Immigration The Lives of German Turks

[Yetos]

the photo is 'all the money',

 

[Angela]

the photo is 'all the money',

Please don't post material in languages other than English.

Cut it out.

 

[Yetos]

Please don't post material in languages other than English.

Cut it out.

ok got yourmark,

but to make devil's advocat,
If I translated would it be ok?

 

[Ailchu]

All of that be as it may, however, it's a fact that in Europe a white Christian can move to another country in Europe and just never be accepted as a "full" citizen. That's true at least up to the second generation. It was and remains completely different in the U.S.

Different histories, perhaps.

it's changing in europe. more and more people really do not care anymore. in america it never really had to change because american was always just a nationality. there still are different ethnic and racial identities in america but they are not tied to the nationality called american but to racial concepts like white or black. or also still to european nationalities, which in the eyes of americans are still tied to ethnicities i believe. i wonder how do americans think about european nationalities? for example do they consider everyone as "full" italian, french, greek, german who lives there or do they also still look at the ancestry of those persons? is just the american nationality and with all the european identities it still has something to do with ethnicity? is someone like balotelli a full italian for americans?

also it doesn't matter if someone is white or not, especially not in europe where the term white isn't really used that often and nationality and ethnicity is still way more important. probably most who care about the ancestry of a person to consider someone "full" citizen or not will make no or only little difference between "white" and "non-white" here in europe. that wouldn't make any sense if they made a difference here, if you think about it. why should they make a difference? and those who do not care about ethnicity will make no difference anyway. there are mostly those 2 kinds of people. this term will never be used in europe as it's used in the U.S. or other parts of the americas. and honestly i hope it will never become like this. there really should be no differences made.

 

[bicicleur 2]

The US is still very much a nation of immigrants. In southern California it's hard to pass a day without hearing someone speak in a different language (and I don't refer to Spanish). In my neighborhood, while taking a walk, I can see Sikhs in turbans and Indians in saris, Oriental couples with the wife dutifully walking several paces behind, and young men excitedly talking in Farsi. It may be different in, say, rural Mississippi, but in the large population centers immigration is alive and well.

I'll quote Wikipedia,

"In absolute numbers, the United States has a larger immigrant population than any other country, with 47 million immigrants as of 2015.This represents 19.1% of the 244 million international migrants worldwide, and 14.4% of the U.S. population."

ok, you see them walking by, but do you mingle?
when you throw a BBQ in your garden, who do you invite?

 

[Angela]

I'll leave Shissem to answer for himself, but at my New Year's Day open house you would have found my best friend Ruth, Jewish, and her two half Jewish/half Italian children, my husband's Jewish partner and his wife, my husband's Jewish best friend, his Irish/Italian wife,and his half Jewish children, my dear Jamaican friend and her husband and children, my husband's office manager, Puerto Rican, who has become like a member of the family, and her daughter, my Bavarian descent friend and her husband and children, a Croatian couple with whom we're very friendly, an Irish friend and her Italian husband, the German/Scottish family across the street (I used to be guardian for their children if anything happened), a Sicilian descent couple, my dear friend with ancestry from Abruzzo and Calabria and her Irish descent husband, my study mate at Law School, a neighbor (Greek) and her English husband, at least six or seven of my husband's Italian descent friends and their wives and children, some Italian and some not, oh, and my Cuban descent neighbor (Peruvian wife) and their son, one of my son's best friends. Plus some various Irish/German/English mutts, neighbors of ours.

It may not include someone from every ethnic group in America, but it's pretty broad in scope, and definitely not chosen for that reason. Like everyone else you pick up friends from work, your children's schools, hobbies, clubs, the country club, the neighborhood, etc.

This would also not be possible in certain areas, but New York is very cosmopolitan, and nowadays the old ethnic "enclaves" are gone, and whoever can afford a house in your neighborhood will live there, no restrictions applied.

To paraphrase Martin Luther King again, it's the content of a man's character which counts, not the color of the skin, or the "ethnicity", or the religion. It's such a simple principle, but put into action, it can change the world.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I'll leave Shissem to answer for himself, but at my New Year's Day open house you would have found my best friend Ruth, Jewish, and her two half Jewish/half Italian children, my husband's Jewish partner and his wife, my husband's Jewish best friend, his Irish/Italian wife,and his half Jewish children, my dear Jamaican friend and her husband and children, my husband's office manager, Puerto Rican, who has become like a member of the family, and her daughter, my Bavarian descent friend and her husband and children, a Croatian couple with whom we're very friendly, an Irish friend and her Italian husband, the German/Scottish family across the street (I used to be guardian for their children if anything happened), a Sicilian descent couple, my dear friend with ancestry from Abruzzo and Calabria and her Irish descent husband, my study mate at Law School, a neighbor (Greek) and her English husband, at least six or seven of my husband's Italian descent friends and their wives and children, some Italian and some not, oh, and my Cuban descent neighbor (Peruvian wife) and their son, one of my son's best friends. Plus some various Irish/German/English mutts, neighbors of ours.

