The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army

Surprisingly the Y-DNA is more evenly distributed. I was expecting J2a to stomp other lines with around 50%. Again maybe sample size. R1b and G could've been increased by Native Italians.

EDIT: I think those samples are from the Southern Arch Paper. I don't think that chart includes the new samples from Sicily.
 
For those watching for ancient J2a-L25 based lineages, one (Z7706) was found in a grave with another T-S27463 sample (two in this study and one Greek in Southern Arc). This below-L25 is the first sample found in the ancient Greek world. The rest of the J2a ancient Greeks are probably below L26 but with no L25.
 
For those watching for ancient J2a-L25 based lineages, one (Z7706) was found in a grave with another T-S27463 sample (two in this study and one Greek in Southern Arc). This below-L25 is the first sample found in the ancient Greek world. The rest of the J2a ancient Greeks are probably below L26 but with no L25.

Angela also told me all four Classical Greeks in Spain were J. Probably J2a.
 
@Kuivamaa
"Himera was a colony founded by Ionian and Dorian Greeks around 648 BCE (25, 26) (Fig. 1). Himera was also likely inhabited by indigenous Sicilians, Punic people, and Etruscans (25, 27), as interactions between these groups have been well documented at Greek settlements, such as Selinunte (28)."
"
Beyond the intermarriage between locals and Himera’s Greek settlers, it is important to consider the possibility that the composition of the population might also have been influenced by a large-scale influx of Dorians from Agrigento after a political takeover by the Agrigentine tyrant, Theron, in 476 BCE, during which thousands of Himera’s inhabitants were killed (Diod. 11.49); however, the limited sample size available for analysis at this point and the lack of comparative data from Dorian contexts does not allow us to test this hypothesis. "
The area (especially Messina which founded Imera) originally was Ionian for sure. The change of name from Zancle (original name) to Messina does indicate Dorian presence later on (in fact around the time the battle took place) because Messini in Southern Greece was Doric (my father’s side is from the general area of Messinia). I am sure they will keep publishing more classical era samples as the months go by so we will get a good picture soon.
 
The area (especially Messina which founded Imera) originally was Ionian for sure. The change of name from Zancle (original name) to Messina does indicate Dorian presence later on (in fact around the time the battle took place) because Messini in Southern Greece was Doric (my father’s side is from the general area of Messinia). I am sure they will keep publishing more classical era samples as the months go by so we will get a good picture soon.

Zancle was destroyed by Romans, had all or most of it's male population genocided. And was renamed Messina following the conquest.
 
Zancle was destroyed by Romans, had all or most of it's male population genocided. And was renamed Messina following the conquest.

I don’t think Romans had anything to do with Magna Grecia in 480 BCE.
 
I don’t think Romans had anything to do with Magna Grecia in 480 BCE.

Excuse me. I misread that years ago. Zancle was renamed Messina by Anaxilas in 5th century BCE. The Roman colonization of Messina happened in 3th BCE. I misread years ago that it was the Romans who renamed the city after the conquest. Just rechecked it now.
 
The isotope ratios of the two y T1a2b is NOT consistent with Himera, they were soldiers or mercenaries, they battled 71 years apart from each other, maybe they’re related, … this haplogroup is not popular :)
 
PCA

ZxNH7gD.png

I see 8 Himera civilians in the PCA while there are 12 in the chart of the paper. Am I missing something or is there an error?
 
nzTWMjE.png


Worth noting, the supplement in better detail explains the Greeks are both Mycenaean and Minoan-like. I figured as much since Minoans, from what I've seen from other PCAs, tend to plot over modern Maltese.

Thou shall always read the supplement.
 
