Immigration The Lives of German Turks

[Angela]

case closed
end of discussion

except .. do you realy believe German judges have different standards for native Germans and for immigrants? The law isn't the law there?
that is what you seem to imply - you would be an impartial judge, but what to think of the Germans?
I hope I get this wrong.

I don't know. I'm not part of the judicial system there so I have no first hand knowledge of it. I can tell you that eighty years ago, white American judges, especially but not only in the south absolutely were not impartial, and treated blacks far worse than whites.

As for the present time, there are black organizations which believe that it still goes on today. I've never seen it in my life, and this is something with which I have a lot of experience. The reason that so many more inmates are black than white is because of a myriad of reasons, one of which, unfortunately, is that they commit more of the crimes, again, for a myriad of reasons. Another huge reason is that most of them don't have the funds to hire good lawyers, and are stuck with Legal Aid attorneys who are usually fresh out of law school and/or don't have the ability or credentials to get a job with a good firm.

Plus, I wasn't speaking necessarily of what IS, in Germany or elsewhere, but of what SHOULD be. What Martin Luther King said is as right today as it was when he said it, and it will always be right. Each man should be (and deserves to be) judged on the content of his character, not the color of his skin. I might add, or his religion, language, or what he eats.

Between the schooling of the nuns, and equally or even more so the teaching of my parents, that is what I firmly believe and have practiced all my conscious life. Never, ever, have I disdained or treated disparagingly any human being on the basis of the "group" to which he belongs. If I were "back in the fold" of the Church, that would be a "sin" and a matter for confession, like the lesser sins of lack of patience and a hot temper and scathing tongue when I do lose it. I'm ashamed of those transgressions, but I can't even imagine committing the former. The "obvious" sins I've never committed...well, I haven't gone to church on Sundays, and I tell "white", polite lies, but that's it.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I don't know. I'm not part of the judicial system there so I have no first hand knowledge of it. I can tell you that eighty years ago, white American judges, especially but not only in the south absolutely were not impartial, and treated blacks far worse than whites.
As for the present time, there are black organizations which believe that it still goes on today. I've never seen it in my life, and this is something with which I have a lot of experience. The reason that so many more inmates are black than white is because of a myriad of reasons, one of which, unfortunately, is that they commit more of the crimes, again, for a myriad of reasons. Another huge reason is that most of them don't have the funds to hire good lawyers, and are stuck with Legal Aid attorneys who are usually fresh out of law school and/or don't have the ability or credentials to get a job with a good firm.
Plus, I wasn't speaking necessarily of what IS, in Germany or elsewhere, but of what SHOULD be. What Martin Luther King said is as right today as it was when he said it, and it will always be right. Each man should be (and deserves to be) judged on the content of his character, not the color of his skin. I might add, or his religion, language, or what he eats.
Between the schooling of the nuns, and equally or even more so the teaching of my parents, that is what I firmly believe and have practiced all my conscious life. Never, ever, have I disdained or treated disparagingly any human being on the basis of the "group" to which he belongs. If I were "back in the fold" of the Church, that would be a "sin" and a matter for confession, like the lesser sins of lack of patience and a hot temper and scathing tongue when I do lose it. I'm ashamed of those transgressions, but I can't even imagine committing the former. The "obvious" sins I've never committed...well, I haven't gone to church on Sundays, and I tell "white", polite lies, but that's it.

Why would you think a todays German judge would be more biassed than a todays American judge?

As for Black Lives Matters, things seem to be calmed down. I consider them a racist group accusing the others for racism.

As for the American laws you mention in you post n° 69, similar laws exist in Belgium, and I'm pretty confident they exist in Germany too.
However prejudices persist, you can forbid them, it does not mean they dissapear.
It is also true that certain nationalities/ethnicities or groups of immigrants are more involved in crime or negligent behaviour than others.
Some home owners or some employers do avoid these groups, because they think they may bring trouble.
I agree it is not right to associate everyone of such group with the behaviour/crimes of a few individuals of this group.
If such biass by a home owner or an employer can be proven, he will be persecuted in Belgium, and I think it is the same in Germany.

