The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

[D.L.M]

The original Macedonia was a small piece, a large chunk of what is now Greek Macedonia was Thracian land.
We already have a sample from Thessaloniki.

 

[Kuivamaa]

This is your personal interpretation. The historical fact is another and Demosthenes said it clearly:
"...οὐ μόνον οὐχ Ἕλληνος ὄντος οὐδὲ προσήκοντος οὐδὲν τοῖς Ἕλλησιν, ἀλλ᾽ οὐδὲ βαρβάρου ἐντεῦθεν ὅθεν καλὸν εἰπεῖν, ἀλλ᾽ ὀλέθρου Μακεδόνος, ὅθεν οὐδ᾽ ἀνδράποδον σπουδαῖον οὐδὲν ἦν πρότερον πρίασθαι."
"...he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."
Demosthenes-Third Philippic 31

Not my interpretation. Demosthenes was a mortal enemy of Macedon.

“Demosthenes grew interested in politics during his time as a logographer, and in 354 BC he gave his first public political speeches. He went on to devote his most productive years to opposing Macedon's expansion. He idealized his city and strove throughout his life to restore Athens' supremacy and motivate his compatriots against Philip II of Macedon. He sought to preserve his city's freedom and to establish an alliance against Macedon, in an unsuccessful attempt to impede Philip's plans to expand his influence southward by conquering all the other Greek states.

After Philip's death, Demosthenes played a leading part in his city's uprising against the new king of Macedonia, Alexander the Great. However, his efforts failed and the revolt was met with a harsh Macedonian reaction. To prevent a similar revolt against his own rule, Alexander's successor in this region, Antipater, sent his men to track Demosthenes down. Demosthenes took his own life, to avoid being arrested by Archias of Thurii, Antipater's confidant.“

Again, Macedon genetic affinity to Illyria and Epirus is not only unsurprising but also expected. It would be surprising if they showed affinity to cretans or Greek islanders, or what have you , that should be evident to everyone. Claiming that this affinity to illyrians bothers modern Greeks at all is ludicrous and a strawman. If you think the official greek state cares at all what Iron Age or whatnot Macedon dna looks like you need to get out of the ancient population genetics bubble and step into the real world.
As I said we have evidence that Macedon citizens in classic times spoke Greek (eg the known Πέλλας καταδεσμός ) and even participated in the Olympics. Macedon itself actively and intensively cultivated its links with the rest of classical Greece, that alone tells you all you need to know.

 

[D.L.M]

There are two main sets. One from northern....North Macedonia (mouthful), and one from southern/east of Ohrid.

The east of Ohrid area is clearly ancient Macedonian territory and are pretty much identical to southern Illyrians.

Ruins of the ancient site of Lychnidos
The earliest inhabitants of the widest Lake Ohrid region were the Illyrian tribes of Enchele[16] and Dassaretii.[17][18]

Northern Macedonia in antiquity was a mixture of Thracians and Illyrians so they plot in-between them.

 

[D.L.M]

I've always been saying EV-13 was mostly founder effects. It existed in pockets here and there, but it played no major role in any large civilizations.

No it means we are only 35-40% Illyrian if the maternal side was stronger.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I would warn against using modern nation state concepts in analyzing ancient identities.
As for Macedonians and Illyrians somewhat overlapping, I'm in the same camp as others, it does not surprise me.
Just wanted to point out that while Macedonians were indeed Hellenized and were one of the major reasons for the spread of Hellenism beyond its initial influence, proto Macedonians were not Hellenic. I have read countless debates whether the popular Macedonian language/dialect was mutually intelligible with ancient Greek, because while Alexander obviously was fluent in Greek, his soldiers had issues.

 

[Southpaw]

1 E-V13 in an Ancient Macedonian site. Every single Thracian or Thracian-related sites are bearing E-V13, that's a no-brainer. Riverman's systematic approach and theory needs recognition.

As for entertain, his E-V13 bias and hatred screams from his screen lmao. It's out of control.

Ruins of the ancient site of Lychnidos

The earliest inhabitants of the widest Lake Ohrid region were the Illyrian tribes of Enchele[16] and Dassaretii.[17][18]

Northern Macedonia in antiquity was a mixture of Thracians and Illyrians so they plot in-between them.

The Enchelei cremated their deaths on a pyre on a low-mound/tumuli like the Channeled-Ware, i doubt those samples are Enchelei. They must be some Matt-Painted Pottery descendands.

 

[Kuivamaa]

I have read countless debates whether the popular Macedonian language/dialect was mutually intelligible with ancient Greek, because while Alexander obviously was fluent in Greek, his soldiers had issues.

