The Celts of Iberia

[spongetaro]

M167 is north and middle western? I thought it was mostly Catalan, and seemed like a good candidate to have come out of the Celts .

As you see, R1b M167 is not Celt, nor Indo European

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Where the hell did you see that on the Dodecad project ? It doesn't differentiate Celtic, Germanic or Roman admixtures !

I am not using the DODECAD project to refer to SUBSTRATUM. I only said that the DODECAD results show no significant Middle Eastern affinities in Spaniards.

Two different thoughts...

 

[Wilhelm]

Where the hell did you see that on the Dodecad project ? It doesn't differentiate Celtic, Germanic or Roman admixtures !

He was refering to BGA Eurogenes Project which has ant Atlantic component, and is the majority in Iberians (average 60% ) :

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-iberians.html

 

[Wilhelm]

As you see, R1b M167 is not Celt, nor Indo European

The branch of R1b in Europe is of indo-european ancestry. btw the R1b-M167 is also frequent in Wales, Cornwall and western France.

Basque and Aquitanian are R1b M153 and R1b M167 mainly=> spoke a non indo european language

Iberian (North and middle western spain) are mainly R1b M167 and spoke a non Indo european language

Now tell me which subclade of R1b is guenuinly Celtic in the Iberian Peninsula

The whole branch P312/S116 is considered proto-Celtic. Which is the overwhelming one in Iberia.

the Main celtic subclades are R1b U152 and the subclades of R1b in te Danube region

The U152 has a high frequency in western Poland and a low frequeny in Ireland, how do you explain that if it's celtic ?

I wonder what is the main subclade of R1b in Portugal

In Iberia is the S116, like in all Western Europe

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

As you see, R1b M167 is not Celt, nor Indo European

The map shows that the large majority of languages spoken in Iberia were Celtic, Proto-Celtic or Para- Celtic.

 

[sparkey]

As you see, R1b M167 is not Celt, nor Indo European

OK, you might be right that it has an Iberian-speaking affinity. I think you got your compass directions mixed up though... it definitely trends east in the Iberian peninsula, no? Whereas L21 pops up more in the west... I'm still not sure what the concentrations of the other subclades, though...

Edit: Actually, looks like Wilhelm has a pretty good response to this already.

 

[spongetaro]

The whole branch P312/S116 is considered proto-Celtic. Which is the overwhelming one in Iberia.

Really ? Basque, Aquitanian , Iberian (all non Indo European Languages) and Latin were proto-celtic.

Where did you get this information ?

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

OK, you might be right that it has an Iberian-speaking affinity. I think you got your compass directions mixed up though... it definitely trends east in the Iberian peninsula, no? Whereas L21 pops up more in the west... I'm still not sure what the concentrations of the other subclades, though...

Edit: Actually, looks like Wilhelm has a pretty good response to this already.

Clearly to the east.

 

[spongetaro]

The map shows that the large majority of languages spoken in Iberia were Celtic, Proto-Celtic or Para Celtic.

The two map show that highest frequencies of M167 are found in most non Indo European part of Iberia.
So if M167 is not Celt, Iberia was celtic speaking by being dominated by a tiny Celtic elite like I think it happened in western France

 

[Wilhelm]

Really ? Basque, Aquitanian , Iberian (all non Indo European Languages) and Latin were proto-celtic.

Where did you get this information ?

What has language to do with genetics ? By the same token one could say all romance people are genetically similar. You said U152 is celtic, but it's more frequent in western Poland than Ireland. Explain that.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The two map show that highest frequencies of M167 are found in most non Indo European part of Iberia.
So if M167 is not Celt, Iberia was celtic speaking by being dominated by a tiny Celtic elite like I think it happened in western France

That is not what the demographics suggest. Perhaps Wilhelm can post the research.

 

[Wilhelm]

They Myres et al 2010 study is very interesting :

R-S116 shows maximum Y-STR diversity in France and Germany but maximum frequency in Iberia and the British Isles. In the latter region it is represented mainly by R-M529 with the R-M222 subclade being particularly prominent in Ireland but also North England. It would be interesting to see data for Scotland, and I do not doubt that R-M222 would be prominent there as well. R-S116 also shows signs of being a Celtic, or Celtiberian-related lineage.

European Journal of Human Genetics doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.146

 

[Reinaert]

Well, I am P312. A Proto Celt. :cool-v:

I wonder If my ancestors lived in Western Europe already before the last ice age, and simply went south to Iberia to survive the cold climate.
When the ice age ended, they went north again. To France, and later on the British Isles and also Belgium and the south of The Netherlands.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Well, I am P312. A Proto Celt. :cool-v:
I wonder If my ancestors lived in Western Europe already before the last ice age, and simply went south to Iberia to survive the cold climate.
When the ice age ended, they went north again. To France, and later on the British Isles and also Belgium and the south of The Netherlands.

Cool. A great survivor. Can I call you "Mr. Proto"?

 

[spongetaro]

As you see R1b S116 doesn't encompass the craddle of celtic civilisation nor the whole P-celtic speaking area.
All the main subclades or R116 include Italo-Celtic speaking regions except R1b M167 which found its gighest frequency in the only 2
non indo european region of Western Europe.

 

[Wilhelm]

As you see R1b S116 doesn't encompass the craddle of celtic civilisation nor the whole P-celtic speaking area.
All the main subclades or R116 include Italo-Celtic speaking regions except R1b M167 which found its gighest frequency in the only 2
non indo european region of Western Europe.

The center of Europe (craddle of celtic civilization) has received many different influences due to it's central position (slavic and germanic influences mainly), represented by the germanic subcle U106, and the eastern R1a, while the most western countries (France, Iberia, Wales) have received less from other influences.

 

[Reinaert]

Cool. A great survivor. Can I call you "Mr. Proto"?

You can

I only learned about it a few months ago. :grin:

There is massive scientific evidence that the population of Europe is different from what propaganda from yesterday wants us to believe.

( I participated in the Brabant yDNA project)

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The Atlantic Celtic school has mounted a strong challenge to the traditional notion of Central Europe being the Celtic Cradle. The research continues at a brisk pace... BTW, I don't have a set opinion on the topic myself.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

You can
I only learned about it a few months ago. :grin:
There is massive scientific evidence that the population of Europe is different from what propaganda from yesterday wants us to believe.
( I participated in the Brabant yDNA project)

Cool.

 

[sparkey]

There is massive scientific evidence that the population of Europe is different from what propaganda from yesterday wants us to believe.

How so? I mean, obviously the Nazis distorted the history of the peopling of Europe, but the old model of multiple migrations into Europe, with the original "remnants" being a minority, has panned out. There is also evidence for the correlation of genetics with culture and language, at least to a degree that would have been more expected under the older models... What propaganda do you see?