The genetic origin of Daunians

[Pax Augusta]

I read somewhere that L2a1c3a is pretty common among North Africans. Furthermore, the abstract from this study did mention individuals with North African, Central European and Near Eastern ancestry. However, I don’t know whether they’re referring to mixed Etruscans or foreigners who resided in Etruria.

Source? How many north Africans do you see here?

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2a1c3a/

Maybe you confuse with L2a1c1.

an old member of Eupedia

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...A-haplogroup-L?p=427426&viewfull=1#post427426

surname Corso and paternal Grandfather from Belluno....grandmother from Piemonte

My paternal grandmother is from Mondovì in Piemonte, and my paternal grandfather is from Belluno in Veneto.

Is this the imperia one ?

No, her maternal ancestors are indeed all from Western Liguria (likely Savona area) but she has a different mtDNA, L3f1b, while the two from Imperia are L2b1a. In Europe on Yfull there are only Spanish there.

https://yfull.com/mtree/L3f1b/


I read the old discussion. The problem with the studies of the past on modern Italian samples is that they were managed by a series of Italian geneticists intellectually dishonest and quite incompetent who went to dig for both mtDNA and Y-DNA rare in Italians to attribute them to the Etruscans. Today we know, as archaeologists and anthropologists had already concluded many years ago, that the opposite is true.

The main problem with all these haplogroups (L3f1b which is the one of the old Eupedia user, or the two mtDNAs L2a1c3a and L2b1a found in the samples of which however we know nothing else, not even the exact age or the archeological contextt) is that they all have formation times and TMRCA of 10-15 thousand years.

There is even mtDNA L2a1k detected in Czechs and Slovaks, but it seems that it's not the only mtDNA L2 found there.

Reconstructing the phylogeny of African mitochondrial DNA lineages in Slavs

"To elucidate the origin of African-specific mtDNA lineages, revealed previously in Slavonic populations (at frequency of about 0.4%), we completely sequenced eight African genomes belonging to haplogroups L1b, L2a, L3b, L3d and M1 gathered from Russians, Czechs, Slovaks and Poles. Results of phylogeographic analysis suggest that at least part of the African mtDNA lineages found in Slavs (such as L1b, L3b1, L3d) appears to be of West African origin, testifying to an opportunity of their occurrence as a result of migrations to Eastern Europe through Iberia. However, a prehistoric introgression of African mtDNA lineages into Eastern Europe (approximately 10 000 years ago) seems to be probable only for European-specific subclade L2a1a, defined by coding region mutations at positions 6722 and 12903 and detected in Czechs and Slovaks. Further studies of the nature of African admixture in gene pools of Europeans require the essential enlargement of databases of African complete mitochondrial genomes."

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg200870

 

[torzio]

might interest Salento

https://www.academia.edu/16985920/Messapian_Steles_Native_Funerary_Stones_in_Cross-cultural_Contexts

[h=4]Messapian Steles: Native Funerary Stones in Cross-cultural Contexts[/h]

 

[kingdavid]

It might be that the L2a1c3a and L2b1a found in etruscan future paper
are native european branches who originated in europe situ
Like L2a1k who detacted in slavs
Will see the sites of remains and the timeline like pax augusta say .....

P.s
Although in the abstract like real expert mention
While there is continue in the etruscan autosomal profile some individuals where central european, north african , near eastern autosomally speaking

 

[Pax Augusta]

It might be that the L2a1c3a and L2b1a found in etruscan future paper
are native european branches who originated in europe situ
Like L2a1k who detacted in slavs
Will see the sites of remains and the timeline like pax augusta say .....

L2b1a seems more likely to be of African descent than the other. But let's wait for the information that is still missing and the archaeological context. Often the archaeological context is not enough though, especially if we are dealing with remains found at the end of the 1800s and beginning of the 1900s. Because some graves were also reused in the following centuries. See the case of ETR001, a find from the 1800s with no archaeological context, which was hastily labeled as an Etruscan woman, then the recent analysis found that it was actually a Roman woman of late imperial age.

Although in the abstract like real expert mention
While there is continue in the etruscan autosomal profile some individuals where central european, north african , near eastern autosomally speaking

Indeed, you're right but here again it is a bit problematic. Are these Etruscans with foreign origin or are they simply foreigners? Archaeology speaks of some cases of Celts, Italics, Latins being naturalized, but it happens, I think, not very early. For the most ancient times it is assumed that there was some marriage with the Nuragic Sardinians. But even here, it is unlikely to have involved the entire population. As well as some Punic presence. In the north of Italy are assumed marriages between Etruscans and Rhaetian people. Certainly in Bologna there were also Veneti, as well as certainly Ligurians in northern Etruria. From orientalizing onwards certainly many presences of Greeks, even Ionian Greeks, and merchants and craftsmen possibly Levantine. But, generally speaking, we don't know much about how the Etruscans viewed the foreigners and those with foreign ancestry (and this is true for other ancient ethnicities as well).