As for the video you show, the owner of the restaurant would be persecuted too for such behaviour.

 

[Farstar]

Farstar, you've a very good poster, so I hope you didn't find my tone offensive. I get a little sharp about this issue sometimes because I'm an immigrant myself, and have lived in both Europe and the U.S.

I do understand what you're saying in terms of the fact that instead of just speaking with an accent, and keeping some of their culture in their private life there are some immigrants who carry it too far. That was not at all the case with the European immigrants to the U.S. If anything, other than family structure and food, the second generation jettisoned their "ancestors'" culture as soon as they could. It's the third generation which has some nostalgia for it.

That is an emerging problem with Mexican immigration, perhaps fueled by the availability of Spanish language media, the ease of returning "home", etc. That is indeed problematic. America doesn't want to turn into Canada in that respect, with two "nations", each with their own language.

All of that said, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that African Americans are treated infinitely better here than Middle Easterners are treated in Europe, with the exception of a few insane lone wolfs who are dealt with swiftly. No one, but no one would be denied housing because of phenotype or language skills, or refused entrance to certain places, or harassed in the streets, or denied employment so long as they can be understood. The kind of "No Irish Need Apply" phase, or separate facilities for blacks and whites are far in the past.

Most of this is beyond philosophical discussions about immigration. It is absolutely NEVER right to harass other human beings because they don't look like you or sound like you. It's inhumane. There is just no excuse for it, ever, no matter what.

That's all I'll say on the subject.

I completely agree that humans need to be treated as individuals, and not as members of a (/n opposed) group. This is the ideal. Probably nobody is perfect on this, but I agree that we should go towards this goal.

My statement was not if the US or Germany are more or less racist than the other. I think this is a question that cannot be answered, since it is not clear at all what is racism and what is just preference. What I said is that if I had to choose, I would prefer to be a Middle Easterner in Germany than an African American in the US. The reason is that young male African Americans are killed and imprisoned at amazing rates, and they are very often raised by single moms. In Europe, there can be some extremists that might create some nuisance from time to time (but they also create these nuisances to other selected groups, such as gays, etc.), but the probability of having such a brutish life (as many African American communities have) is much lower.

It is not clear to me if this negative outcomes for African Americans in the US are due to (hidden) racism, or just natural outcomes of a society that chooses some values that are not part of that community. But the outcome is what it is, irrespective of the underlying causes for it.

Having said that, the US is much better at integrating high value added people (of any culture) than Europe.

 

[bigsnake49]

I think the lesson here for immigrants in both America and Europe is: Work hard, do not burden the social security net, learn the local language and assimilate if you don't want to be discriminated against. You can do all of that without losing your ethnic identity. But if you think of yourself as a Turk or a Greek or an Italian or a Spaniard first and a German or a French or an American second it is best you make some money and go back to your old country. You will not be happy in your adopted country.

 

[Angela]

I think the lesson here for immigrants in both America and Europe is: Work hard, do not burden the social security net, learn the local language and assimilate if you don't want to be discriminated against. You can do all of that without losing your ethnic identity. But if you think of yourself as a Turk or a Greek or an Italian or a Spaniard first and a German or a French or an American second it is best you make some money and go back to your old country. You will not be happy in your adopted country.

There isn't one European country where non-native born, and even worse, non-multiple generation native born people would be considered "real" citizens of the country virtually everyone, and it's much worse in some places than others. It is completely the opposite in the U.S., as I'm sure you know.

The only area which surprises me is Britain, especially considering the large numbers of black and South Asian citizens. Could it be the heightening of tensions over Brexit? If not, they're really hypocrites, with all their attacks on Trump's anti-immigration stance.

 

[bigsnake49]

I don't know if my first cousin that emigrated to Germany in the late 1950s is thought of as a German but he has done extremely well for himself. He got a degree in civil engineering and later on started building large apartment buildings. Married a German girl, had a kid who is now in charge of the building business. I don't think I have ever heard him complain about discrimination.

