the origin of al Andalus

[Palermo Trapani]

The Berber Garamantes were already raiding sub-Saharan Africa for slaves before 0 BC.

The Garamantes were a Sahara Desert Berber Tribe in what is Modern Libya, correct? So they would have closer interactions with SSA tribes in what is modern Chad, Sudan and Niger? I would think.

 

[Duarte]

ratchet fan: Here is a book review article about a book on Arab-Muslim slave trade, the number here is 11 to 14 million, most of the men were made eunuchs, and in general the ratio was female heavy in terms of slaverly. The book and author is in the article.

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/03/04/reviews/010304.04hochsct.html

A pretty well researched article by Desmond Berg, who I know nothing about, but the article is well written.

https://sovereignnations.com/2018/04/30/history-arab-slave-trade-africa/


So maybe 20 million is too high, but 10-15 million seems pretty reliable an estimate.

Just as a counterpoint to this number, dear friend PTrapani: Brazil received 3.6 million black slaves between 1500 and 1850.

The Brazilian government's attempt to "whiten" the population marked the 19th century . The government freed African descendants, but did not provide social assistance to former slaves, who were left to fend for themselves. The slave would be replaced by the European immigrant: between 1870 and 1953, about 5.5 million immigrants entered Brazil , among whom there was a majority of Italiansand Portuguese , the government's favorites, as they were white and Latino . ^{[ 61 ]}
The Brazilian government aspired that immigrants should marry mixed-race and black people , to dilute the black race in the Brazilian population. The famous painting "Redenção do Can", made in 1895by Modesto Brocos y Gómez, synthesizes the hovering idea at the time: through miscegenation, Brazilians would become whiter with each generation.
The mass entry of European immigrants in the South and Southeast of Brazil has changed relative to the country's demographics. In a few decades it was found that the population of "black and mixed race" origin was surpassed by the "white" population. Marriage between European and Brazilian immigrants only changed the phenotype . Genetically, the Brazilian population remains mixed. ^{[ 62 ]}
In the censuses, the majority of the Brazilian population continues to be classified as white (49.9%), a considerable portion as brown (43.2%) and a very small number as black (6.3%).


European ancestry predominates in the Brazilian population as a whole, in all regions of Brazil, according to the vast majority of all autosomal studies carried out covering the entire population, representing 62% to 77% of the ancestry of the Brazilian population. ^{[ 63 ] [ 64 ] [ 65 ] [ 66 ] [ 67 ] [ 68 ] [ 69 ]} The predominance of European ancestry among Brazilians is explained by the constant arrival of Portuguese colonists, since 1500, which multiplied rapidly mainly through miscegenationwith indigenous and African women, ^{[ 53 ]} and this colonization decisively influenced the genetic composition of the current Brazilian. ^{[ 37 ]}Between 1872 and 1972, more than 5 million immigrants entered Brazil, 70% from Portugal and Italy and the rest mainly from Spain and Germany. These immigrants settled mainly in the South and Southeast regions and genetic studies show that these are the regions with the greatest European genetics in the country. ^{[ 32 ] [ 37 ]}
The arrival of the Portuguese in the current Brazilian territory led to a reduction in the indigenous population, mainly due to contamination by viruses and bacteria to which the Indians had no immunity. ^{[ 70 ] [ 26 ]} However, since the beginning of colonization, there was miscegenation between Portuguese men and indigenous women, through the practice of co-mingism, an ancient indigenous practice of incorporating strangers into their community, through the delivery of indigenous girls as wifes. ^{[ 26 ]} Nowadays, most Brazilians have some indigenous ancestry, although reduced compared to other countries in Latin America . ^{[ 71 ]}This indigenous ancestry is stronger in the Amazon states of the Northern Region, but is present in all other regions of the country. ^{[ 37 ]}
Approximately 4 million sub-Saharan Africans were brought to Brazil as slaves over the course of three centuries. ^{[ 29 ]} Although the number of slaves brought to Brazil was large, the internal growth of the black population was very slow. In Brazil, the procreation of slaves was not encouraged, as it was cheaper to bring new slaves (low cost in Africa and high elasticity of supply) than to raise slave children until adolescence (expenses with housing, food, clothing, medicine, etc.). ^{[ 72 ]} Furthermore, slaves in Brazil had a very low life expectancy, ^{[ 73 ] [ 53 ]}and even free blacks had comparatively lower demographic growth. ^{[ 74 ]} Currently, African ancestry is present in all Brazilian regions, with regional variations in intensity. African ancestry is lower than European, but higher than indigenous, in most states. ^{[ 37 ]}
Each Brazilian has a unique proportion of Amerindian, European or African ancestors in their genome , since the level of mixing varies from individual to individual much more than from region to region. ^{[ 28 ]}

