The Celts of Iberia

[Canek]

Geert Wilders is an idiot. Idiots live everywhere.

of course he is an idiot... all fascist are idiots and you can find idiots everywhere but this idiot is very near to be the next dutch prime minister. that doesn't happen everywhere.

 

[Carlitos]

USA is just another fascist state like spain, and gw bush a fascist populist just like your dear geert wilders... americans are a bunch of hypocrites, suddently they don't want more latino immigrants to do all the dirty work they are too lazy and weak to do by themselves.

Perhaps you are not realizing, but end up being the same belief that what is critical.

 

[Canek]

Sorry, you know nothing about the truth, given the content of your ridiculous posts.

nobody has still argued against my posts... only childish attacks. you seem to have problems facing that you're descedants of moors. :useless:

 

[sparkey]

nobody has still argued against my posts... only childish attacks. you seem to have problems facing that you're descedants of moors. :useless:

This is a gigantic thread. Read through it and look for the charts, references, and haplogroup discussions. You will find that this is a very genetics-oriented community, and consensus is, Iberians are quite paleolithic matrilineally, quite Celtic patrilineally (or at least closely related to Celts in the case of Basques and other non-IE descendants), and group closely autosomally with others in similar situations (especially French and northern Italians). Moorish influence is present but definitely comparably minimal genetically; Iberians do not group closely with Moors or share haplogroups to a large degree in the same way that they do with French.

 

[Brady]

This is a gigantic thread. Read through it and look for the charts, references, and haplogroup discussions. You will find that this is a very genetics-oriented community, and consensus is, Iberians are quite paleolithic matrilineally, quite Celtic patrilineally (or at least closely related to Celts in the case of Basques and other non-IE descendants), and group closely autosomally with others in similar situations (especially French and northern Italians). Moorish influence is present but definitely comparably minimal genetically; Iberians do not group closely with Moors or share haplogroups to a large degree in the same way that they do with French.

It seems to me all those surveys just come to prove that several clusters tribe lived in a specific land. Well even many people think celts lived in Turkey. Then ¿do the turks have celtic heredity? Best regards.

 

[sparkey]

It seems to me all those surveys just come to prove that several clusters tribe lived in a specific land. Well even many people think celts lived in Turkey. Then ¿do the turks have celtic heredity? Best regards.

I have difficulty imagining that the Celtic culture and language originated in Anatolia, considering how close it is to Romance culture and language. More likely, it split after it migrated into Europe, although the specifics are big question marks. Anatolian-Western European R1b split is circa 6000 years ago and could well have happened in Anatolia. Celtic-Romance split is more like 3500 years ago, but like I said, harder to pinpoint. So... I think it's likely that the ancestors of Italo-Celtic peoples lived in Anatolia, but true Celts didn't appear until later in Western Europe. Maciamo's maps in the "Genetics" section of this website give some good speculation that I can't argue too much against, other than nitpicking.

 

[Wilhelm]

Reality can be very harsh for some people. The fact that genetics has demonstrated the minimal moorish influence, and the heavy Celtic and paleolithic-european ancestry has touched a lot of nerves. The Iberians are genetically typical europeans, and we cluster between french, north-italians, and Basques in all the autosomal map plots. Here is just one example :

This one includes north-africans, near-easterns, turks, georgians, etc :

 

[Wilhelm]

It seems to me all those surveys just come to prove that several clusters tribe lived in a specific land. Well even many people think celts lived in Turkey. Then ¿do the turks have celtic heredity? Best regards.

The western-european subclades of R1b are low in Turkey, and the celtic influence in Antolia was only in a small specific spot area, that with time has been absorbed in the majoritarin ethnic composition of turks.

 

[sparkey]

The western-european subclades of R1b are low in Turkey, and the celtic influence in Antolia was only in a small specific spot area, that with time has been absorbed in the majoritarin ethnic composition of turks.

Right... it should be pointed out that this was a Celtic colony called Galatia that existed in the 3rd-1st centuries BCE, and not something more ancient than that.

 

[Wilhelm]

More on the genetics of spaniards :

"Results: In this study we have sampled over 800 unrelated individuals from the population of Spain, and have genotyped them with a genome-wide coverage. We have carried out linkage disequilibrium, haplotype, population structure and copy-number variation (CNV) analyses, and have compared these estimates of the Spanish population with existing data from similar efforts.
Conclusions: In general, the Spanish population is similar to the Western and Northern Europeans, but has a more diverse haplotypic structure. Moreover, the Spanish population is also largely homogeneous within itself, although patterns of micro-structure may be able to predict locations of origin from distant regions.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2164-11-326.pdf

"An analysis of 11 Alu insertion polymorphisms...has been performed in several NW African...and Iberian...populations. Genetic distances and principal component analyses show a clear differentiation of NW African and Iberian groups of samples, suggesting a strong genetic barrier matching the geographical Mediterranean Sea barrier. The restriction to gene flow may be attributed to the navigational hazards across the Straits, but cultural factors must also have played a role. ... Iberian samples show a substantial degree of homogeneity and fall within the cluster of European-based genetic diversity."
(Comas et al. 2000)

"Haplogroup composition of the ancient Iberians was very similar to that found in modern Iberian Peninsula populations, suggesting a long-term genetic continuity since pre-Roman times.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaniards#cite_note-nytimes.com-24http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaniards#cite_note-29http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaniards#cite_note-30
^ a b Wade, Nicholas (August 13, 2008). "The Genetic Map of Europe". The New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html. Retrieved October 17, 2009.

A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another "European" cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree."