It may not include someone from every ethnic group in America, but it's pretty broad in scope, and definitely not chosen for that reason. Like everyone else you pick up friends from work, your children's schools, hobbies, clubs, the country club, the neighborhood, etc.

This would also not be possible in certain areas, but New York is very cosmopolitan, and nowadays the old ethnic "enclaves" are gone, and whoever can afford a house in your neighborhood will live there, no restrictions applied.

To paraphrase Martin Luther King again, it's the content of a man's character which counts, not the color of the skin, or the "ethnicity", or the religion. It's such a simple principle, but put into action, it can change the world.

yes, it is quite diverse, and there is a logic behind it

but what about the 'Sikhs in turbans and Indians in saris, Oriental couples with the wife dutifully walking several paces behind, and young men excitedly talking in Farsi' which Shissem meets in is neighbourhood?

we all like to surround us with people with whom we grew up, people from our neighbourhood and people with whom we have good daily contact
but not necessarily with newcomers who don't do efforts themselves to socialise with the whole community

it is logic that this makes a more diverse public in America than in European countries

 

[Angela]

yes, it is quite diverse, and there is a logic behind it

but what about the 'Sikhs in turbans and Indians in saris, Oriental couples with the wife dutifully walking several paces behind, and young men excitedly talking in Farsi' which Shissem meets in is neighbourhood?

we all like to surround us with people with whom we grew up, people from our neighbourhood and people with whom we have good daily contact
but not necessarily with newcomers who don't do efforts themselves to socialise with the whole community

it is logic that this makes a more diverse public in America than in European countries

Well, an Indian couple, where the wife doesn't wear a sari and the husband doesn't wear a turban, although the grandmother does wear "Indian" clothing, moved across the street in the summer and she's certainly making an effort: she put up Halloween decorations (I made a point of telling her to send her children over for Halloween treats), Thanksgiving decorations, and she put a wreath on the door and lighted the two fir trees in front of the house. If I still live here next New Year's Day and I have a New Year's Open House again, I would definitely invite them, if for no other reason than it's considered rude not to invite the neighbors when you're having a big, noisy bash like that with lots of cars cluttering up the street.

The East Asians seem a bit more resistant, but perhaps in time they'll try to assimilate more as well.

I'll tell you one thing, if two women from the Welcome Wagon hadn't gone to my Indian neighbor's house, and all the closest neighbors hadn't made an effort to go over and bring her a gift, cookies or a cake, when they moved in, if we didn't smile and wave when we saw them, and complement them on their decorations, and talk to their children nicely, I have a feeling she might have been hesitant about making such an effort. A lot of the time you get back what you put out; at least that's my experience.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Well, an Indian couple, where the wife doesn't wear a sari and the husband doesn't wear a turban, although the grandmother does wear "Indian" clothing, moved across the street in the summer and she's certainly making an effort: she put up Halloween decorations (I made a point of telling her to send her children over for Halloween treats), Thanksgiving decorations, and she put a wreath on the door and lighted the two fir trees in front of the house. If I still live here next New Year's Day and I have a New Year's Open House again, I would definitely invite them, if for no other reason than it's considered rude not to invite the neighbors when you're having a big, noisy bash like that with lots of cars cluttering up the street.
The East Asians seem a bit more resistant, but perhaps in time they'll try to assimilate more as well.
I'll tell you one thing, if two women from the Welcome Wagon hadn't gone to my Indian neighbor's house, and all the closest neighbors hadn't made an effort to go over and bring her a gift, cookies or a cake, when they moved in, if we didn't smile and wave when we saw them, and complement them on their decorations, and talk to their children nicely, I have a feeling she might have been hesitant about making such an effort. A lot of the time you get back what you put out; at least that's my experience.

ok, that's nice
it's a two ways game

 

[Angela]

ok, that's nice
it's a two ways game

To be fair, I don't know if the "Welcome Wagon" custom is broadspread across the U.S. for newcomers to an area, although I know it's custom to always go to new neighbors with a gift or food or wine. It certainly was where I moved to in the U.S., which was not New York City.

I think it started as an advertising tool by local businesses to give newcomers coupons, pamphlets, etc., but it turned into something else, at least in Long Island. Two women came to our home not only with the basket of coupons for local businesses, but with information on the library, on local civic associations, on groups for mothers with young children, working women groups, local sports teams, on charities, on local churches, and an invitation to join the local Newcomers Club, which held local meetings, cocktail parties, dinners, outings, dinner dances, etc. Then people could branch out from there to connect with "locals".

I don't know of anything remotely resembling this anywhere in Europe. I know people who transferred to work in the financial sector in London who literally socialize with almost no Brits whatsoever, certainly not in their homes.

It's completely different.

That's why I'm always amazed when people say New Yorkers aren't friendly. I had a whole circle of friends within a month.

The sad part is when the recipients are so sick and twisted that they abuse it. That psycho Pakistani terrorist in Southern California killed the very people who had just given him and his wife a baby shower attended by dozens of people.