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Duarte: Yes, that would be the Transatlantic Slave trade. That is a large number as well, but what often happens in the USA is the Transatlantic Slave trade (European) and its impact today in modern USA politics is always front and center. The Arab-Muslim slave trade started 700 years before the European one and the amount of slaves taken was just as significant. However, the modern USA media does not discuss it nor do many Black Americans discuss it since it would force them to confront, or the ones who embraced say Louis Farrakan's Nation of Islam movement, that the religion of Islam was also imposed on them by an invading Arabs who did enslave untold millions of Blacks from SSA.

Of course some of the Blacks in SSA embraced Islam, without forced conversion, I am sure, but for the ones who didn't, well then slavery was possible when you were from a rival tribe. Mansa Musa from Mali who lived 1280 to 1337 (his name means conquorer) is estimated today by American Economist from sources like (Forbes, WSJ, etc) to be one of the richest men in the world to have ever lived and if he were alive toay, he would be among top 5 richest living today. He conqoured some 24 other Tribes in SSA and acquired all the Gold he could get and Arab accounts, not European sources, document that on a trip to Mali he brought like 12-15,000 Blacks from other SSA tribes/ethnic groups to be sold. In a discussion about Slavery, etc, I pointed this out to a guy on Youtube onetime and I never heard back from him. It destroys the narrative the Europeans did not have willing participants in SSA when the transatlantic slave trade happened. More to the point, Mansa Musa is someone that there is an extensive historical sources on from Arab-Muslims who he traded with and visited on pilgrimages to Mecca and it is clear evidence of Blacks in SSA enslaving other "Black tribes in SSA", not their own people, and selling them into slavery.

 

[ratchet_fan]

I think you're dismissing the Berber contribution (not Persian, Levantine or "Byzantine" i.e. Graeco-Roman/Eastern Roman) too fast.

As for SSA there were certainly SSA or heavily SSA-mixed people in some periods of the history of Al-Andalus. The highly sectarian and dogmatic Almoravids conquered much of Northwestern Africa and then Al-Andalus from what is now roughly in Mauritania or even Senegal. Hard to believe the military and political elite of that dynasty had virtually no SSA types. Don't forget the dynasties that ruled both Northwest Africa and Iberia often extended southward very much into lands that have much more SSA admixture. They probably left very little genetic impact in Iberia, most of the migrants to Iberia had already arrived in previous centuries and were mostly Berbers and Arabized Berbers, not even "Arabs proper" or Levantines.

Maybe. But the genes don't show much SSA influence (the samples Palermo posted and modern Iberians). You're probably right that Berbers were the main contributors but some of the contributions to food/architecture does indicate there were West Asian influences as well. Either way even if SSA were present it was in small numbers and I'm not seeing their specific contributions to the food, architecture, and cuisine of the region.

 

[Carlos]

Ancient andalusian NO
Andalusí for Al Andalus

Andalusian for Andalusia

STOP

Andalusians do not feel that we are heirs nor do we feel a continuity of Al Andalus with our region Andalusia


A defeat and a victory


End

I hope it is clear to you

 

[Philjames100]

The Garamantes were a Sahara Desert Berber Tribe in what is Modern Libya, correct? So they would have closer interactions with SSA tribes in what is modern Chad, Sudan and Niger? I would think.