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118742265/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Previous Y-chromosome and mtDNA analysis[34] already pointed to Paleolithic ancestry among populations in the Iberian Peninsula. Although this methodology does not provide strong inferences on genetic population structure, it is useful in tracing parts of the routes of migration in the populating of Europe. Both Y-chromosome haplogroups R1b and Mtdna haplogroup H, reach frequencies above 60% in most of Iberia, R1b peaking at 90% in the Basque region.[35] This shows an ancestral bond between Iberia and the rest of western Europe, and in particular with Atlantic Europe, which share high frequencies of these haplogroups. Y-chromosome and mtDNA analysis seems to support the theory according to which founder populations in northern Iberia colonized the rest of western Europe at the end of the last glaciation.[36]

^ a b Flores, Carlos (2004). "Reduced genetic structure of the Iberian peninsula revealed by Y-chromosome analysis: implications for population demography". European Journal of Human Genetics 12 (10): 855. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201225. PMID 15280900.

A European wide study including Spaniards states: No significant correlation is apparent between North African admixture and geography. Genetic exchanges across the Mediterranean Sea, and especially in its western-most part where the geographic distance between continents is smallest (Spain), seem to have been limited or very limited, establishing the North African contribution at between 2.5% and 3.4%.[24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaniards#cite_note-Dupanloup2004-23
Dupanloup, I. (2004). "Estimating the Impact of Prehistoric Admixture on the Genome of Europeans". Molecular Biology and Evolution 21 (7): 1361. doi:10.1093/molbev/msh135. PMID 15044595.

 

[Brady]

I have difficulty imagining that the Celtic culture and language originated in Anatolia, considering how close it is to Romance culture and language. More likely, it split after it migrated into Europe, although the specifics are big question marks. Anatolian-Western European R1b split is circa 6000 years ago and could well have happened in Anatolia. Celtic-Romance split is more like 3500 years ago, but like I said, harder to pinpoint. So... I think it's likely that the ancestors of Italo-Celtic peoples lived in Anatolia, but true Celts didn't appear until later in Western Europe. Maciamo's maps in the "Genetics" section of this website give some good speculation that I can't argue too much against, other than nitpicking.

Well that's the way I see even you can't define what does mean celtic. It seems on V Century AC big clusters of celtic tribe start to emigrate to Italy Greek and Anatolia then if they were there we can say they have a celtic heredity. That's consistent with other presumed european celticity.

 

[sparkey]

Well that's the way I see even you can't define what does mean celtic. It seems on V Century AC big clusters of celtic tribe atart to emigrate to Italy Greek and Anatolia then if they were there we can say they have a celtic heredity. That's consistent with other european celticity.

Sorry, I think I had misunderstood your original question to be asking about the ancient origins of the Celts rather than whether or not they spread anywhere Eastern. Yeah, they did spread East, a little. Turks have a tiny amount of Celtic Y-DNA IIRC. But the great majority of Turkish R1b is Anatolian, not Celtic.

Defining Celtic may not be so hard, try this: the languages and culture associated with known P-Celtic and Q-Celtic language speakers, which are known to be closely related, and the ancestors that they share, not in common with non-Celts. That should exclude Romance language and culture and probably also Lusitanian (barely). But it keeps everything you think of as Celtic: Irish, Welsh, Gaulish, Celtiberian, La Tene, etc...

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

This is a gigantic thread. Read through it and look for the charts, references, and haplogroup discussions. You will find that this is a very genetics-oriented community, and consensus is, Iberians are quite paleolithic matrilineally, quite Celtic patrilineally (or at least closely related to Celts in the case of Basques and other non-IE descendants), and group closely autosomally with others in similar situations (especially French and northern Italians). Moorish influence is present but definitely comparably minimal genetically; Iberians do not group closely with Moors or share haplogroups to a large degree in the same way that they do with French.

Thank you Sparkey for educating some of our members.

 

[Triskel]

The mexican doesn't want arguments, he's just an anti-iberian with the typical ex-colony inferiority complex who loves to deny the Iberian celticity (LOL)

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The notion of Celticity has been well defined on this thread. I will shortly discuss its components and Iberian Celticity.

To deny that Spain and Portugal were very substantially influenced by Celtic peoples and culture is somewhat akin to claiming that the Earth is flat.

 

[Brady]

Sorry, I think I had misunderstood your original question to be asking about the ancient origins of the Celts rather than whether or not they spread anywhere Eastern. Yeah, they did spread East, a little. Turks have a tiny amount of Celtic Y-DNA IIRC. But the great majority of Turkish R1b is Anatolian, not Celtic.

Defining Celtic may not be so hard, try this: the languages and culture associated with known P-Celtic and Q-Celtic language speakers, which are known to be closely related, and the ancestors that they share, not in common with non-Celts. That should exclude Romance language and culture and probably also Lusitanian (barely). But it keeps everything you think of as Celtic: Irish, Welsh, Gaulish, Celtiberian, La Tene, etc...

Well I got it, turks are celtics too. Thanks.

 

[Wilhelm]

Well I got it, turks are celtics too. Thanks.

 

[Grizzly]

I am the first to hallucinate with these groups of Spanish and Portuguese music that mimic the sounds Irish

Yes, this is the right word (or maybe "borrow from", he he...). Galician seem to me very ridiculous when they try to mimic the Scottish or Breton folklore.

 

[Grizzly]

Iberia was defitively not Celtic in Antic times. Not more than the Russian peoples belonged to the mongol culture in late middle-age. Just military and aristocratic occupations, strong minorities or not. And all those rantings about genetics are just laughable.

Even I understand that it is hard to admit for some peoples.

 

[Wilhelm]

Yes, this is the right word (or maybe "borrow from", he he...). Galician seem to me very ridiculous when they try to mimic the Scottish or Breton folklore.

Actually the galician folk is different than the Irish or scottish folk. The muñeira ribeirana has been documented already in the XV century.
Regards,