 

[[email protected]]

There isn't one European country where non-native born, and even worse, non-multiple generation native born people would be considered "real" citizens of the country virtually everyone, and it's much worse in some places than others. It is completely the opposite in the U.S., as I'm sure you know.

The only area which surprises me is Britain, especially considering the large numbers of black and South Asian citizens. Could it be the heightening of tensions over Brexit? If not, they're really hypocrites, with all their attacks on Trump's anti-immigration stance.

This map does surprise me. I well remember the racial violence in America during the '60s and all the lectures we received from the Europeans about our failure to achieve racial harmony. It was especially galling to listen to Swedes, who at that time lived in a mono-culture of blue eyed blonds, tell us how to create a multi-cultural society. I should hasten to add that the only time I've been in Sweden (Stockholm and Gotland) I found the people to be extremely nice and welcoming.

 

[Angela]

This map does surprise me. I well remember the racial violence in America during the '60s and all the lectures we received from the Europeans about our failure to achieve racial harmony. It was especially galling to listen to Swedes, who at that time lived in a mono-culture of blue eyed blonds, tell us how to create a multi-cultural society. I should hasten to add that the only time I've been in Sweden (Stockholm and Gotland) I found the people to be extremely nice and welcoming.

I never discuss the U.S. with my relatives in Italy, or any Europeans really. The misinformation or misunderstanding is absolutely appalling.

I got into a bit with someone online about Sweden, actually, just the other day. I regret it.

All this Janteloven, the Scandinavian countries are so egalitarian is just not true. An EU paper just recently showed that an incredibly small percentage of the population of Sweden owns the vast majority of the wealth. It's just that they don't "show it", or flaunt it, and everyone else lives very nicely as well.

It's part of their mythology, but not the reality.

Not to mention that now that they have actual minority people in their country, their nationalist, anti-immigration party is growing by leaps and bounds.

Always easier to throw stones when you're not dealing with the issues.

 

[bigsnake49]

I never discuss the U.S. with my relatives in Italy, or any Europeans really. The misinformation or misunderstanding is absolutely appalling.

I got into a bit with someone online about Sweden, actually, just the other day. I regret it.

All this Janteloven, the Scandinavian countries are so egalitarian is just not true. An EU paper just recently showed that an incredibly small percentage of the population of Sweden owns the vast majority of the wealth. It's just that they don't "show it", or flaunt it, and everyone else lives very nicely as well.

It's part of their mythology, but not the reality.

Not to mention that now that they have actual minority people in their country, their nationalist, anti-immigration party is growing by leaps and bounds.

Always easier to throw stones when you're not dealing with the issues.

Sweden has had immigrants from Greece and Yugoslavia since the 60s. It's just they just had an sudden influx of Muslims.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I never discuss the U.S. with my relatives in Italy, or any Europeans really. The misinformation or misunderstanding is absolutely appalling.

I got into a bit with someone online about Sweden, actually, just the other day. I regret it.

All this Janteloven, the Scandinavian countries are so egalitarian is just not true. An EU paper just recently showed that an incredibly small percentage of the population of Sweden owns the vast majority of the wealth. It's just that they don't "show it", or flaunt it, and everyone else lives very nicely as well.

It's part of their mythology, but not the reality.

Not to mention that now that they have actual minority people in their country, their nationalist, anti-immigration party is growing by leaps and bounds.

Always easier to throw stones when you're not dealing with the issues.

In every country there are people with opposed views on immigration.
There is no common ground, and talking to some doesn't show how the others think.
The 2016 immigration wave in Europe was a reality check however, many had an idealised view before.

 

[Ailchu]

There isn't one European country where non-native born, and even worse, non-multiple generation native born people would be considered "real" citizens of the country virtually everyone, and it's much worse in some places than others. It is completely the opposite in the U.S., as I'm sure you know.

