The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

eupator said:
Probably not.

I am a bit disappointed with the quality of the arguments against Lazaridis' (2022) findings (in this case the lack of EHG in Anatolia).
Click to expand...

I see, to be honest i am a bit surprised on Hurro-Urartian R1b-Z2103. I expected Armenians and Hittites to show that. I don't know how Hurro-Urartians ended up with so much of EHG lineage. But maybe we are overlooking to much at Y-DNA = language connection in detail, exceptions can happen, or simply after Early Bronze Age language groups were more mixed and multi-cultural, certain lineages could become more common in certain linguistic groups even though they weren't the language progenitors. Who knows.
 
Hawk said:
I see, to be honest i am a bit surprised on Hurro-Urartian R1b-Z2103. I expected Armenians and Hittites to show that. I don't know how Hurro-Urartians ended up with so much of EHG lineage. But maybe we are overlooking to much at Y-DNA = language connection in detail, exceptions can happen, or simply after Early Bronze Age language groups were more mixed and multi-cultural, certain lineages could become more common in certain linguistic groups even though they weren't the language progenitors. Who knows.
Click to expand...


I think it's one of those linguistic matters that, together with the Etruscan R1b, tell us that the IE hypothesis is much more complexed than originally thought.
 
eupator said:
I think it's one of those linguistic matters that, together with the Etruscan R1b, tell us that the IE hypothesis is much more complexed than originally thought.
Click to expand...

This is true. We often overlook that the IE expansion in Europe and Western Asia is a process that took millennia.
 
eupator said:
Did you use the reich dataset?
If you did, would you mind testing a model with a modern sample using your own PCA?
I am interested in running Norwegian.DG with the following left breakdown:
Barcin
Yamnaya_Samara
GanjDareh
Kotias
WHG(Villabruna, Bichon)
Israel_PPN
And one with:
Barcin
EHG(Samara and Karelia HG)
GanjDareh
Kotias
WHG
Israel_PPN
Thank you.
Click to expand...

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Norwegian.DG:S_Norwegian-1.DG[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE100, align: right"]0.05588223[/TD]
[TD]Georgian.DG:S_Georgian-2.DG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCA00, align: right"]0.06046173[/TD]
[TD]Georgian.DG:S_Georgian-1.DG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E200FF, align: right"]0.15577206[/TD]
[TD]RUS_Yamnaya_Samara_EBA:I0231_published[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DC00FF, align: right"]0.15692885[/TD]
[TD]RUS_Yamnaya_Samara_EBA:I0443[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C700FF, align: right"]0.16091221[/TD]
[TD]IRN_GanjDareh_PostMdv:I1955[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C300FF, align: right"]0.16186137[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_ChL:I1584_v43.5_all[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A400FF, align: right"]0.16785775[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_Hofmanova_N:Bar8.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A300FF, align: right"]0.16808621[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I0745[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A200FF, align: right"]0.16832015[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I1585[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A100FF, align: right"]0.16844432[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I0746[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A100FF, align: right"]0.16850186[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I0708[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9F00FF, align: right"]0.16881186[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N_sister.of.I0736:I0854[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9D00FF, align: right"]0.16918084[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I1583[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9C00FF, align: right"]0.16947827[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I1098[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9B00FF, align: right"]0.16968482[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I0709[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9A00FF, align: right"]0.16982172[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I0707[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9900FF, align: right"]0.16993691[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I1580[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9900FF, align: right"]0.17006176[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I0736[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9600FF, align: right"]0.17056113[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I1579[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9300FF, align: right"]0.17126318[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I0744[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9200FF, align: right"]0.17129730[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I1096[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9200FF, align: right"]0.17132003[/TD]
[TD]PER_Kaillachuro_Unknown:KK1.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8E00FF, align: right"]0.17211386[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_Hofmanova_N:Bar31.SG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8C00FF, align: right"]0.17259231[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I1581[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8C00FF, align: right"]0.17259824[/TD]
[TD]TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N:I1097

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]




[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Norwegian.DG:S_Norwegian-1.DG
Distance: 4.8040% / 0.04804026

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]86.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Georgian.DG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]13.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ITA_Villabruna[/TD]






[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Norwegian.DG:S_Norwegian-1.DG
Distance: 4.8040% / 0.04804026

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]86.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Georgian.DG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]13.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ITA_Villabruna[/TD]
 

Attachments

  • Norwegian.jpg
    Norwegian.jpg
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eupator said:
Did you use the reich dataset?
Click to expand...

