The Celts of Iberia

[spongetaro]

Ahh, I see, you have an agenda. Think credibility guy...

You ? talking about credibility ? WOW !
Everything you post only shows how much you want Portugal to be Celt

 

[Wilhelm]

Ok, dude whatever pleases you.

 

[Brady]

Iberia has a lot of North African influences which mean that not only they aren't Celts today but never were

I TOTALLY AGREE. Arab and Berber genetic influence upon Iberia the Moorish legacy Alberta North African Genes in Iberia Studied by Y-Chromosome DNA Haplotype 5 Gérard Lucotte, Nathalie Gérard, and Géraldine Mer Abstract: The frequency of haplotype 5 at the Y-chromosome-specific DNA polymorphism (p49/TaqI) was reported in a study of 487 males originating from five different geographic locations in Iberia and North Africa. The highest frequency of haplotype 5 (68.9%) was previously observed in Berbers from Morocco, and it has been established that this haplotype is a characteristic Berber haplotype in North Africa. The relative frequencies of haplotype 5 distribution show a geographical gradient of decreasing frequency according to latitude in Iberia: 40.8% in Andalusia, 36.2% in Portugal, 12.1% in Catalonia, and 11.3% in the Basque Country; such a cline of decreasing frequency of haplotype 5 from the south to the north in Iberia clearly establishes a gene flow from North Africa towards Iberia. Key Words: DYS1,P49/TAQI, Berberian haplotype, Southwest Europe During the 7th century A.D., Muslims coming from the Arabian Peninsula and the Middle East recruited Berbers on their way to invading the north. One of the most important population movements on both sides of the Mediterranean Sea was the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula by North Africans, soon after this first Muslim invasion. More than eight centuries (from the 8th to the 15th century) of Muslim domination in the southern part of Iberia created an important cultural legacy and possible gene exchange between North African and Iberian populations. It has also been documented that genes from the Mediterranean area entered Iberia in more ancient times (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1999). http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-1807.html

 

[spongetaro]

He also said - and this is backed by scientific evidence - that 2/3 of Iberia spoke Celtic languages. If you include Para-Celtic Lusitanian you have ~ 3/4 of the Peninsula as Celtic.

Please, don't try to muddy the waters by throwing in non Celtic / Celtic influenced languages into the mix.

When Central Turkey spoke a Celtic language, Portugal was still at the para Celtic stage despite being in Western Europe.
It just show how deep the Celtic culture was there

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Having the same frequencies of EV13 than South and West Germany make us closer to Central European

/content/Spread_hg_E.gif

Region/Haplogroup

I1 ​

I2a​

I2b​

R1a​

R1b​

G2a​

J2​

J1​

E1b1b​

East Germany

19.5​

1​

3​

24​

36​

4​

2​

0​

7.5​

​

​

West Germany

13​

2.5​

7​

9​

47​

5​

5​

0​

8​

​

​

South Germany

9.5​

5​

3​

9.5​

48.5​

7.5​

5.5​

1​

7.5​

Forget haplogroups, what do the latest autosomal DNA studies show? Autosomal DNA tells you the full story.

Again, why do you have such issues with Iberian Celticity? Are you afraid of the truth? Lord...:useless:

 

[spongetaro]

He also said - and this is backed by scientific evidence - that 2/3 of Iberia spoke Celtic languages. If you include Para-Celtic Lusitanian you have ~ 3/4 of the Peninsula as Celtic.

Please, don't try to muddy the waters by throwing in non Celtic / Celtic influenced languages into the mix.

How could you explain that Central Anatolia did speak a Celtic language while Portugal didn't despite being within the "Celtic saturated" Iberia ?

 

[Wilhelm]

Arab and Berber genetic influence upon Iberia the Moorish legacy Alberta North African Genes in Iberia Studied by Y-Chromosome DNA Haplotype 5 Gérard Lucotte, Nathalie Gérard, and Géraldine Mer Abstract: The frequency of haplotype 5 at the Y-chromosome-specific DNA polymorphism (p49/TaqI) was reported in a study of 487 males originating from five different geographic locations in Iberia and North Africa. The highest frequency of haplotype 5 (68.9%) was previously observed in Berbers from Morocco, and it has been established that this haplotype is a characteristic Berber haplotype in North Africa. The relative frequencies of haplotype 5 distribution show a geographical gradient of decreasing frequency according to latitude in Iberia: 40.8% in Andalusia, 36.2% in Portugal, 12.1% in Catalonia, and 11.3% in the Basque Country; such a cline of decreasing frequency of haplotype 5 from the south to the north in Iberia clearly establishes a gene flow from North Africa towards Iberia. Key Words: DYS1,P49/TAQI, Berberian haplotype, Southwest Europe During the 7th century A.D., Muslims coming from the Arabian Peninsula and the Middle East recruited Berbers on their way to invading the north. One of the most important population movements on both sides of the Mediterranean Sea was the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula by North Africans, soon after this first Muslim invasion. More than eight centuries (from the 8th to the 15th century) of Muslim domination in the southern part of Iberia created an important cultural legacy and possible gene exchange between North African and Iberian populations. It has also been documented that genes from the Mediterranean area entered Iberia in more ancient times (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1999). http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-1807.html

