Politics The movement of Ignidants all over the world,

You're not completely wrong, Yetos, but you have to be fair. China plays the capitalist card abroad, but it is not a democracy, and it is still a dictature at home. We can say, with a hint of irony, that the Chinese government has "the best of both worlds". I can imagine what would happen in Pekin if workers don't show up for work and organize a sit-in instead. I am old enough to remember Tien-An-Men...
 
yes lets coplete the word,
how may capitalistic corporations, and how many bankers send money there,

besides, do you know if some ecological international laws exist there?
the 2 post poluted cities in the world are in ex USSR where the old status in order to create cheap cost did not care,
so from the tires of trucks huge areas are polluted by Pb from the mines,


so in order Capitalism to get more profir the theory say
drop cost and sell high,
I think there can be no problem in a hard communistic status that is governed by a dictatorship of a party,
so the crisis, could it be because some capitals get a marriage with some communistic dictators?

the most exellent example is before few days when some from Forbes list enter the communist party,
someone with 7 billion property if I am correct,

so the expirement have succed,
the old system that kick down European communism, in theory the Banking system
today is collapsing the west,
in future if that system survives, in my opinion people will work all day, and will say thank you master if they are granded with a cup of rice or a piece of bread,

we must find a new system, away from banking system,

remember presidents are elected, Bankers not

we must stop moving in the linear right or left, cause capitalism got unite with communism,
that means either a Global goverment, and a global system under the Bankers-rulling parties,
either a new exit, a new pole of turning,
we must pass to 2 dimensions, instead of the old linear,

I also remember the Tien an men.

the crisis is because Bankers, in order to earn more they want to drop the cost of production,
and the most easy way, is to create a crisis of unemployment, and then hire with half pay,
and overpass laws about pollution,
 
the crisis is because Bankers, in order to earn more they want to drop the cost of production,
and the most easy way, is to create a crisis of unemployment,


This is false. If this was true, the biggest banks would exist in Africa. Poor and unemployed people are not good for economy. The biggest money businesses and banks made during economic boom. Check the statistics.
Banks lend you money, to help you grow your business. For this you agree to pay it back with interest. It is in bank interest that your business is successful. If you are not successful and go bankrupt, then banks don't make money, they actually lose money with bad business.
Banks also lend money to individuals. Why would banks wanted you to get fired from work? If you lose your job you won’t be able to pay back your loans and banks lose money on it. It doesn't make sense.
Actually cost of production is rising in China. This is a normal way when country gets developed.

Capitalism is not about to die. Capitalism is at least 300 years old. It wasn't formulated and invented by a scientist or politician way back. It happened naturally and gradually thanks to new technologies, machines, engines, faster production of goods, and grew slowly from humble beginning of first manufacturing in GB. Later it evolved through couple of hundreds of years, in what we call free market capitalism. It started benefiting nations so much that it killed feudalism with its strong backbone of hereditary rights. It showed socialism how socialism was unproductive, backward and unsustainable. In result, socialism was abandoned around the world. In comparison socialism was invented by philosophers and politicians, experimented against will of majorities, and eventually failed.
Capitalism is an evolutionary system that adapted itself to human nature. That's why it works, and the other production systems failed.
What we don't like most about capitalism is that capitalism has phases. Phase of growth known as economic boom, and phase of downturn that we call economic crises. These two phases are actually what make capitalism work. Economic crisis is the most important one for its success. Crisis weeds out bad and unproductive businesses. Businesses that survive are the once that were good and prosperous. Eventually it rewards every person in the country, businesses as well as people. One might compare capitalism to nature and natural selection, survival of the fittest. That’s why it worked 200 years ago and it works now.
So, we have another recession. Nothing new, it’s just a little different than other recessions, but they all differ somewhat. We’ll fix finances, slap few improved regulations, and life goes on…capitalism all the way.
Who will hate it, and tries their own economical model, will fail sooner or later and come back to the best economic system we have so far.
So what that it is not perfect, so are we, people. At least capitalism has ability to adapt quickly to changing environments and capricious human nature.
 