Yes, the latest one for Anatolia.

eupator said:
If you did, would you mind testing a model with a modern sample using your own PCA?
I am interested in running Norwegian.DG with the following left breakdown:
Barcin
Yamnaya_Samara
GanjDareh
Kotias
WHG(Villabruna, Bichon)
Israel_PPN
And one with:
Barcin
EHG(Samara and Karelia HG)
GanjDareh
Kotias
WHG
Israel_PPN
Thank you.
Click to expand...

Here are the source and target data I used:
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Kuivamaa said:
This is true. We often overlook that the IE expansion in Europe and Western Asia is a process that took millennia.
Click to expand...

I think it very much depended on the area. To the best of my recollection the movement into Central Europe and admixture on the way with the Neolithic communities right outside the steppe too place relatively quickly. Same would go for the sparsely populated Northeast and Britain.

Then, if I remember the dates correctly there was almost a pause before the migration into the south and southeast, and I've often wondered if that had something to do with the plague effect as well as the necessity to consolidate and the fact that it was much easier to roll over flat territory where many of the Neolithic farmers had already died than to find one's way over mountains like the Alps and the Pyrenees. I can't remember who said it, but the point has been made that Ukraine, Poland, all the way into central Europe is perfect for tanks, so long as you don't try it during winter when you'll freeze or starve to death, or spring when you'll get mired in the mud.

Then there's the issue as to whether it also involved the fact that some people left the steppe later and quickly arrived in new areas. The paper is positing that Greek and Albanian speakers came directly from Yamnaya, yes?

The Middle East was much less affected. Beyond Armenia, it sort of petered out, yes, except for any influence by the Mitanni?
 
eupator said:
I think it's one of those linguistic matters that, together with the Etruscan R1b, tell us that the IE hypothesis is much more complexed than originally thought.
Click to expand...

I thought about that as well, but from what i have heard (AFAIK Pax Augusta mentioned) Etruscan is usually considered as an Early European Farmer language extremely likely. So, G2a was present as well among them and i guess the original Proto-Tyrrhenian progenitors were of this lineage, considering also the Rhaetic connections from the Alps (where G2a seems to have survived in some decent numbers).
 
Oh, she's of Turkish origin, I thought she may have been German from the name.

She's a co-author for "Proceed with Caution" for Global aDNA research guidelines along with this guy:


name
Songül Alpaslan-Roodenberg
description
Harvard Medical School, Boston, US
Region: Turkey and the Balkans


I’m Songül Alpaslan-Roodenberg. I am a paleo- and physical anthropologist of Turkish origin and live in the Netherlands. Turkey and the Balkans constitute my study area. I have examined many human skeletons from graves in archaeological excavations, especially in Turkey and Bulgaria.


Less than 10 years ago ancient DNA analysis was not well known by archaeologists and museum staff. But those who came into contact with this subject responded positively. In those days the protocol of sample taking was simple: the approval of an archaeologist, anthropologist, and the concerned museum authorities was sufficient. But since the growing importance of DNA analysis attracted more and more people, the number of rules increased.


As for Turkey, it is allowed to analyze ancient human remains in any domestic laboratory after following the procedures established by government institutions. However, if you want to have it done in a laboratory abroad, this procedure will take more time.


In the last few years, I took human bone samples covering different periods and regions and we were successful in obtaining permissions by strictly following these rules. As a result, all the sampled material could be analyzed abroad/in the Reich Lab and we expect the results to be published soon.