Yeah.

"New light on the development of agriculture and its sociopolitical consequences has recently been thrown by P.J. Munson, who carried out archaeological research in the region of Dhar Tichitt-Walata [southern Mauritania]. Radiocarbon dates indicate a sequence of settlements from about 1100 to 300 BC. […] Bones and carbonized plant remains suggest that people lived on the herding of cattle and goats with some hunting of wild animals and a limited amount of fishing. Wild seeds and fruits were collected, and a few impressions of seeds of the millet Pennisetum on the pottery may indicate a limited incipient cultivation. These were Neolithic sites: there were no indications of the use of metal. […]

The final Neolithic phase, dated between about 600 and 300 BC, was one of very serious disturbances. […] Rock paintings of mounted warriors and tifinar inscriptions, as well as pre-Islamic Libyco-Berber tombs, clearly indicate that the culture of the cultivators was destroyed by the nomad invaders from the north ... horse-riding Lybico-Berber nomads.”

‘Ancient Ghana and Mali’, p.11.

 

[Duarte]

 

[Ygorcs]

Ancient andalusian NO
Andalusí for Al Andalus

Andalusian for Andalusia

STOP

Andalusians do not feel that we are heirs nor do we feel a continuity of Al Andalus with our region Andalusia


A defeat and a victory


End

I hope it is clear to you

Am I sensing some strangely defensive reaction at the fact modern Andalusians may descend from and inherit cultural and genetic traits developed during the time of Al-Andalus before the full completion of the Reconquista, as if that were unexplainably some shame and an outrageous accusation?

 

[bigsnake49]

Duarte: Yes, that would be the Transatlantic Slave trade. That is a large number as well, but what often happens in the USA is the Transatlantic Slave trade (European) and its impact today in modern USA politics is always front and center. The Arab-Muslim slave trade started 700 years before the European one and the amount of slaves taken was just as significant. However, the modern USA media does not discuss it nor do many Black Americans discuss it since it would force them to confront, or the ones who embraced say Louis Farrakan's Nation of Islam movement, that the religion of Islam was also imposed on them by an invading Arabs who did enslave untold millions of Blacks from SSA.

Of course some of the Blacks in SSA embraced Islam, without forced conversion, I am sure, but for the ones who didn't, well then slavery was possible when you were from a rival tribe. Mansa Musa from Mali who lived 1280 to 1337 (his name means conquorer) is estimated today by American Economist from sources like (Forbes, WSJ, etc) to be one of the richest men in the world to have ever lived and if he were alive toay, he would be among top 5 richest living today. He conqoured some 24 other Tribes in SSA and acquired all the Gold he could get and Arab accounts, not European sources, document that on a trip to Mali he brought like 12-15,000 Blacks from other SSA tribes/ethnic groups to be sold. In a discussion about Slavery, etc, I pointed this out to a guy on Youtube onetime and I never heard back from him. It destroys the narrative the Europeans did not have willing participants in SSA when the transatlantic slave trade happened. More to the point, Mansa Musa is someone that there is an extensive historical sources on from Arab-Muslims who he traded with and visited on pilgrimages to Mecca and it is clear evidence of Blacks in SSA enslaving other "Black tribes in SSA", not their own people, and selling them into slavery.

Both Romans and Greeks had slaves and were engaged in enslaving and trading slaves on a pretty massive scale. So were all the other European populations. I don't excuse it or condone it but I acknowledge it.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Both Romans and Greeks had slaves and were engaged in enslaving and trading slaves on a pretty massive scale. So were all the other European populations. I don't excuse it or condone it but I acknowledge it.

No doubt they both did, as did the Persians, Egyptians, the Assyrians, Babylonians, etc. Slavery is as old as humanity. The reality is that it is in the Western Tradition that slavery was ultimately outlawed. Ancient Greece being one of the first to outlaw it, from the Old Testament, Cyrus the Great outlawed it in ancient Persia during his reign. But from medieval times, it is a gradual understanding in the Western Tradition that slavery was unjust. So you kind of furthered the point I was making, slavery did not start with the European Transatlantic slave trade. It was however, that European countries starting in the late 18th century, began to totally outlaw it.