There is the well-known story of the Etruscan Lucius Tarquinius Priscus who became King of Rome, the story was told by Emperor Claudius, considered an expert on Etruscan civilization and who had written in Greek the Tyrrhenica, a twenty-book Etruscan history, and a text on the Etruscan language. Lucius Tarquinius Priscus, born to a Greek father from Corinth and to an Etruscan mother from Tarquinia, was forced to migrate from Tarquinia to Rome because in Tarquinia the foreign origin of his father did not grant him access to public office. This story tells us that the Etruscans did not look kindly on those with foreign origins, but we don't know much more than that. We don't know if it was really so, and if it was so always during 1000 years. Because we must never forget that the Etruscan civilization lasted 10 centuries, 1000 years or so, the Etruscans were quite numerous and were spread over a very wide territory, which went from northern Italy to extensions in Campania, in Magna Graecia. If the Etruscans had a not very open attitude towards foreigners, most likely what happened in Rome, which was from the beginning the fusion of several different pre-Roman ethnic groups, will end up influencing gradually the attitude of the Etruscans as well.

 

[Pax Augusta]

thanks for sharing

y dna ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253


regions of samples :

https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?

Earliest Messapic inscriptions in italy begin in 7th century BC.

This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?







This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

1. All of them supposedly. This study solely focused on Daunians.
2. Totally agree. Daunians might have been there much earlier for all we know.

 

[real expert]

Source? How many north Africans do you see here?

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2a1c3a/

Maybe you confuse with L2a1c1.........

Quite frankly, I can’t remember from which forum I got this information, it could’ve been reddit. What I recall is, that a North African/Tunisian individual who had the mtdna L claimed that L2a1c3a is pretty common among Berbers. With that said, it’s very possible that he conflated L2a1c3a with L2a1c1. Anyway, we’ll soon see whether the carriers of L2a1c3a and L2b1a were Etruscans proper, or North Africans/ North African admixed Etruscans.

 

[kingdavid]

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?
This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

SGR001 is dated to early midiveal 670-774Ad and he show along with ORD010
Some move thowrds near east in pca according to paper... ( page 5)


P.s
I don't think he is daunian even his y haplogroup is I1 a nordic haplogroup...
The other ones in the list above supposed to be daunian dated from 1157bc-275bc

 

[Jovialis]

SGR001 is dated to early midiveal 670-774Ad and he show along with ORD010
Some move thowrds near east in pca according to paper... ( page 5)

P.s
I don't think he is daunian even his y haplogroup is I1 a nordic haplogroup...
The other ones in the list above supposed to be daunian dated from 1157bc-275bc

He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.

 

[kingdavid]

He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.

Could be
Did someone uploaded him to gedmatch ?
What are his k12b values ?
Did he show high northwest african % ?

P.s
Did normans were in this region ( given his y haplogroup)
Or the dates of him are much before there arrival

 

[torzio]

He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.

where did you get Moorish from ??

Moors are basically Berbers that became Arabinized after the Arabs invaded NW Africa


Early Medieval individual (SGR001 (670 - 774) calCE (95.4%)) belonging to haplogroup I1-M253, which is common in Northern Europe and previously also detected in a 6th Century Langobard burial from North Italy.

SGR001 — San Giovanni Rotondo — Date 1285 ± 23 BP; 670 - 774 calCE — Haplogroups U3a - I1-M253 — Genome coverage 0.044 — # of SNPs 59,213

San Giovanni Rotondo The San Giovanni Rotondo samples come from the osteo-archaeological collection of the Museum of Anthropology of the University of Padova and are not associated to any further record with the exception of a broad “Iron Age” archaeological label and may be part of the samples brought to the Museum by Prof. Santo Tiné in the 1960s

Looks more Lombard to me ............moving south after the Lombards went to Italy and took it from the Ostrogoths and then established southern Italy as Lombard , especially areas like Benevento region in Italy

 

[torzio]

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?







This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

paper separates them into

 

[real expert]

...............................

Iberia. However, a prehistoric introgression of African mtDNA lineages into Eastern Europe (approximately 10 000 years ago) seems to be probable only for European-specific subclade L2a1a, defined by coding region mutations at positions 6722 and 12903 and detected in Czechs and Slovaks. Further studies of the nature of African admixture in gene pools of Europeans require the essential enlargement of databases of African complete mitochondrial genomes.".......

By, the way, how did the SSA mtDNA L2 end up in Europe 10,000 years ago? To me, it appears that it is only plausible that it was meditated by SSA admixed North Africans who found their way via Gibraltar, Iberia to Central/Eastern Europe. It’s very unlikely that a population straight from West or Central Africa went to Europe.

 

[Pax Augusta]

By, the way, how did the SSA mtDNA L2 end up in Europe 10,000 years ago? To me, it appears that it is only plausible that it was meditated by SSA admixed North Africans who found their way via Gibraltar, Iberia to Central/Eastern Europe. It’s very unlikely that a population straight from West or Central Africa went to Europe.