The only area which surprises me is Britain, especially considering the large numbers of black and South Asian citizens. Could it be the heightening of tensions over Brexit? If not, they're really hypocrites, with all their attacks on Trump's anti-immigration stance.

no other surprises? switzerland? also greece surprised me a little bit, i thought they were quite open minded compared to the rest of southeastern europe and even europe. also why is ancestry so important in portugal according to this map and the numbers from my previous post above?
germany, excluding the eastern part, really doesn't seem to be much worse than the rest of western europe. except bavaria. bavaria is more conservative in many other questions they are known for this. maybe it has to do with them beeing wealthier and maybe also a bit with pride. i think tomenable made a thread about bavarians not wanting to be germans somewhere.
i found the site from where the map comes from. they have many other maps. but keep in mind, those graphics are from 2008.
http://www.atlasofeuropeanvalues.eu/new/europa-regio2.php?c2=society&map%5B%5D=&map%5B%5D=&map%5B%5D=&map%5B%5D=&map%5B%5D=278&map%5B%5D=&map%5B%5D=&button=

I never discuss the U.S. with my relatives in Italy, or any Europeans really. The misinformation or misunderstanding is absolutely appalling.

I got into a bit with someone online about Sweden, actually, just the other day. I regret it.

what did you argue about?

All this Janteloven, the Scandinavian countries are so egalitarian is just not true. An EU paper just recently showed that an incredibly small percentage of the population of Sweden owns the vast majority of the wealth. It's just that they don't "show it", or flaunt it, and everyone else lives very nicely as well.

It's part of their mythology, but not the reality.

they are almost as bad as switzerland and the U.S. but wasn't it initially an argument against their individualism?

 

[td120]

I would not trust the map too much, especially the Western part. The survey must have been anonymous but the answers might be quite different after several drinks. Easterners are not (yet) that "careful" about saying something not politically correct.
And then the question and answers seem to be quite general (Does it take into account religion/race/culture of the possible applicants for citizenship?This would affect the answers significantly)...

 

[Ailchu]

I would not trust the map too much, especially the Western part. The survey must have been anonymous but the answers might be quite different after several drinks. Easterners are not (yet) that "careful" about saying something not politically correct.
And then the question and answers seem to be quite general (Does it take into account religion/race/culture of the possible applicants for citizenship?This would affect the answers significantly)...

i agree about the question beeing a bit loose. the question also doesn't specify the number of ancestors and how far back in time it goes. but i think the last part, easterners not beeing that careuful might be because a lot of people in their close environment think the same and it's more accepted. in the western part some might be more careful but maybe that's because more people are not sharing their opinion so the overall effect on the poll might not be that significant.

 

[Angela]

I'm only surprised by Britain's percentages.

I agree with td in the sense that the actual numbers are probably even higher. I have a friend from France, from Marseilles, who lived in Paris for 20 years, but everyone still called her "La Marseillaise". My mother was always "La Tosca" when she went to see my father's family in the mountains of Emilia. The Swiss Italians are separate from the Swiss Germans.

If they're like that within their own borders I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept someone born and raised in another country even if that person is white and Christian. So just imagine the attitude if they are North African and Muslim.

It is just different here.

As I said, I don't discuss politics at all with my Italian relatives. My parents didn't either. In fact, even though my father was far past thirty when he came to America, and my mother in her twenties, they rapidly adopted what I would call an "American" view of the world, and a conservative American view at that. Europeans may not understand the significance of this, but my Dad became a Republican and a die hard fan of Nixon's. My mother became even more religious because of the influence of the friends she made here. She adored the fact that in America, families-mother, father, all the children-would go to Mass together each Sunday, and not just the women and young children. So, she not only didn't discuss politics with her family, but she wouldn't discuss religion with her sister, for example, who became an agnostic, if not an atheist, over time.

Most of both sides of my family there are decidedly "people of the left", and while I'm proud of the family members who were Socialist and Communist and became partisans, and while, imo, their hearts were in the right place and given the same choices I would probably have wound up there too, I'm pretty conservative even by American standards, so you can imagine what they think of my politics.