Quick info about the samples
LocalityContextPrimary genetic affinitySampleDateCoverageY haplogroup
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13383-80078,72%G-Y65* / G2a2b2a1a1c1a1a2
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13385-80078,46%G-Z3428* / G2a2b2a1a1c1a1a2
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13391-80076,25%G-Z1903* / G2a2b2a1a1c1a1(xG2a2b2a1a1c1a1a1)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13394-80075,57%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13376-80075,35%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13381-80074,88%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13392-80074,49%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13377-80074,27%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13386-80074,09%G-Z1903* / G2a2b2a1a1c1a1a2
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13378-80074,08%G-Z1903* / G2a2b2a1a1c1a1(xG2a2b2a1a1c1a1a1)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13380-80073,47%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13389-80072,72%G-Z3428* / G2a2b2a1a1c1a1a2
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13387-80071,01%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13390-80070,71%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13393-80067,87%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13395-80063,88%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13384-80057,09%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13379-80043,30%n/a (female)
Sicily, PolizzelloSicaniMediterraneanI13382-80036,20%G-Z3428* / G2a2b2a1a1c1a1a2
Sicily, Himera409 BCE battleMediterraneanI7224-65573,57%T-S27463* / T1a2b
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleNortheastern EuropeI10943-64059,11%R-Y35* / R1a1a1b1a2b
Sicily, Himera409 BCE battleMediterraneanI7225-62872,80%R-L2* / R1b1a1b1a1a2b1(xR1b1a1b1a1a2b1a,R1b1a1b1a1a2b1b)
Sicily, Himera409 BCE battleMediterraneanI7223-62872,77%J-FGC45722* / J2a1a1a2b2a(xJ2a1a1a2b2a1)
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleMediterraneanI7219-62871,87%G-PF3346* / G2a2b2a1a(xG2a2b2a1a1a1,G2a2b2a1a1a2a,G2a2b2a1a1a4 ,G2a2b2a1a1b,G2a2b2a1a1c)
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleMediterraneanI7218-59067,24%T-S27463* / T1a2b
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleBalkans and Central EuropeI10950-59062,34%E-CTS6377* / E1b1b1a1b1a(xE1b1b1a1b1a1)
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleMediterraneanI10945-59062,33%J-Y151557* / J2a1a1a2b(xJ2a1a1a2b2)
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleMediterraneanI7217-59061,08%L-L595* / L2
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleMediterraneanI10948-59055,25%R-Y13200* / R1b1a1(xR1b1a1b)
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleMediterraneanI10952-59054,48%J-Z7706* / J2a1a1b3
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleBalkans and Central EuropeI10946-59053,87%E-BY6357* / E1b1b1a1b1
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleCaucasusI10951-59053,42%R-FGC4547* / R1a1(xR1a1a1b1a2)
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleCaucasusI17872-5902,78%E-V13 / E1b1b1a1b1
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleBalkans/Western EuropeI17870-5901,85%F / F
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleEurasian SteppeI10944-58460,16%N* / N
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleNortheastern EuropeI10949-58249,19%I-L233* / I2a1a(xI2a1a2)
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleEurasian SteppeI10947-57661,94%R-Z2124* / R1a1a1(xR1a1a1b1a2a,R1a1a1b1a2b)
Sicily, Himera480 BCE battleMediterraneanI7221-57074,47%G-Z42565* / G2a2a1a2(xG2a2a1a2a)
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI17432-55066,63%G-PF3346* / G2a2b2a1a
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI20168-55012,86%G-L13 / G2a2b2a1a1a1a
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI20166-55011,90%L* / L
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI20163-5509,50%R-M269* / R1b1a1b
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI20160-5503,87%F / F
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI20162-5503,47%R-M269* / R1b1a1b
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI20161-5501,55%n/a (female)
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI20167-5500,99%n/a (female)
Sicily, Baucina, Monte FalconeSicaniMediterraneanI13125-5006,52%G-Z1903* / G2a2b2a1a1c1a1(xG2a2b2a1a1c1a1a1)
Sicily, Baucina, Monte FalconeSicaniMediterraneanI13128-5005,99%R-FT40455* / R1b1a1b1a1a2(xR1b1a1b1a1a2c,R1b1a1b1a1a2f)
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI17878-4502,15%G-Z7016 / G2a2b2b1a1a2
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI17887-4501,84%n/a (female)
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI17881-4501,71%n/a (female)
Sicily, HimeraCivilian populationMediterraneanI17879-4501,55%n/a (female)
Sicily, Himera409 BCE battleMediterraneanI17866-40964,93%J-Z35779 / J2a1a2b2a2b2~
Sicily, Himera409 BCE battleMediterraneanI17884-4094,56%L-L595 / L2

Thanks (y)
Interesting that I17872 e-v13 dude
Is in the caucasus cluster contrary to other 2 e-v13 in this research who belong to balkans central europe cluster
He must have came from the east

P.s
People here got a point
I jumped to soon maybe those 2 e-v13
Were thracian mercenaries in the greek army
Since they are not in the med cluster( which is mycenaean based if i am not wrong)
 
Last edited:
@Salento,

I think I speak for everyone when I say, we would really love to have these samples for vahaduo when they're available. You're the man with the magic to make it happen.

ENA Browser (ebi.ac.uk)
 
But Thracians are in the Greek cluster? I wonder what they mean with "Balkans"?

The Greeks are in the Mediterranean cluster. The E-V13ers are either in a Central European-North Balkan cluster or in the Caucasian. The Caucasian cluster being shared with an R-Z93 and its clearly Cimmerian derived/Thraco-Cimmerian. Just like the N haplogroup carrier with steppe ancestry. We already have R-Z93 from the South Eastern Thracian context as well and from the Pannonian too (IR1, Mezocsat Thraco-Cimmerian). So at least the Caucasian E-V13 likely being from the Thraco-Cimmerian sphere and I think its likely we're dealing with a group of mercenary cavalry or archers from the steppe/Carpathian basin of largely Thraco-Cimmerian background.
The 2 Central European/North Balkan E-V13ers might be from many places, I had a debate on Anthrogenica, let's say its disputed at the moment.

