the origin of al Andalus

I don't think any at all. I think Moors were mostly Berbers with smaller amounts of Arabs. So obviously SSA couldn't have contributed to anything because they weren't present. And the food/architecture/culture the Moors brought to Spain was probably derived in large part from Levantines, Byzantines and Persians. However, Wikipedia has been edited to say there were SSA among them.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#Population

Also the typical afrocentrist crap you find on the internet says they contributed to the culture and armies.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/history/1738293-were-moors-black.html

The problem is most people without any understanding of genetics are likely to believe those afrocentrist tales. I actually have a friend who I consider pretty reasonable arguing that people are just trying to deny SSAs their history. Some genetic studies showing Moors as non SSA would be great to argue with him. I think they were probably less SSA before the Arab slave trade.


The idea that the presence of sub-Saharan Africans in Muslim Spain was important seems quite widespread. I remember that I was surprised by a chapter of the famous TV series "Vikings", when the Vikings, before venturing into the Mediterranean for the first time, made a stopover in southern Spain. And the local population looks surprisingly mulatto ...
 
Yes, Al Andalus had to be multi-ethnic and there must have been obviously black Muslims, I don't know in what number or degree.

I suffer a lot with the extras that North America uses to illustrate episodes of the history of the Iberian Peninsula, especially in relation to the Discovery and Conquest of America, and yet when it illustrates the same for Portugal, they would say that exactly.
 
The idea that the presence of sub-Saharan Africans in Muslim Spain was important seems quite widespread. I remember that I was surprised by a chapter of the famous TV series "Vikings", when the Vikings, before venturing into the Mediterranean for the first time, made a stopover in southern Spain. And the local population looks surprisingly mulatto ...

TV Shows tend to me done with PC ideology. The great thing about DNA is will tell the story. The Olade et al 2019 paper to me hits on point. There are 171 samples from 2000 BC till the reconquest period in the late 15th. So you go through the Phoenicians having sea ports in Iberia, North Africa, Roman periods in North Africa and Iberia when both were part of the empire up to 711 AD when the Muslim invasion occurrred, no SSA ancestry in no samples, you have to get to the period 10th-16th century were 2 of 24 samples show some SSA ancestry.

So with that many samples, I think basic statistical theory when N=30 are greater, central limit theorem kicks in and the distribution should approximate a normal distribution, could be off if the samples are not representative of the broader population, but still should give us good basis to make inferences. What it tells us is that the invaders in Iberia were Berber-Levant ancestry. As the Umayyad Caliphate expanded further South and started caravans with kingdoms in SSA around 1,000 AD, they acquired more slaves from that part of the world and you see that show up in the data in the period 1000-1600 AD.

So regardless, it refutes the American Black Afro-centrist narrative that the "Moors" who invaded Spain in 711 AD were Black SSA. Not true the same way the Verena J. Schuenemann et al 2017 paper "Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods" refuted the ancient Egyptians were Black SSA.
 
Yes, Al Andalus had to be multi-ethnic and there must have been obviously black Muslims, I don't know in what number or degree.

I suffer a lot with the extras that North America uses to illustrate episodes of the history of the Iberian Peninsula, especially in relation to the Discovery and Conquest of America, and yet when it illustrates the same for Portugal, they would say that exactly.

Yes it was multi ethnic but that doesn't mean there were SSAs(other than small numbers as slaves). I think the genetic data shows that the multi ethnic nature consisted primarily of North Africans, West Asians and Southern Europeans.
 
TV Shows tend to me done with PC ideology. The great thing about DNA is will tell the story. The Olade et al 2019 paper to me hits on point. There are 171 samples from 2000 BC till the reconquest period in the late 15th. So you go through the Phoenicians having sea ports in Iberia, North Africa, Roman periods in North Africa and Iberia when both were part of the empire up to 711 AD when the Muslim invasion occurrred, no SSA ancestry in no samples, you have to get to the period 10th-16th century were 2 of 24 samples show some SSA ancestry.

So with that many samples, I think basic statistical theory when N=30 are greater, central limit theorem kicks in and the distribution should approximate a normal distribution, could be off if the samples are not representative of the broader population, but still should give us good basis to make inferences. What it tells us is that the invaders in Iberia were Berber-Levant ancestry. As the Umayyad Caliphate expanded further South and started caravans with kingdoms in SSA around 1,000 AD, they acquired more slaves from that part of the world and you see that show up in the data in the period 1000-1600 AD.