But the main point of the the thread is al-Andalus

 

[Carlos]

Am I sensing some strangely defensive reaction at the fact modern Andalusians may descend from and inherit cultural and genetic traits developed during the time of Al-Andalus before the full completion of the Reconquista, as if that were unexplainably some shame and an outrageous accusation?

You can think what you want and interpret it or misrepresent my words as you like.


I am an Andalusian of parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, great-grandparents and trastarabuelos.

And I don't know they are pulling the term ancient Andalusians and modern Andalusians out of their sleeve.


Al Andalus is one thing and Andalusia another

Al-Ándalus (in classical Arabic: الأندلس) is the name that the Muslims gave to the Iberian peninsula in the Middle Ages

Andalusia is a Spanish autonomous community recognized as a historical nationality by its Statute of Autonomy, 4 made up of the provinces of Almería, Cádiz, Córdoba, Granada, Huelva, Jaén, Málaga and Seville. Its capital is Seville, seat of the Junta de Andalucía. The seat of the Superior Court of Justice of Andalusia is in Granada.

I repeat to you that Andalusí is not the same as Andalusian, solve the situation with your languages.

andalusí
adjetivo
De al-Andalus o relacionado con la España musulmana.

andaluz, andaluza
adjetivo

• 1.
  Relativo a Andalucía, comunidad autónoma española, o a sus habitantes.
  
  2.
• adjetivo · nombre masculino y femenino
  [persona] Que es de Andalucía.
  
  
  Can you interpret this?
  
  
  One thing exists and is alive and the other only exists in history books, it is not so difficult to understand.
  
  
  Our heritage in agriculture and livestock and gastronomy comes from the people of the Christian kingdoms who were settling in the reconquered territories, what can find three monuments of the time, I do not know how many words and any other little thing ok but are they already ours? there is no feeling of continuity, remember, war, reconquest, expulsions, America, please, what are you talking about.

 

[Duarte]

Ancient andalusian NO
Andalusí for Al Andalus

Andalusian for Andalusia

STOP

Andalusians do not feel that we are heirs nor do we feel a continuity of Al Andalus with our region Andalusia


A defeat and a victory


End

I hope it is clear to you

Dear friend @Carlos.
We have no way of choosing our ancestors.
So I say that the importance of Islamic culture in the Iberian Peninsula and in Europe cannot be denied.
I don't have to be happy or sad because I have or don't have autosomal matches with this or that population. I just want the truth. I don't want to deceive myself. It only matters to me to know where I came from. The fact that I don't like a particular culture is no reason for me to deny the importance of this culture in the historical context or say that I have nothing to do with this culture. If I wanted to be deluded I would not do any genetic tests. I would just say: I am Celtic and you cannot prove otherwise.
Think about that and not suffer so, my belived Iberian fellow. Cheers.

 

[Carlos]

Dear friend @Carlos.
We have no way of choosing our ancestors.
So I say that the influence of Islamic culture in the Iberian Peninsula and in Europe cannot be denied.
I don't have to be happy or sad because I have or don't have autosomal matches with this or that population. I just want the truth. I don't want to deceive myself. It only matters to me to know where I came from. The fact that I don't like a particular culture is no reason for me to deny it or say that I have nothing to do with this culture. If I wanted to be deluded I would not do any genetic tests. I would just say: I am Celtic and you cannot prove otherwise.
Think about that and not suffer so, my belived Iberian fellow. Cheers.

You can't hopelessly understand it. Al Andalus existed ok but what may seem to come from that time is dead and buried ok but it is already ours.


Let's see if you understand me, there is no feeling of continuity. Andalus was part of the Muslim world, it is another world. Andalusia is an autonomous community of Spain, there is no continuity, we do not feel that continuity but if everything is documented I do not know why we want to refresh an issue that for us is a gap, a before and after.