I don't even see eye to eye with the ones who claim they're on the "right". Imo, the European people of the "right" are just socialists who are either very nationalistic, or out and out racists. I don't think they quite understand how one can be absolutely not racist, and yet on the right in terms of the free market, limited government etc. Classical liberalism is not a concept with which they're familiar.

It absolutely astounded them how quickly my parents adopted what they saw as an "American" view of the world, and a conservative American view at that. It's actually quite common with immigrants, especially immigrants from Europe, but a mystery to them.

When, like me, you're born in one place, spend your childhood there, but your teen years and adulthood except for a couple of weeks or a month here and there per year in another country you can sometimes feel you don't quite "fit" anywhere. When I'm in Italy I can wind up feeling very American, and here I feel quite Italian. My husband doesn't have these issues, but then he's third generation. My politics, and my world view are, however, completely American. Btw, he makes me look like a modern liberal.

 

[[email protected]]

I was surprised, and heartened, by how recent immigrants to the US tried to become as 'American' as they could be, as quickly as possible. Friends of ours from Ireland wanted, to our regret, to drop their accents as quickly as they could. And they succeeded. Also, I was a Boy Scout leader for a number of years and we had many immigrant parents (okay, maybe half a dozen) bring their sons to us because, as they expressed it, they saw Scouting as something quintessentially American; they wanted their children to fit in as Americans as soon as may be.

 

[Angela]

I was surprised, and heartened, by how recent immigrants to the US tried to become as 'American' as they could be, as quickly as possible. Friends of ours from Ireland wanted, to our regret, to drop their accents as quickly as they could. And they succeeded. Also, I was a Boy Scout leader for a number of years and we had many immigrant parents (okay, maybe half a dozen) bring their sons to us because, as they expressed it, they saw Scouting as something quintessentially American; they wanted their children to fit in as Americans as soon as may be.

Scouting is one of the best aspects of American cultural life, and indeed I also see it as quintessentially "American". I always thought of George Bailey as a boy scout, and Gary Cooper in a lot of his roles, and John Boy. Westerns with Gary Cooper and Jimmy Stewart and John Wayne were favorites of my grandparents, and later on of my parents, thanks to the fact that movies with those stars were played over and over again on television when my parents came here. My father and mother liked the tv westerns as well, and I think that if I had ever asked them they would have said that the men in those films exemplified what they thought of as American values. They believed in American exceptionalism more than many native born Americans, because they had something to which to compare it. They believed wholeheartedly that much as they loved Italy and would never reject it, America provided them and their children with opportunities they never could have had in Europe, accepted them in a way that other Europeans often didn't, and they were grateful. They also believed that the values on display were the values which made America great, and they indeed wanted to meld them with their own for the benefit of their children.

That's the kind of little exposition I stopped making to my relatives; they just didn't get it, and never will, really.

 

[[email protected]]

Immigrants are special people and, I believe, the best of the nation they left. They obviously have initiative and 'guts', believe they can make a better life, and most often are the ones who will work hard to achieve it (even if in the end they fail). The US has been lucky to have received so many of them.

I'm not sure what has changed. Today some (many?) migrants are motivated more by the chance to take advantage of Western social benefit systems and have little desire to fit into the new nation's culture. I hope this is a small minority that we only notice because they make news.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Immigrants are special people and, I believe, the best of the nation they left. They obviously have initiative and 'guts', believe they can make a better life, and most often are the ones who will work hard to achieve it (even if in the end they fail). The US has been lucky to have received so many of them.