This is false. If this was true, the biggest banks would exist in Africa. Poor and unemployed people are not good for economy. The biggest money businesses and banks made during economic boom. Check the statistics.
Banks lend you money, to help you grow your business. For this you agree to pay it back with interest. It is in bank interest that your business is successful. If you are not successful and go bankrupt, then banks don't make money, they actually lose money with bad business.
Banks also lend money to individuals. Why would banks wanted you to get fired from work? If you lose your job you won’t be able to pay back your loans and banks lose money on it. It doesn't make sense.
Actually cost of production is rising in China. This is a normal way when country gets developed.

Capitalism is not about to die. Capitalism is at least 300 years old. It wasn't formulated and invented by a scientist or politician way back. It happened naturally and gradually thanks to new technologies, machines, engines, faster production of goods, and grew slowly from humble beginning of first manufacturing in GB. Later it evolved through couple of hundreds of years, in what we call free market capitalism. It started benefiting nations so much that it killed feudalism with its strong backbone of hereditary rights. It showed socialism how socialism was unproductive, backward and unsustainable. In result, socialism was abandoned around the world. In comparison socialism was invented by philosophers and politicians, experimented against will of majorities, and eventually failed.
Capitalism is an evolutionary system that adapted itself to human nature. That's why it works, and the other production systems failed.
What we don't like most about capitalism is that capitalism has phases. Phase of growth known as economic boom, and phase of downturn that we call economic crises. These two phases are actually what make capitalism work. Economic crisis is the most important one for its success. Crisis weeds out bad and unproductive businesses. Businesses that survive are the once that were good and prosperous. Eventually it rewards every person in the country, businesses as well as people. One might compare capitalism to nature and natural selection, survival of the fittest. That’s why it worked 200 years ago and it works now.
So, we have another recession. Nothing new, it’s just a little different than other recessions, but they all differ somewhat. We’ll fix finances, slap few improved regulations, and life goes on…capitalism all the way.
Who will hate it, and tries their own economical model, will fail sooner or later and come back to the best economic system we have so far.
So what that it is not perfect, so are we, people. At least capitalism has ability to adapt quickly to changing environments and capricious human nature.


hmmm interesting view,

lets take one by one,

if banks earn so much at the crisis time? then why both US and EU agree to support banks?
why they both raise taxes to give money to banks?

2nd

Capitalism is the philological word of a well studied method of economy based on the co-existance of treasury and private treasuries,
behind modern capitalism are many philoshophers, among them my favorite Adam Smith,
so capitalism is also a well studied model and not a peoples model,
the problem of Capitalism is that market can not be handle, is merchant, it can not control merchant, or monopolize it,
also the late 40 years economologist who invented money from nothing creating bubbles
besides the modern marriage of Capitalism with communism might show the future of Free world, turning all the planet into china model, but instead of communist party to have Bankers party,

so the best for capitalism in Europe was not the last 100 years but the times of James Watt and the after 50 years,
that means with out the Caynes theory, uppon which Europe was build 1945-1990 the time Ussr collapse,
so with out the Caynes theory Capitalism will bring us back to early industrial ages when people left villages to go to work to the dirty polluted cities of england which were blak by the ashes of coal, leaving 1 full family in 1 room,
what is the difference of capitalism conditions with the communistic conditions, since maybe you lived in an ex-east block country?

if leave bankers free, soon bad forms of coal will run our machines, like lignite,
no filter in the chimneys to collect flying dust, no pollution and green future,
remember that chernobill heavy rain that drop in south balkans raise the lemphmas by 400 in N greece Albania Fyrom and south Serbia.
who will stop bankers if tomorow they say it costs to have electric lets return to coal?
just ask your shelf why some breathing diseases drop after the drop of usage of coal,