This is a real nightmare. When they want to give you an identity that is not yours it is horrible, I do not wish it even on my worst enemy.

The islam of the Iberian peninsula was thrown away, an 800-year war, how can you think of any memory or feeling of belonging to that time?

No, no y no

 

[Deird]

Muslims never occupied much in Southern France, it was more a foothold.
Some muslim graves of that time have nevertheless be found.

 

[Deird]

We have no way of choosing our ancestors.
So I say that the influence of Islamic culture in the Iberian Peninsula and in Europe cannot be denied.

The medieval influence of Islamic culture on Europe is about zero.
And, in fact, exactly the same can be said about the influence of Jewish culture.
Both equate about zero.
The rest is rewriting history.

 

[Duarte]

The medieval influence of Islamic culture on Europe is about zero.
And, in fact, exactly the same can be said about the influence of Jewish culture.
Both equate about zero.
The rest is rewriting history.

Jews and Mozarabs expelled from Portugal were the first settlers to arrive in Brazil. So, for me they are important. I cannot speak of modern Spain or Portugal.

IMO, the importance of Islamic culture in the Iberian Peninsula and in Europe cannot be denied. The fact that I don't like a particular culture is no reason for me to deny the importance of this culture in the historical context or say that I have nothing to do with this culture.
Cheers.

 

[ratchet_fan]

No doubt they both did, as did the Persians, Egyptians, the Assyrians, Babylonians, etc. Slavery is as old as humanity. The reality is that it is in the Western Tradition that slavery was ultimately outlawed. Ancient Greece being one of the first to outlaw it, from the Old Testament, Cyrus the Great outlawed it in ancient Persia during his reign. But from medieval times, it is a gradual understanding in the Western Tradition that slavery was unjust. So you kind of furthered the point I was making, slavery did not start with the European Transatlantic slave trade. It was however, that European countries starting in the late 18th century, began to totally outlaw it.

But the main point of the the thread is al-Andalus

Greece and Persia were way ahead of their times. Too bad they couldn't get along(I mean just come to a truce) and spent so much time fighting each other that Arabs and Turks were able to take advantage of the situation.

 

[ratchet_fan]

The medieval influence of Islamic culture on Europe is about zero.
And, in fact, exactly the same can be said about the influence of Jewish culture.
Both equate about zero.
The rest is rewriting history.

I'm not the biggest fan of that culture but to deny their is influence is wrong. Plenty of goods came through Muslim kingdoms (citrus, spices, dishes such as Turron, arroz con pollo). Not to mention even Gothic architecture borrowed the pointed arch from Islamic architecture.

 

[Carlos]

I'm not the biggest fan of that culture but to deny their is influence is wrong. Plenty of goods came through Muslim kingdoms (citrus, spices, dishes such as Turron, arroz con pollo). Not to mention even Gothic architecture borrowed the pointed arch from Islamic architecture.

Also cite the influences of European culture on the Muslim world.

Out of the topic. I love rice with seafood with what you want but I can't stand meat rice.

We all influence each other

They may feel that the fast food place is theirs while they eat at no time maybe they are thinking about the U.S.A. I visit him once a year or every two years as a teenager I went more and when I ate there I did not think he was of U.S.A. origin. in fact when I eat I can't think.

 

[ratchet_fan]

Also cite the influences of European culture on the Muslim world.

Out of the topic. I love rice with seafood with what you want but I can't stand meat rice.

We all influence each other

They may feel that the fast food place is theirs while they eat at no time maybe they are thinking about the U.S.A. I visit him once a year or every two years as a teenager I went more and when I ate there I did not think he was of U.S.A. origin. in fact when I eat I can't think.

I never said they didn't exist. Of course there was plenty of European influence on the Muslim World. And if we consider Byzantine Anatolia as a part of Europe (I would) then that increases even more. However, saying there were SSA influences is rewriting history.