I'm not sure what has changed. Today some (many?) migrants are motivated more by the chance to take advantage of Western social benefit systems and have little desire to fit into the new nation's culture. I hope this is a small minority that we only notice because they make news.

when America was a country of immigrants, there was no social security system
everybody who came knew there were opportunities, but he/she had to make it on its own
nowadays America is very selective on immigration, you have to 'earn your green card' and have the proper skills and qualifications
I wouldn't say America is still the land of opportunities for every one

Europe was settled and didn't have these opportunities for hardworking newcomers
in the mean time they developped an overgenerous social security system, which also allows some abuses by both native dropouts and newcomers
many newcomers don't have the proper skills nor the right attitude, they just want to rely on 'the system'
Europe now tries to reject these people, but it's trapped by it's own laws that allows people to enter to easily and often forbids to expell them once they've entered

 

[Angela]

when America was a country of immigrants, there was no social security system
everybody who came knew there were opportunities, but he/she had to make it on its own
nowadays America is very selective on immigration, you have to 'earn your green card' and have the proper skills and qualifications
I wouldn't say America is still the land of opportunities for every one

Europe was settled and didn't have these opportunities for hardworking newcomers
in the mean time they developped an overgenerous social security system, which also allows some abuses by both native dropouts and newcomers
many newcomers don't have the proper skills nor the right attitude, they just want to rely on 'the system'
Europe now tries to reject these people, but it's trapped by it's own laws that allows people to enter to easily and often forbids to expell them once they've entered

Bicicleur,

America is "relatively" selective today (nothing like Canada or Australia, which are "extremely" selective) about the "legal" immigrants it takes in, other than refugees, of whom, by the way, there are a great number.

That wasn't always the case. People came to the U.S. from various social strata and with different levels of skills depending on the country and the era. There were middle class farmers and artisans, gentry, people fleeing religious persecution and the potato famine, and, from the late 19th century to early 20th century, vast numbers of relatively unskilled, often illiterate people to fill the factories and the vast tracts of open land.

The situation when my family came, when it was extremely selective in the people it accepted, was a new development.

In that whole period up to the early decades of the 20th century there were indeed no "social services". You either swam or sunk. By the time we arrived, it did exist, but my father would have died before he accepted what he would have considered "charity", whether it came from private funds or the state. That attitude is largely gone.

We have more than 11 million illegal immigrants, however, some from every corner of the globe, but mostly from Mexico, Central America etc., and most of them are completely unskilled, so a lot of them do wind up on social service rolls. Geography is destiny in some ways. Nothing separates the U.S. from millions upon millions of poor, unskilled people to its south. Europe, by contrast, has about 4 million, give or take. The reality, of course, is no one really knows how many are in the U.S., and the real issue is that there are tens of millions who could attempt to cross the border given the right circumstances.

The attitude has completely changed, however, in the intervening time. The children of the Italian immigrants who came to the U.S. didn't want to speak Italian, they didn't want to play soccer, they wanted to speak English, play baseball, become boy scouts, etc. It's only the third generation which is more nostalgic for some of the ties they lost.

It is very different with the Hispanic migration. Part of it is historical: big parts of the southwest used to be Mexican. Indeed, there are "Hispanic" families there who were in place before the Mayflower arrived. Part of it is the ease of going back and forth, and a big part of it is the media, which keeps them in touch with their home language and countries. None of that existed with European migration.

The attitude has also changed. Too much "leftist" claptrap, in my opinion, too many "natives" who no longer believe in "American" values and exceptionalism themselves, and so don't promote adoption of those values and assimilation as a goal.

All of that be as it may, however, it's a fact that in Europe a white Christian can move to another country in Europe and just never be accepted as a "full" citizen. That's true at least up to the second generation. It was and remains completely different in the U.S.

Different histories, perhaps.

 

[[email protected]]

The US is still very much a nation of immigrants. In southern California it's hard to pass a day without hearing someone speak in a different language (and I don't refer to Spanish). In my neighborhood, while taking a walk, I can see Sikhs in turbans and Indians in saris, Oriental couples with the wife dutifully walking several paces behind, and young men excitedly talking in Farsi. It may be different in, say, rural Mississippi, but in the large population centers immigration is alive and well.

I'll quote Wikipedia,

"In absolute numbers, the United States has a larger immigrant population than any other country, with 47 million immigrants as of 2015.This represents 19.1% of the 244 million international migrants worldwide, and 14.4% of the U.S. population."