I think the general rules we propose in our article about ethics are also applicable to our region. In fact, they have already been applied.


Actually, if I consider my own sampling region, the most important thing about permits is not the attitude of the official authorities, but the undesirable competition between laboratories. Instead of competing on this issue, I believe that collaborating in scientific projects will be more productive for everyone. I hope future sample projects will give us opportunities for better cooperation.

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/proceeding-caution
Click to expand...
 
enter_tain said:
I think you need some geography lessons pal. The southern parts of Macedonia were clearly ancient Macedonian, and Paeonians don't seem any different genetically.
Click to expand...

Ohrid was Illyrian town , Skopje was most likely Illyrian. Where many of these samples found in Northern Macedonia are clearly not Ancient Macedonians but Illyrians. What are you even talking about ?

Ohrid was inhabited by Illyrians:

Lychnidus (Λυχνιδός, Λυχνίς, Lychnidós, Lychnís), Capital city of the Illyrian Dassaretae (→ Dassaretia) on the → via Egnatia (Str. 7,7,4; It. Ant. 318), modern Ohrid in Macedonia on Lake Ohrid.
Click to expand...

Paeonians were most likely Illyrians or Thracians.


In what planet are some of these samples found in Northern Macedonia supposed to be Ancient Macedonians ?


It's also interesting how Northern Macedonia has never been considered as a possible Albanian homeland ? Especially Skopje, Dibra area etc and South-Western parts of Kosovo around the Pashtrik mountains.

Your obsessions are mostly with samples from Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and Kosovo.
 
Unless you're saying Ancient Macedonians were related to Illyrians ?
 
Anfänger said:
Thanks for sharing. These are all? Why aren´t the other samples uploaded?
Click to expand...

i assume yfull only upload samples of good quality
and not all the samples from this southern arc paper reach that standard
 
enter_tain said:
I think you need some geography lessons pal. The southern parts of Macedonia were clearly ancient Macedonian, and Paeonians don't seem any different genetically.
Click to expand...

As some argued correctly. Current geographical North Macedonia was not inhabited by Ancient Macedonians. But what people missed out on, is that during the Iron Age (dating of NorthMac samples) there was no Macedonia in Northern Greece either. The Macedonians settled there only later, or were beginning to establish themselves in a small region in current Greek Macedonia (Emathia). So in the case of Ancient Macedonians we really need classical or Hellenistic samples to understand their genetic make up.

Second, as for the genetic make up of the Illyrians. The essence is that most ancient Illyrians do not overlap with modern Greeks/Albanians, but with North Italians. They are not even near Mycenaeans (unlike many Thracians). There is no point in correlating ancient Illyrians overall and ancient Macedonians. In fact, there are some samples in the Ancient region of Albania which, unlike most Illyrian samples, are pulled towards Mycenaeans. And perhaps (and this is only speculation) Ancient Macedonians cluster close to that group. But overall, all these groups fall within the Ancient Greek genetic sphere.
 
Dianatomia said:
As some argued correctly. Current geographical North Macedonia was not inhabited by Ancient Macedonians. But what people missed out on, is that during the Iron Age (dating of NorthMac samples) there was no Macedonia in Northern Greece either. The Macedonians settled there only later, or were beginning to establish themselves in a small region in current Greek Macedonia (Emathia). So in the case of Ancient Macedonians we really need classical or Hellenistic samples to understand their genetic make up.

Second, as for the genetic make up of the Illyrians. The essence is that most ancient Illyrians do not overlap with modern Greeks/Albanians, but with North Italians. They are not even near Mycenaeans (unlike many Thracians). There is no point in correlating ancient Illyrians overall and ancient Macedonians. In fact, there are some samples in the Ancient region of Albania which, unlike most Illyrian samples, are pulled towards Mycenaeans. And perhaps (and this is only speculation) Ancient Macedonians cluster close to that group. But overall, all these groups fall within the Ancient Greek genetic sphere.
Click to expand...