So, yes, it has to be a two way street.

 

[[email protected]]

I'm getting back to this discussion late, but to bicicleur's comments/questions . . .

First, my point was that the US is still a nation of immigrants, not that we've solved all the problems of integration. And to another of your points, that this is no longer the land of opportunity. I believe it still is because nothing more than opportunity was ever offered. Many immigrants fail, but they have been given the chance to succeed. The difference today is that so many other countries now also provide greater opportunity making the US far less unique.

I'll admit that integration of new immigrants is a mixed bag. There is, unfortunately, less 'community' today for everyone and statistics show that few suburbanites make friends of their next door neighbors, no matter their ethnicity. However, this is more due to the computers, IPads, and smart TVs that keep people in doors. This last Christmas was rather sad as my wife and I came out of the house to see the children playing with their new toys and riding their new bikes, but the streets were silent. This is a very different world from the one I grew up in where I spent more time outside, playing with my friends, than in doors.

So, I can't say I've ever invited the Sikh that lives on the next block to a bbq . . . but then I didn't invite anyone except my wife and kids. Again, however, that's an issue of how less social we are today not that we're bigoted (though some, of course, are).

 

[bicicleur 2]

the death of general Soleimani demonstrates the existence of different clans in Iraq who fight each other
some are chearing and celebrating the death
others are demonstrating and crying 'death to America' on his funeral
this clanlike behaviour still exists in the Middle East, North Africa, India and some Central Asian countries like Afghanistan

some immigrants in Europe still live in clans
e.g. there are sometimes clashes between immigrant Turks and Kurds
and there are fierce pro-Erdogan supporters and natioalistic organisations like the Grey Wolves
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_(organization)

these people will never consider themselves as European
I think they don't belong here

 

[Ailchu]

the death of general Soleimani demonstrates the existence of different clans in Iraq who fight each other
some are chearing and celebrating the death
others are demonstrating and crying 'death to America' on his funeral
this clanlike behaviour still exists in the Middle East, North Africa, India and some Central Asian countries like Afghanistan

are those 2 groups "clans" or two opposing political positions?
it is the same here. some would cheer if trump fails as a president others would be sad.

 

[bicicleur 2]

are those 2 groups "clans" or two opposing political positions?
it is the same here. some would cheer if trump fails as a president others would be sad.

it's more than that
inside the clan where you're born opposed views are not allowed
it's us against them

and in this particular case, they even have armed milicia organised

 

[Ailchu]

it's more than that
inside the clan where you're born opposed views are not allowed
it's us against them

and in this particular case, they even have armed milicia organised

do you mean iraq? they have armed militia because the country is unstable and the US has quite a lot to do with it. (trumps latest actions and stupid tweets will only fire up everything)
the turkish grey wolfes are an extreme, it's no surprise that they are not considered to be german. but that's not the case with german/turkish guy in the first post.

 

[bicicleur 2]

do you mean iraq? they have armed militia because the country is unstable and the US has quite a lot to do with it. (trumps latest actions and stupid tweets will only fire up everything)
the turkish grey wolfes are an extreme, it's no surprise that they are not considered to be german. but that's not the case with german/turkish guy in the first post.

not just Iraq
also in Syria, Afghanistan, Lybia and many other countries

yes, armed milicia was just 'in this particular case', I didn't say it was a general rule
and some may join a milicia because otherwise they can't defend themselves, but others join the milicia because they believe they have an defenseless ennemie to fight

Arabian spring didn't work, and it never will as long as these people with this mentality are around
it was naïve of Obama and Europe to believe that genuine democracy was possible in these countries

no, a small minority joins an armed milicia, but a larger quantity belongs to a 'clan'
probably they are still a minority
I just mentioned this mentality exists in these countries, and it is much more common than in Europe

Turkish grey wolves are an extreme, but they are supported by Erdogan and many Turks in Europe listen to his propaganda and identify themselves with it
here in Belgium the Turkish flags were raised when Turkey invaded Syrian Kurdistan

 

[[email protected]]

This reminds me of the early history of Roman and Athenian democracy; first the tribes had to be broken up into separate voting blocs that cut across tribal lines.

 

[bicicleur 2]

a few hours after the death of general Soleimani, there was a demonstration in St Jans Molenbeek, a Brussels suburb where hardcore immigrants live that don't integrate
it was attended by 100 - 200 mostly men and a few fully covered women

somehow most of them got an asylum as 'refugee', while in fact they are supporters of the oppressive system where they come from
these people will never consider themselves as European

I know this is an extreme example
but all immigrants have some ties to their home country
and some can overcome and integrate and some simply can't
they live in these suburbs and don't want to mingle or socialise with others
they'll never forget the ideas and prejudices they got from their home country
it is the failure of Europe to allow these people in

 

[Ailchu]

ok got yourmark,

but to make devil's advocat,
If I translated would it be ok?

there would be nothing that speaks against it i guess. if you translate it i'm sure you can post it.