I am not against Capitalism, But I agree with Caynes,
The state must the referee among people and Capitals, among workers and employees, among merchants and bankers,

so creation of a 3rd pole is a must before we return human conditions to 1700,
before we have a new early industrial era,
before we run to the point to sell our kidneys to live our child,
or to live with phymatiosis,

Now about communist and its theories,
Just remember the ancient Greek word Koinon = Bank
Κοινον Αθηναιων = Treasury of Athens,
All ancient cities-states had a private and a common wealth,
and there are many cases of common wealth,
I am not a communist, but every connection of κοινοκτημοσυνη (common property) with the Dictatorship of ex USSR is just a myth,

I still like the old Caynes Theory upon which Europe was build,
but today the need to create another pole to ballance the capitalist-Communist alliance is a must,
either we are doomed to return in 1700 conditions


ABOUT STATISTICS,
they are numbers, check how was Human societies before Watt and few years after Watt,
Besides my personal believe is that as a Green thought is created and helped clean the cities and prove our living conditions, same way an Anti-Banking thought must be created,
before we become all food of Bankers,

I do not want the dillema to sell my kidney or to send my daughter to ....
Let a famous Banker like G Sorros to have it,

and there many ways,

1 is that 80% of Greeks and 40% of Europeans did
redraw deposits,
2 stop giving gifts to Banks payed by tax payers,

The bubble money must boom and toxins must moved away from our economies and our lives,
by supporting Banks these days we only support the gang-green to enter more our society's body.



well if you see it you might say it is in Greece,
Yet is in the Heart of EU, Belgium and Dexia
the girl is working for the Dexia,

Such methods, I really wonder do we live in EU or in ex USSR
as you see the methods of modern capitalism are the same of ex-communism
same conditions,
at least in EU is a kick in face,
in ex USSR will be a exile to build a city in Siberia, and in China a shot in head as traitor of party,
the resume is one,
DO NOT PROTEST.
we control the goverments and the police

the carrot times are over,
donkey must whip rider before he did,
or the rider must get off donkey and either pull it, either find for new carrots
choose your act and pick your choices, :mad: :annoyed: :innocent::wary2: but not :petrified:


these are the best workers in the world,


Bankers want to be like one of them.
a cheap lean working machine, brained washed, to get more profit,
you do not need to live, a cup of rice, an aspirin,
you do not have the need for truth, Party or Banker knows it,
 
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This is false. If this was true, the biggest banks would exist in Africa. Poor and unemployed people are not good for economy. The biggest money businesses and banks made during economic boom. Check the statistics.

Hi LeBrok!
I agree, people just being poor does not help. But the process of making them poor yields short-term profit. During a boom phase, the majority is earning wealth, because markets grow, new markets emerge, new products are being invented, credit is expanding etc. A crisis already occurs if the growth just approaches zero, e.g. when growth resources mentioned are increasingly exhausted. But the debt interests still need to be earned from and payed back to somewhere. So what if profit can not be maintained further just by growth? Costs must be reduced in order to survive in the short-term. Lets hope that yet new markets can be conquered (hopefully not by war), or great innovations are further discovered.
 
73281-federal_taxes.jpg

The above is just a graph I found

for those who want analysis,

workers taxes raise from 10-40%
while corporations taxes drop from 30 to 10%

no further comment,



73239-4e9c29cda2c39.jpg



from the above maybe we must reconsider the thesis, about Eurozone

Maybe is not Greece Spain Portugal etc the problem, but Germany,

Maybe is Germany that must leave Eurozone and return to DMark with a ratio of

1DM=2 US$ =1,2 E

That will solve European crisis more easier and more peacefull,
than the forced, almost brutal measures that kill people or send them abroad,

Germany is the only economy that can hold a currency of >1.6 US $
while france is limited to 1.35 and the rest about 1-1,2 $

so release Germany's economy instead of pushing-pressing South Europe.
 
the bellow is from France a spot in tv

I think it is clear,

Until today IMF went after the bankrupt of the country,
Never before,

the first case that IMF went before the Boom is in Greece.