But this paper proves that E-V13 was not big in ancient Greeks. Might have been still there, in the North, in specific city states, but it wasn't big.

The Thraco-Cimmerian connection being confirmed and the 2 Central European/North Balkan samples need to be assigned properly, where they fit the best.
 
The Greeks are in the Mediterranean cluster. The E-V13ers are either in a Central European-North Balkan cluster or in the Caucasian. The Caucasian cluster being shared with an R-Z93 and its clearly Cimmerian derived/Thraco-Cimmerian. Just like the N haplogroup carrier with steppe ancestry. We already have R-Z93 from the South Eastern Thracian context as well and from the Pannonian too (IR1, Mezocsat Thraco-Cimmerian). So at least the Caucasian E-V13 likely being from the Thraco-Cimmerian sphere and I think its likely we're dealing with a group of mercenary cavalry or archers from the steppe/Carpathian basin of largely Thraco-Cimmerian background.
The 2 Central European/North Balkan E-V13ers might be from many places, I had a debate on Anthrogenica, let's say its disputed at the moment.

But this paper proves that E-V13 was not big in ancient Greeks. Might have been still there, in the North, in specific city states, but it wasn't big.

The Thraco-Cimmerian connection being confirmed and the 2 Central European/North Balkan samples need to be assigned properly, where they fit the best.

Riverman, the problem here is that we have no idea where these people come from, it's a mass-grave of fallen warriors/mercenaries. But the E-V13 Caucasus has a mtDNA U5a1a1 which shares with another R1a in the North-East European cluster. His Caucasus profile is completely off of course. Perhaps these people were hired via intermediates of Greek city-states in Black Sea.

As for the two E-V13-ers, they look like a mix of Balkan/Aegean/Sicilian Mediterranean and a Central-Western European pull. Let's see what that will turn out. I wouldn't exclude the Siculi from East Sicily, it's speculated they came from Balkans during LBA/EIA.
 

Obviously, this is just two dimensions, but you can see the Himera residents who are admixed plotting with the Sicani, and then the others plotting in-between the Sicani and other Himera residents, signaling, perhaps, admixture in them as well.

As for closeness to modern Southern Italians, one plots near Sicilians, one near Maltese who are mostly Sicilian, and one near Calabrians.

Absolutely nothing surprising for readers of this site.
 
Minoans tend to cluster away from any modern population.
Dodecad K12b PCA
Y1iKmQV.png
The daunian paper and the Lazaridis et al 2017 paper show different on their PCAs. Regardless, these people were minoan-like which is the point I was making. As stated in the supplement.
 
Riverman, the problem here is that we have no idea where these people come from, it's a mass-grave of fallen warriors/mercenaries. But the E-V13 Caucasus has a mtDNA U5a1a1 which shares with another R1a in the North-East European cluster. His Caucasus profile is completely off of course. Perhaps these people were hired via intermediates of Greek city-states in Black Sea.

As for the two E-V13-ers, they look like a mix of Balkan/Aegean/Sicilian Mediterranean and a Central-Western European pull. Let's see what that will turn out. I wouldn't exclude the Siculi from East Sicily, it's speculated they came from Balkans during LBA/EIA.

I agree.

Respectfully to other posters, there's too much jumping to conclusions going on, imo. There may be information buried in the Supplement which may be helpful, and samples from other Greek colonies and mainland Greece could clarify matters.

As to how to interpret the effect of the fallen warriors/mercenaries on the local gene pool, I think a distinction could reasonably be made between men who were most likely warriors drawn from among the locals, versus those who were foreign mercenaries from far off lands.

One could reasonably conclude that those who plot near the Himera civilians or in-between the Sicani and Himera civilians, were warriors drawn from the local population, and thus represent genomes which might continue to influence subsequent populations.

On the other hand, a few stray mercenaries from far away lands are extremely unlikely to have had a significant effect on the local gene pool, beyond, perhaps, contributing a yDna line which got lucky.
 
nzTWMjE.png


Worth noting, the supplement in better detail explains the Greeks are both Mycenaean and Minoan-like. I figured as much since Minoans, from what I've seen from other PCAs, tend to plot over modern Maltese.

Thou shall always read the supplement.

I'm going to comb it as soon as possible. :)

I just love how ancient dna can blow up the tainted, biased theories of the various amateur blow-hards in this field.

I think we can put to rest the idea that the ancient Greeks, Mycenaean and Minoan like, had no impact on Sicily and Southern Italy.

Likewise, I think we can put to rest the idea that somehow the Classical Greeks had become more "northern" than the Mycenaens and Minoans. It's a remarkable persistence of a genetic type for 1000 years.
 
Remarkable sweep of "G" in the Sicani. Shows up in Himera samples as well, so perhaps a sign of absorption into the polis.
 

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