtic. There were probably Celtic dialects before that but we know basically nothing about their formation.

Read the research. The Tartessian tablets discovered in Portugal and deciphered as Celtic pre-date ANYTHING from Central Europe by more than 500 years. The references are substantial. Check Koch's latest book, Tartesssian: Celtic from the South-west, and his Harvard lectures for starters. Do you think Koch and the archaeologists and geneticists who lend support his theories have a hidden agenda? You probably do, don't you? What are we dealing with here, intellectual paranoia?

 

[callaeca]

Y puesto que Smertrius es muy amigo de los HLA, sigamos descubriendo esas relaciones tan insignificantes del mundo bereber en Europa.

En la identificación de HLA DR3-DQ2 tenemos su ancestral origen en el Norte de Africa y allegado a Europa, por las dos rutas conocidas del haplogrupo M-E80*, Sardinia y el SW hispánico.

Aquí te pongo la lista de frecuencias, desde luego muy sorprendente en algunos casos:

Sardinia 22.0%, País Vasco 22.0%, W Irlanda 21.5%, Irlanda (resto) 17.0%, Suecia 15.9%, Gales 14.7%, Bélgica 15.7%, Holanda 13.2%, Inglaterra 12.4%, España 12.0%, Yugoslavia 11.5%, Cornualles 11.4%, Dinamarca 11.3%, Polonia 10.7%, Suiza 11.6%, Paris 10.1%.

Su frecuencia va bajando a medida que nos alejamos hacia el Este y Sureste, y parece tener una distribución relacionada con R-M173.

Se conocen dos propagaciones. 1) HLA A1-B8-DR3-DQ2 (AH8.1, super b8, ancestral MHC 8.1 o 8.1 ancestral haplotype) Origen: introducido por poblaciones de Asia central u Oriente Próximo, emigrados a la Iberia desde el Norte de Africa y antes del Neolítico; desde Iberia sigue hacia el oeste y centro de Europa (muy relacionado, por lo que veo, con la cuestion atlántica). 2) HLA A30-B18-DR3-DQ2, desde el Norte de Africa a Sardinia, Iberia, Francia e Italia. La introgresión en Europa de HLA A30-B18-DR3-DQ2 está en relación con la introducción del trigo.

Respecto a HLA A30-Cw5-B18, las frecuencias también resultan muy sorprendentes, amigo Smertrius: Sardinia 17.3%, País Vasco 15.2%, Marruecos 3.2%, Marruecos (bereber) 2.9%, Suiza 2.9%, España 2.7%, Italia 2.0%, Francia 1.7%, Túnez 1.2%, Holanda 0.8%, Alemania 0.6%.

El haplotipo Cw5-B18 (Cw*0501:B*1801), de Sardinia, tiene una clara expansión hacia Francia, Islas Británicas e Irlanda, con una frecuencia entre 1-2%, similar a la de los Tuaregs Bereberes, en donde tiene su origen, y las tribus de los Madenka, y con introgresión en estas zonas europeas durante el Neolítico.

B18-DR3 tiene sus frecuencias máximas en Sardinia y el País Vasco, y en menor medida en el resto del Norte de españa, con un nivel distinto de Cw5-B18, con una recombinación evolutiva Cw5-B18-DR3 (Cw*0501 y Cw*1201), que pudo haber tenido lugar en el NW de la Península.

Sin haber estudios de zonas como Austria, Chequia y Eslovaquia se considera que puedan tener unos niveles de frecuencia tan elevados como los observados en Suiza.

En fin, me temo que la población neolítica de origen bereber está muy, pero que muy relacionado con la introducción de la agricultura en Europa. Ahora, Smertrius, tu me dirás. También estoy empezando a entender cómo pudo haberse formado la lengua céltica.

 

[Smertrius]

Read the research. The Tartessian tablets discovered in Portugal and deciphered as Celtic pre-date ANYTHING from Central Europe by more than 500 years. The references are substantial. Check Koch's latest book, Tartesssian: Celtic from the South-west, and his Harvard lectures for starters.

No, it's well specified that the earliest written language of western Europe found on inscribed stones and that can be deciphered as Celtic in Koch's opinion is dating from between 800 and 400 BC. I checked the links you posted earlier and they say the same.
The material predating Halstatt by more than 500 years they're talking about can be archeologic or genetic (AMH) but not linguistic :

“There is evidence in Spain and Portugal indicating they were there 500 or more years before.”
One key piece of evidence is the earliest written language of western Europe – Tartessian, found on inscribed stones in Portugal and Spain dating back to between 800BC and 400BC. The professor maintains this language can be deciphered as Celtic.

What are we dealing with here, intellectual paranoia?

Only you can tell:

Do you think Koch and the archaeologists and geneticists who lend support his theories have a hidden agenda? You probably do, don't you? What are we dealing with here, intellectual paranoia?

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Smertrius:

1) No, I think your sentiments (ostensibly primal) as regards the essential topic(s) of this thread put you in a far better position to tell us if your denial of Iberian celticity is driven by intellectual paranoia, or something equivalent.

2) I love how you try to split hairs and manipulate facts. If the archaeological and genetic evidence suggests the Tartessian materials (the WRITING tablets / stones, etc.) unearthed in Portugal predate by 500 plus years anything "celtic" in Central Europe, logically, what do you think follows in the proof chain as regards language?

The linguists that are part of the Koch-Cunlffe team are currently researching the script found on the writing tablets / stones to corroborate (or refute) earlier suggestions that it is the EARLIEST form of Celtic inscription. However, there is one simple fact to keep in mind in all this: THE TABLETS THEMSELVES are more than 500 years older than any Central European artifacts - and if the writing is indeed proven beyond doubt to be Celtic - Figure it out from there...

 

[Segia]

Hello everybody,

I would like to read Koch's book, but tartessian epygraphy -wich shows certain indoeuropean anthroponymia- is far from be labeled as celtic, and even there are some problems to consider it indoeuropean -some things fit in, others don't-.

 

[callaeca]

and what is for you indoeuropean, Segia? The populations R-M15 that never arrived to the Central and West Europe or the populations R-M135 from that derives R-M15?

 

[Segia]

Have you read tartessian inscriptions? Linguists have crashed their brains trying to decipher them:

Some portuguese:

-botiea nakertoro ba te bare ba nar'kenti

-uarboiir saruneea bare nar'kenii

-lokoboniirabotoar'aikaltelokonanenar'[-]e[n?]akis'iinkoloboiiterobarebetasiioonii

I can't see anything obvious