Lets see why.

seems like some bankers find a good way to avoid pay for work, and found cheap workers with the IMF methods,

enjoy THE MAN OF THE FUTURE,


 
for those who do not understand or do not know,

today Greece had the first Dead,

A protester who happened to be among the fight of kommunists and the anarchists

you the division still holds on,
the foght was for who the TV wil show as the Champion of Riot,
the Anarchist movement or the Communist Party striking force,

Dolcinians are outside the walls,
inside are both Inquisitor and Rich bishops and Bankers,
and the villagers are not satisfied anymore with carbage as reward
and we still arque on the old division of Left and right, and who makes bigger protest,

pittyfull cause soon we may hear that words again,

time 1:34

 
73508g-img_9302.jpg

no need to comment



the latest news give areests in NY
and among them Corneil West , proffesor in a University
and one of most famous of 'occupy wall street'

lets hope that is not a fiasco like DSK or the return of McCarty laws,
 
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the bellow spot was censored and forbiten in Biennale

 
I think that the indignants are just a bunch of people who have no clue how the economy works and protest in the hope that someone will explain to them what's going on. The problem is that even if specialists took the trouble to explain in detail the economic mechanism at work, most ordinary people wouldn't understand. That is really what is frustrating them.
 
I think that the indignants are just a bunch of people who have no clue how the economy works and protest in the hope that someone will explain to them what's going on. The problem is that even if specialists took the trouble to explain in detail the economic mechanism at work, most ordinary people wouldn't understand. That is really what is frustrating them.


interesting View,

so modern economy is not a simple model of people but a complicated system that needs high maths etc and written by PHD

But the world is turning,

and the ones that were up might get down,

but in order to turn the wheel, you need good captains

so the ones who put the brake, why they put it?
and the ones who lead the vehicle where are they taking it?
and for how long the wheel will be stoped?

half generation, 1 -2 generations?


the photo is from US where occupy wall street was forced to dismiss by police who used even plastic bullets

1056.jpg
 
These kids and ecologist/anarchist/whateverist bunch should rather get up and find a job. The first step to get the world back on its feet is getting the millions unemployed and stay-at-home-with-government-allowances to get back to work and start paying taxes. I am sick of these idiots thinking they know better than anyone what is better for our kids (cause as they shun any kind of responsabilities, they don't have any and live at mum's place). I suggest they do their bit for the environment and kill themselves.
 
in case some see it as a fun, or activism or new hippie movement

the problem of western world is not 'wall street' neither 'mein street'
neither 'berlin' or 'frankfurt'
etc

it is the hidden connections among mein street and wall street etc

it is the goverment for people or the goverment for bankers and them selves
 
according to ILO an international organization for labor the next year or 2 40 000 000 people will lose their jobs

how it has, we need 80 M work places, to reach the lvl of 2007 of % working
the latest econimical model is promising only 40 M places that means in 45 countries will be less 40 000 000 peole fired.

the estimation is among 118 countries that in 45 countries we fight have troubles,

so the one some call Arab spring maybe is not a spring,
But the first storms before winter,


well i did not find how many places in Europe but I quess many.
 
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You omit the decadent management of the States by themselves.

I think that the indignants are just a bunch of people who have no clue how the economy works and protest in the hope that someone will explain to them what's going on. The problem is that even if specialists took the trouble to explain in detail the economic mechanism at work, most ordinary people wouldn't understand. That is really what is frustrating them.

Yes, I think this time do you seem to have a point of view that goes farer than the first degree, that is clear. But this is no sufficient in itself. In particular, this is as you was giving a psychology course, to make recover the health to a mentally ill man: the experience shows, that - unfortunately - it doesn't work.