Not really.

NUR2ZeZ.png


V0M0k5U.png

Tried to label the clusters in the following image, there is a clear trend.
XZNE5sT.png


Ps: Orange diamonds are modern Albanian samples, yellow triangles are modern Greek samples. There is clear clustering between modern Albanians and what looks to be Cetina derived Balkans(HRV, MNE, MKD, ALB).
d9GitIk.png
 
Dianatomia said:
As some argued correctly. Current geographical North Macedonia was not inhabited by Ancient Macedonians. But what people missed out on, is that during the Iron Age (dating of NorthMac samples) there was no Macedonia in Northern Greece either. The Macedonians settled there only later, or were beginning to establish themselves in a small region in current Greek Macedonia (Emathia). So in the case of Ancient Macedonians we really need classical or Hellenistic samples to understand their genetic make up.

Second, as for the genetic make up of the Illyrians. The essence is that most ancient Illyrians do not overlap with modern Greeks/Albanians, but with North Italians. They are not even near Mycenaeans (unlike many Thracians). There is no point in correlating ancient Illyrians overall and ancient Macedonians. In fact, there are some samples in the Ancient region of Albania which, unlike most Illyrian samples, are pulled towards Mycenaeans. And perhaps (and this is only speculation) Ancient Macedonians cluster close to that group. But overall, all these groups fall within the Ancient Greek genetic sphere.
Click to expand...

Using Northern Macedonian sample the Slavic admixture is lowered to 25% in Peloponnese and 33% in Greek Macedonia.


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.2767% / 0.01276704

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]26.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]24.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GRC_Mycenaean[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]23.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]BGR_IA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]21.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Armenian_Gesaria[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]MKD_Anc[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 1.1134% / 0.01113445

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]33.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]25.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GRC_Mycenaean[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]16.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Armenian_Gesaria[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]MKD_Anc[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]9.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]BGR_IA[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.2767% / 0.01276704

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]26.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]24.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GRC_Mycenaean[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]23.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]BGR_IA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]21.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Armenian_Gesaria[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]MKD_Anc[/TD]
 
1337_ said:
Ohrid was Illyrian town , Skopje was most likely Illyrian. Where many of these samples found in Northern Macedonia are clearly not Ancient Macedonians but Illyrians. What are you even talking about ?

Ohrid was inhabited by Illyrians:



Paeonians were most likely Illyrians or Thracians.


In what planet are some of these samples found in Northern Macedonia supposed to be Ancient Macedonians ?


It's also interesting how Northern Macedonia has never been considered as a possible Albanian homeland ? Especially Skopje, Dibra area etc and South-Western parts of Kosovo around the Pashtrik mountains.

Your obsessions are mostly with samples from Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and Kosovo.
Click to expand...

Paeonians lived between the Dardanians and the Macedonians ..............throughout their history they where either allied or where a vassal of the Macedonians......they even went with Alexander the Great on his Persian conquests ....
 
Archetype0ne said:
Not really.

NUR2ZeZ.png


V0M0k5U.png

Tried to label the clusters in the following image, there is a clear trend.
XZNE5sT.png


Ps: Orange diamonds are modern Albanian samples, yellow triangles are modern Greek samples. There is clear clustering between modern Albanians and what looks to be Cetina derived Balkans(HRV, MNE, MKD, ALB).
d9GitIk.png
Click to expand...

Why do you refer to an IA Thraco-Illyrian sample as Ancient Macedonian? Let's keep it historically accurate.

I am delighted that we have IA samples from that region. So it plots close to the Thessalian Log 02 and Log 04 samples. I long speculated that during the Iron Age another wave of people were absorbed into the Hellenic mainframe. And these people may have lived in the North parts of Greece or beyond that. My guess is that Ancient Macedonians would plot somewhere in between the Thraco-Illyrians (NMK) and the Mycenaeans. But frankly, I think most Classical Greeks will plot there.
 
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