There was no one “Greek” language during Alexander’s reign. Koine hadn’t developed yet, we were still in the era of Attic/Ionian, Doric, Aeolian etc. Pittacus was an aeolian speaker and according to Plato, gave Prodicus (Attic speaker) a hard time with his dialect to the point of calling Pittacus a barbarian. I don’t hear anyone doubting that Aeolians were Greek speakers. The same happens today. I am a native Greek speaker, exposed to northern modern Greek dialects (both my maternal grandparents spoke one) and yet I do not fully understand Kozanitika (a divergent nothern idiom). I need them to speak slowly and I will still have unknown vocabulary. That doesn’t mean they aren’t speaking Greek.

 

[matadworf]

There are two main sets. One from northern....North Macedonia (mouthful), and one from southern/east of Ohrid.

The east of Ohrid area is clearly ancient Macedonian territory and are pretty much identical to southern Illyrians.

These are Iron Age samples are you sure the Lake Ohrid region was in Macedonian territory during the IA. During the classical era that was actually Thracian territory (based on maps I've looked at) bordering on Illyrian territory. Macedonian territory was further South. Again don't know about Iron Age Macedonia.

 

[Leopoldo Leone]

These are Iron Age samples are you sure the Lake Ohrid region was in Macedonian territory during the IA. During the classical era that was actually Thracian territory (based on maps I've looked at) bordering on Illyrian territory. Macedonian territory was further South. Again don't know about Iron Age Macedonia.

One of the biggest issues I have with these papers is that they've presented their data in a manner that makes it impossible to draw any inference.
I could multiply the examples, but pace to some posters here the samples I've seen so far from Albania are from the very north, so they have no relevance to Epirote Greeks, and likewise the "Macedonian" samples are likewise from far too north to be relevant for the ethnic Greek Macedonians that lived much farther south.

 

[Er Monnezza]

The "Macedonian" samples are likewise from far too north to be relevant for the ethnic Greek Macedonians that lived much farther south.

These samples were found about 133 km from Aigai, the original capital of the Macedonians.

 

[D.L.M]

One of the biggest issues I have with these papers is that they've presented their data in a manner that makes it impossible to draw any inference.
I could multiply the examples, but pace to some posters here the samples I've seen so far from Albania are from the very north, so they have no relevance to Epirote Greeks, and likewise the "Macedonian" samples are likewise from far too north to be relevant for the ethnic Greek Macedonians that lived much farther south.

Even the Thracians that lived there were probably more like BGR_IA than Tuscans. Greek Macedonians form a cline with Peloponnesians and the rest of Mainlanders.
The Slavic YDNA is higher there than in most other parts of Greece and also the historical account tells us that Macedonia was more Slavized than Peloponnese.

Ancient Macedonians and probably the Thracians were similar to Ancient Peloponnesians.

 

[APO276]

What is now North Macedonia was not inhabited by Greeks.

The Pelagonians though near what is now Bitola appear Greek, Greek-related or Greek-like and samples inside or near (?) that region were J-Y13128.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y13128/

I don't know what is the profile of these samples though.

Ancient Macedonians proper were from further south but nearby.

The Phrygians were J2a-rich too.

Then, the Greco-Phrygian speakers probably had a variety of J2a clades along with whatever else.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

This was bound to happen.

 

[1337_]

Very interesting results, especially that those samples range from Italian to Albanian like, one even clusters like a Caucasian.

So I was right we got the same ADNA as Northern Illyrians only with more East/South Shift. Maybe CHG+Neolithic? ( I am no expert on this)

 

[Angela]

This was bound to happen.

This is not theapricity. Enough with the childish pictures and youtube videos.

 

[Angela]

One of the biggest issues I have with these papers is that they've presented their data in a manner that makes it impossible to draw any inference.
I could multiply the examples, but pace to some posters here the samples I've seen so far from Albania are from the very north, so they have no relevance to Epirote Greeks, and likewise the "Macedonian" samples are likewise from far too north to be relevant for the ethnic Greek Macedonians that lived much farther south.

I agree as to those two ethnicities.

 

[Anfänger]

The BAM-files were published :
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB54831?show=reads

 

[Milan.M]

Hmm.. Interesting
I-L621, Bulgaria EBA, 3000-2000 BCE, Kazanlak, Tell Kran (Central, Yasenovo).

I-CTS4002, Romania BA, 2150-1850 BCE, Cârlomănești Arman. 1873-1630 calBCE (3430±25 BP, PSUAMS-3982), Locality: Trestiana, Romania,
Y-DNA: R-Y2613

 

[Ralphie Boy]

The original Macedonia was a small piece, a large chunk of what is now Greek Macedonia was Thracian land.
We already have a sample from Thessaloniki.

That sample is Hellenistic era and Mycenaean/Empuries-like, from the Biomuse project PCA. Most of those are similar, post-Mycenean ancient Greeks plotting with or near Mycenaeans. But because the samples are so few, we don’t know where variations exist, or a fuller haplogroup picture. What happened between North Macedonia and Thessaloniki area, a big change in ancestry, or blending?