10000 years ago did ancestral components and SSA admixed North Africans exist? I don't think so, there were just hunter gatherers everywhere.
But if such an ancient introgression is hypothesized for Czechs and Slovaks, I do not see why it cannot be hypothesized for others as well.

 

[real expert]

10000 years ago did ancestral components and SSA admixed North Africans exist? I don't think so, there were just hunter gatherers everywhere.
But if such an ancient introgression is hypothesized for Czechs and Slovaks, I do not see why it cannot be hypothesized for others as well.

Sorry, I didn't quite get what you mean. Do you think SSA hunter gathers wandered directly to Europe, 10,000 years ago? And what about the Iberomaurusians from around 15 k years ago? They were 1/3 SSA-like.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Sorry, I didn't quite get what you mean. Do you think SSA hunter gathers wandered directly to Europe, 10,000 years ago? And what about the Iberomaurusians from around 15 k years ago? They were 1/3 SSA-like.

It's not my opinion, it's a hypothesis of the study on how certain L2 mtDNAs arrived among Slavs. The ancestral composition of the Iberomaurusians is based on a two-way admixture scenario based on the samples available. However you are right, they have been modeled as if they were 65% Natufian and 35% SSA circa.

 

[Jovialis]

where did you get Moorish from ??

Moors are basically Berbers that became Arabinized after the Arabs invaded NW Africa


Early Medieval individual (SGR001 (670 - 774) calCE (95.4%)) belonging to haplogroup I1-M253, which is common in Northern Europe and previously also detected in a 6th Century Langobard burial from North Italy.

SGR001 — San Giovanni Rotondo — Date 1285 ± 23 BP; 670 - 774 calCE — Haplogroups U3a - I1-M253 — Genome coverage 0.044 — # of SNPs 59,213

San Giovanni Rotondo The San Giovanni Rotondo samples come from the osteo-archaeological collection of the Museum of Anthropology of the University of Padova and are not associated to any further record with the exception of a broad “Iron Age” archaeological label and may be part of the samples brought to the Museum by Prof. Santo Tiné in the 1960s

Looks more Lombard to me ............moving south after the Lombards went to Italy and took it from the Ostrogoths and then established southern Italy as Lombard , especially areas like Benevento region in Italy

Do you know the history of medieval Foggia? Also how on earth could they be Lombard influenced if they're pulled south and west of modern Puglia on the PCA?

 

[kingdavid]

In 1224, Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II, responding to religious uprisings in Sicily, expelled all Muslims from the island, transferring many to Lucera (Lugêrah, as it was known in Arabic) over the next two decades. In this controlled environment, they could not challenge royal authority and they benefited the crown in taxes and military service. Their numbers eventually reached between 15,000 and 20,000, leading Lucera to be called Lucaera Saracenorum because it represented the last stronghold of Islamic presence in Italy. During peacetime, Muslims in Lucera were predominantly farmers. They grew durum wheat, barley, legumes, grapes and other fruits. Muslims also kept bees for honey.[5]
The colony thrived for 75 years until it was sacked in 1300 by Christian forces under the command of Giovanni Pippino di Barletta, with the acquiescence of Charles II of Naples. The majority of the city's Muslim inhabitants were slaughtered or – as happened to almost 10,000 of them – sold into slavery,[6] or exiled, with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea.[7] T

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucera

 

[Archetype0ne]

In 1224, Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II, responding to religious uprisings in Sicily, expelled all Muslims from the island, transferring many to Lucera (Lugêrah, as it was known in Arabic) over the next two decades. In this controlled environment, they could not challenge royal authority and they benefited the crown in taxes and military service. Their numbers eventually reached between 15,000 and 20,000, leading Lucera to be called Lucaera Saracenorum because it represented the last stronghold of Islamic presence in Italy. During peacetime, Muslims in Lucera were predominantly farmers. They grew durum wheat, barley, legumes, grapes and other fruits. Muslims also kept bees for honey.[5]
The colony thrived for 75 years until it was sacked in 1300 by Christian forces under the command of Giovanni Pippino di Barletta, with the acquiescence of Charles II of Naples. The majority of the city's Muslim inhabitants were slaughtered or – as happened to almost 10,000 of them – sold into slavery,[6] or exiled, with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea.[7] T

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucera

It seems Albania has a tradition of being exilé friendly. Be it with these Saracens, Jews fleeing Nazis during WW2, Turkish Crypto billionaires or even Voldemord (for those familiar with Harry Potter) [emoji38].

 

[torzio]

Do you know the history of medieval Foggia? Also how on earth could they be Lombard influenced if they're pulled south and west of modern Puglia on the PCA?

the paper shows he only matches Ice-Man ( fig A )

Where does it say he matches Apulians ?