These are the percentages of haplotype 5 among people who are E-M81, not to confuse with the overall population, it's only among those who are E-M81.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

When Central Turkey spoke a Celtic language, Portugal was still at the para Celtic stage despite being in Western Europe.
It just show how deep the Celtic culture was there

That's not what the Atlantic School says. They believe there were Celtic speakers in western Iberia more than 500 years prior to anything in Central Europe. You should do a little research before making broad assumptions. Start with Cunliffe and Koch (2010). There are more and more Celtic scholars who believe Celticity developed on two fronts. The Central European Cradle theory has plenty of holes...

 

[spongetaro]

Forget haplogroups, what do the latest autosomal DNA studies show? Autosomal DNA tells you the full story.

Again, why do you have such issues with Iberian Celticity? Are you afraid of the truth? Lord...:useless:

I'm not affraid of France being Latin or unrelated to Northern European.
As you said, let's forget haplogroups and tell me what Autosomal studies show about Portugal.
To which Celtic countries it is related ?
Spain is related to one Celtic country, France to almost all of them.
I'm not saying ot is good or bad because I think that most of our genetic pattern is pre-Celtic

 

[Carlitos]

Brady
More than eight centuries (from the 8th to the 15th century) of Muslim domination.

Eight centuries but then made a raid and has not been known in history, what a genetic cleansing made ​​by God, Ave Maria.

 

[Wilhelm]

I'm not affraid of France being Latin or unrelated to Northern European.
As you said, let's forget haplogroups and tell me what Autosomal studies show about Portugal.
To which Celtic countries it is related ?
Spain is related to one Celtic country, France to almost all of them.
I'm not saying ot is good or bad because I think that most of our genetic pattern is pre-Celtic

To begin with France is not a celtic country (nor Spain). Second, see this study based on autosomal where Iberians show an average of 60% of an Atlantic component made of (irish + french ) :

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-iberians.html

 

[Brady]

These are the percentages of haplotype 5 among people who are E-M81, not to confuse with the overall population, it's only among those who are E-M81.

Well the surveys don't say that, here you go in your native language: Un estudio genético revela que uno de cada cinco españoles tiene ascendencia judía y uno de cada 10 tiene genes heredados de los habitantes del Norte de África.Uno de cada tres españoles tiene marcadores genéticos de Oriente Medio o el Magreb. La revista científica ‘American Journal of Human Genetics’, publicó en su mas reciente edición los resultados de un estudio realizado en la península Ibérica por un equipo internacional de investigadores compuesto por científicos británicos, españoles, portugueses, franceses e israelíes. El grupo de investigadores que estuvo dirigido por el británico Mark Jobling de la Universidad de Leicester realizó un estudio genético entre 1.140 hombres de 18 poblaciones de la península y las Islas Baleares para determinar los orígenes genéticos de la población española. Los resultados de la investigación son sorprendentes pues sirven para desmitificar ciertas percepciones históricas que establecieron unas visiones de claros tintes racistas, islamofobas o antisemitas en algunos momentos de la historia de España. Estas percepciones históricas ligadas a eventos de la historia de España como la Reconquista, la expulsión de los judíos y de los moriscos en 1492 han prevalecido durante siglos en amplios sectores de la población española y dejaron su particular legado no solo en aspectos como la limpieza de sangre o la conversión de judíos y moros, también en la huella genética de la actual población española. Pero ahora a raíz de este esclarecedor estudio se puede producir un interesante debate entre las pruebas científicas aportadas por genética y la historia, pues según las conclusiones del estudio “un 10% de la población actual tiene características genéticas propias de los habitantes del norte de África y un 20% de los judíos sefarditas”.http://www.reinodegranada.es/blog/2...etico-revela-que-uno-de-cada-cinco-espanoles/

 

[sparkey]

No, Europe is full of people with celtic ascendency, but it doesn´t make them celts imo. The celts (like romans, vikings, dorians or goths) dissapeared.

Like Iberia, Britain was influenced genetically by the Celts, especially on the patriline, where it reaches some very high levels, like in Wales. Many of these areas still have people who speak a Celtic language as their first language. If these people aren't Celts, I don't think we can call much of anybody a Celt.

I mean, how would you categorize a Welsh-speaker from Wales? A "Germanic?" But English is often a second language to rural Welsh people, and Germanic-correlative genetics are dwarfed by Celtic-correlative genetics in Wales. Something else?