That is not all: this is not necessarily the people, who are economically ill, but in a such case as the Greece: this is unfortunately the State, which cannot manage himself.
You omit the decadent management of the Greece, which seem to be clear. Greece has now benefit several gives (at the order of "10^9" euros), and is simply furthermore in the debt. That is not tolerable. There is the same family at the executive power since decades. It seems to be an ancient monarchy, (and in this one, I surely see no christian value but it is another subject).

And would you know what else ? -My taunt's husband - a greek man - told already twenty years ago:

<<It was better when there was another dictature: "the Colonels's Greece".>>
 
<<It was better when there was another dictature: "the Colonels's Greece".>>


Heard that in Spain too, that when Franco was in power, things were easier...
On another hand, your remark on Christian values is a little bit weird for me, as the market is agnostic... Governments have to understand that social democracy is a thing of the past, we now have serious competition from emerging countries that will leave us to starve when all the businesses will be over there. They might be good enough to send us food parcel and humanitary aid though...
 
Sorry - maybe am I not clever enough to do this - but this is not evident to follow what you want to mean.

I don't know what you are really thinking. The quotation of my "uncle" was only relevant for have been said by a greek man. Therefore, we can approve, or disaprove.

Please for the "christian values" refer to the correspondant topic (I wrote this only into braket; and "seeing no christian value here" don't mean the there are "anti-christian values", and not even that I would see there christian values).

About the emergence of the new economies, I don't see what is the direct link with this topic, knowing: "The mouvement of indigniants".
 
<<It was better when there was another dictature: "the Colonels's Greece".>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makronisos

yes in dictatorship might be things better cause everyone who protested went there,

the siberia of greece at 1960-70's

Heard that in Spain too, that when Franco was in power, things were easier...
On another hand, your remark on Christian values is a little bit weird for me, as the market is agnostic... Governments have to understand that social democracy is a thing of the past, we now have serious competition from emerging countries that will leave us to starve when all the businesses will be over there. They might be good enough to send us food parcel and humanitary aid though...
Social goverments may past to time,

but what i see is that at least in each country there is a socialistic party,

we might compare that public aid is about to be canceled, but from that to tax citizens to support banks is far,

The model of modern capitalism is known
is not the chinese model but the India model

the 'own' method,
ask how many people in India are born with depths and how many fathers sell their kidney's
but India is Hindu religion or muslim,
if you support that method to drop the cost of labour,
then prepare your self to change religion, become either a muslim either a hindu,

Since when a goverment is a 'salvation army'?

the word is clear, transparency among goverment and Banks,

the theory of Caynes that build Europe might seen alien to some,
but is European inheritage, and without it, Europe will be nothing more Europe,
and the one's who dream that will Europe back to james Watt ages, remember that your sons will might live there,

STOP the creation of Bubble money and toxic pappers,

if a family is collapsed today nobody cares,
But if a bank collapse all goverment try to support

Neo-liberian must have the same measures with people as they have with Banks,

Stop connections among Mein Street and wall street
etc Berlin and Frankurt

the old European moto of Kings, By God's mercy,
Later become My power is the LOVE of my people
today is what? my power is the Banks and the corporations?
 
I hope to answer brievly to some of your questions.

Ok, first, I believe to know that your user-command to stop "toxic papers" was adressed only to Cimmerianbloke, and it rassure me. Be knowing that making bold charachters has no efficience, for the reason that a constructed argumentation make automatically this "bold" in the mind of people.

So:
I believe to understand that your question:
"Since when a goverment is a 'salvation army'?"
was ironical.

If this is indeed so, so it seem to go in opposition with one another of your such questions, knowing:
"the old European moto of Kings, By God's mercy,
Later become My power is the LOVE of my people
today is what? my power is the Banks and the corporations? ".

In particular, I find this question very relevant;
but unfortunately, in the practice, we are forced to see that "My power is the Banks and corporations ?" seem - pratically - to be frequently true.
For the reason, which I would like to disapprove if could, that "Love" is not quantifiable, when the reason of money is quantifiable, indeed by this money itself.

But you seem to be right: this is a malediction, to which I have this time no answer.
 

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