 

[Lukas]

Most surprising thing for me in G25, ancient Armenians were practically Georgian/Dagestani in modern autosomal terms. It seems current Armenian genetic profile is influenced by Semitic admix from the south, hence their similarity to Assyrians!

Distance to: ARM_Tekhut_LBA:I16554
0.02932237 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Tavshut_Trialeti_MBA:I14813
0.03379945 Chechen

Distance to: ARM_Sarukhan_unknown:I20444
0.03094688 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Sarukhan_unknown:I20436
0.04410356 Azeri_Dagestan

Distance to: ARM_Sarukhan_EIA:I20443
0.04323425 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Sarukhan_EIA:I20441
0.04001783 Azeri_Dagestan

Distance to: ARM_Pijut_UrartianPeriod_son.I17181:I16219
0.04063507 Georgian_Kakhetian

Distance to: ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I17180
0.02512296 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I16194
0.03775583 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I16193
0.02858927 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I16191
0.02869918 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19329
0.03723556 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19326
0.03457680 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19325
0.02866591 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19323
0.03621192 Tabasaran

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_LBA:I18486
0.02997043 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_EIA:I19321
0.03179903 Tabasaran

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18481
0.03537578 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18470
0.03418648 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18469
0.03928058 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18468
0.03837145 Azeri_Dagestan

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_Anc:I19327
0.02719499 Armenian_Yerevan

Distance to: ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA_son.I18166:I15731
0.04154020 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA:I15733
0.02816677 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA:I15732
0.03115507 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Masis_Blur_N:I3930
0.04988829 Armenian

Distance to: ARM_Lori_Berd_LBA:I16196
0.04164622 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Lori_Berd_LBA:I13948
0.03067265 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Lori_Berd_LateUrartian_A:I13947
0.04221220 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18277
0.03366305 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18276
0.03982279 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18168
0.02733178 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Keti_Urartian:I17184
0.02586090 Georgian_Imeretian

Distance to: ARM_Keti_LBA:I17183
0.04204312 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Keti_EIA:I18478
0.04309739 Tabasaran

Distance to: ARM_Karnut_EIA:I16707
0.03278237 Tabasaran

Distance to: ARM_Karmir_Blur_Urartian_outlier:I13035
0.05038542 Georgian_Jew

Distance to: ARM_Karmir_Blur_EIA:I13031
0.05254543 Udi

Distance to: ARM_Karmir_Blur_EIA:I3938
0.04030108 Georgian_Kartlian

Distance to: ARM_Karmir_Blur_Anc:I16119
0.02033164 Turkish_East_Erzurum

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19354
0.02842504 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19348
0.03728675 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19346
0.02618087 Georgian_Kakhetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19345
0.02998842 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19341
0.03752503 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19336
0.02695046 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19335
0.04009949 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19334
0.03324779 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19333
0.02934099 Udi

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19332
0.03702330 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19331
0.03862803 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I16220
0.03625351 Udi

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_EIA:I19353
0.03289810 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_EIA:I19349
0.03316500 Azeri_Dagestan

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_EIA:I19343
0.02903097 Zoroastrian_Iran

Distance to: ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18238
0.03541867 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18237
0.03414788 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18161
0.03869954 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Dzori_Gekh_LBA:I16120
0.02986049 Turkish_East_Erzurum

Distance to: ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14057
0.03102258 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14055
0.03283235 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14054
0.03345583 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14053
0.02234750 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Bragdzor_EIA_father.I16536.brother.I16553:I165 46
0.04018039 Georgian_Imeretian

Distance to: ARM_Bragdzor_EIA:I16536
0.03064459 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bover_Urartian:I16376
0.03129887 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bover_Urartian:I16117
0.03793360 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18165
0.02582474 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18163
0.03958437 Azeri_Dagestan

Distance to: ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18162
0.02983101 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA_father.or.son.I14343:I 14340
0.03356613 Georgian_Kakhetian

Distance to: ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14343
0.03207987 Georgian_Kakhetian

Distance to: ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14341
0.03311907 Georgian_Kakhetian

Distance to: ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14339
0.03155139 Georgian_Kartlian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA_son.I14603.son.I14619:I1461 7
0.03295743 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA_brother.I14619:I14065
0.03379230 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14620
0.03617282 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14619
0.02622309 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14618
0.02941605 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14606
0.03149678 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14601
0.03955380 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14588
0.02715710 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Aknashen_N:I3931
0.04513741 Georgian_Meskhian

Distance to: ARM_Aghitu_Anc_father.or.son.of.I1636:I1637
0.03036289 Udi

Distance to: ARM_Aghitu_Anc:I1636
0.02218149 Armenian_Syunik