 

[spongetaro]

He also said - and this is backed by scientific evidence - that 2/3 of Iberia spoke Celtic languages. If you include Para-Celtic Lusitanian you have ~ 3/4 of the Peninsula as Celtic.

Please, don't try to muddy the waters by throwing in non Celtic / Celtic influenced languages into the mix.

Stop hidding behind the whole Iberia thing, you're living in the Iberian Peninsula but you're Portuguese above all. Being in Gaul didn't make the Aquitanian Celts, same for Lusitanian.

the big question for you is not the Celticity of Iberia but rather those of Portugal

 

[Wilhelm]

Eight centuries but then made a raid and has not been known in history, what a genetic cleansing made ​​by God, Ave Maria.

It is completely false that Iberia was ruled by muslims in 800 years. Only Granada lasted 781 years, there rest is much, much less than that. But anyways, the moors were always a minority, anywhere in the country, and their genetic legacy is minimal.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

How could you explain that Central Anatolia did speak a Celtic language while Portugal didn't despite being within the "Celtic saturated" Iberia ?

What are you trying to say? Please, you are twisting the facts. The Celtici were in the south of Portugal and spoke a Celtic language. Gallaecia (which included N. Portugal) also practiced a Celtic language (Gallaic) and the Lusitanians and Gallaecians had many cultural similarities including some Celtic language components. There were also Celtic speakers in Northern Lusitania (Wodtko, 2010). Go over the language maps and do some in-depth research.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Stop hidding behind the whole Iberia thing, you're living in the Iberian Peninsula but you're Portuguese above all. Being in Gaul didn't make the Aquitanian Celts, same for Lusitanian.

the big question for you is not the Celticity of Iberia but rather those of Portugal

Come on guy, if you believe that Portugal was less Celtic than some other parts of Iberia you must be operating in another dimension. Now, do you also have an issue with Portugal? Time to show some maturity.

 

[Wilhelm]

Well the surveys don't say that, here you go in your native language: Un estudio genético revela que uno de cada cinco españoles tiene ascendencia judía y uno de cada 10 tiene genes heredados de los habitantes del Norte de África.Uno de cada tres españoles tiene marcadores genéticos de Oriente Medio o el Magreb. La revista científica ‘American Journal of Human Genetics’, publicó en su mas reciente edición los resultados de un estudio realizado en la península Ibérica por un equipo internacional de investigadores compuesto por científicos británicos, españoles, portugueses, franceses e israelíes. El grupo de investigadores que estuvo dirigido por el británico Mark Jobling de la Universidad de Leicester realizó un estudio genético entre 1.140 hombres de 18 poblaciones de la península y las Islas Baleares para determinar los orígenes genéticos de la población española. Los resultados de la investigación son sorprendentes pues sirven para desmitificar ciertas percepciones históricas que establecieron unas visiones de claros tintes racistas, islamofobas o antisemitas en algunos momentos de la historia de España. Estas percepciones históricas ligadas a eventos de la historia de España como la Reconquista, la expulsión de los judíos y de los moriscos en 1492 han prevalecido durante siglos en amplios sectores de la población española y dejaron su particular legado no solo en aspectos como la limpieza de sangre o la conversión de judíos y moros, también en la huella genética de la actual población española. Pero ahora a raíz de este esclarecedor estudio se puede producir un interesante debate entre las pruebas científicas aportadas por genética y la historia, pues según las conclusiones del estudio “un 10% de la población actual tiene características genéticas propias de los habitantes del norte de África y un 20% de los judíos sefarditas”.http://www.reinodegranada.es/blog/2...etico-revela-que-uno-de-cada-cinco-espanoles/

Esto está basado en los haplogrupos del Y-dna, a partir del haplogrupo norte-africano E-M81 y el haplogroup J2 (que lo han considerado judio, pero no lo es, es simplemente de medio-oriente). Pero siento mucho decirte que la frecuencia de estos haplogorups en España esta dentro de lo normal en los niveles de Europa incluso INFERIORES. Por ejemplo Italia, Francia, Austria o Suiza tienen más niveles de J2 . Es más, Italia o Grecia triplican en presencia de J2 respecto de España.

 

[Carlitos]

Do not try Brady, Zapatero was at fault, that before they had completed the genetic study of a Spanish university, Zapatero launched to the media data topics to coincide with their stupid Alliance of Civilizations, by the wild and uncontrolled immigration to Spain, when the policy of your country is trying to distort his own people for political outcomes and act as they please.

 

[spongetaro]

It is completely false that Iberia was ruled by muslims in 800 years. Only Granada lasted 781 years, there rest is much, much less than that. But anyways, the moors were always a minority, anywhere in the country, and their genetic legacy is minimal.

It could have been the same with the Celts in Iberia:
*Big and long lasting cultural/ architectural influence
*small genetic legacy