So regardless, it refutes the American Black Afro-centrist narrative that the "Moors" who invaded Spain in 711 AD were Black SSA. Not true the same way the Verena J. Schuenemann et al 2017 paper "Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods" refuted the ancient Egyptians were Black SSA.

Also wrong is this idea that the small number of SSAs had any significant influence on culture. The culture of this period in Spain was a fusion of North African, Arab proper and native European influences.
 
There was no such merger if an apparent coexistence loaded with problems and without flavors for non-dominant groups at the time and even among themselves those who dominated there was no consensus and they were arguing and antagonizing each other all the time a pressure cooker that finally had to explode TtoG
 
IMO, the importance of Islamic culture in the Iberian Peninsula and in Europe cannot be denied.

I repeat. Said "importance of Islamic culture" does not exist.
There's nothing to be denied.


The fact that I don't like a particular culture is no reason for me to deny the importance of this culture in the historical context or say that I have nothing to do with this culture.

Personal feelings are irrelevant.
Historical facts have it that there is just no medieval influence of Islamic culture (especially) in (Western) Europe.
 
There was no such merger if an apparent coexistence loaded with problems and without flavors for non-dominant groups at the time and even among themselves those who dominated there was no consensus and they were arguing and antagonizing each other all the time a pressure cooker that finally had to explode TtoG

Clearly it wasn't a peaceful time. I agree with that.
 
American cinema is undoubtedly the most watched and the most produced in the world if in the coming years for other types of issues they will want to give references to the African-American community many historical films from many parts of the world including Europe will appear with actors and extras blacks. When I studied film script 20 years ago, the professor suggested the importance of female protagonists in movies and we have seen the evolution of the role of even historical female characters with a male role. If they are fantasy films nothing bothers me but when they are historical films I would like them to be as exact as possible in everything possible.
 
I'm not the biggest fan of that culture but to deny their is influence is wrong. Plenty of goods came through Muslim kingdoms (citrus, spices, dishes such as Turron, arroz con pollo). Not to mention even Gothic architecture borrowed the pointed arch from Islamic architecture.

This is really ridiculous.
Why would people need muslims to invent Turron or the pointed arch??
 
American cinema is undoubtedly the most watched and the most produced in the world if in the coming years for other types of issues they will want to give references to the African-American community many historical films from many parts of the world including Europe will appear with actors and extras blacks. When I studied film script 20 years ago, the professor suggested the importance of female protagonists in movies and we have seen the evolution of the role of even historical female characters with a male role. If they are fantasy films nothing bothers me but when they are historical films I would like them to be as exact as possible in everything possible.

I agree 100% with what you wrote. Fantasy films or Science-Fi, should have various ethnic groups represented. One of the great things about the original Star Trek was that it had a multi-ethnic cast on the Enterprise in the 23rd century. Having Michelle Nichols (Black-African American) as Uhura and George Takei as Sulu (American of Asian-Japanese ancestry) in the cast was I think a brilliant stroke of casting. It probably helped inspire thousands of young kids to think they could be part of what was then America's goal and space program to reach the moon, which as we know happened in July of 1969. Game of Thrones having different ethnic groups in it was fine, even though it was largely based on the War of the Roses in England, with some references to ancient Rome and Greece and great kingdoms of the Near East.

However, historical revision by inserting ethnic groups into historical characters that are not accurate is nonsense and reflects a political deconstructionist ideology that is so rampant in the entertainment industry as well as many Liberal arts, Education, Sociology departments across American academia today.
 
I repeat. Said "importance of Islamic culture" does not exist.
There's nothing to be denied.




Personal feelings are irrelevant.
Historical facts have it that there is just no medieval influence of Islamic culture (especially) in (Western) Europe.

Do not approach the issue of Al-Andalus as if it were a problem exclusive to modern Spaniards or modern Andalusians. Remember that Portugal was in the area of ​​influence of the Al-Andalus Culture. On the other hand, Portugal consolidated itself as a national state before Spain. In addition, Berbers and Jews settled in Iberia long before the Visigoths arrived. Seems that the last ones (Visigoths) are the source of your national pride.
 
The medieval influence of Islamic culture on Europe is about zero.
And, in fact, exactly the same can be said about the influence of Jewish culture.
Both equate about zero.
The rest is rewriting history.

What a biased statement to make.

Anti-Semitic and Islamophobic at the same time!
 
Deird has clearly never read actual history books in his entire life.

Maybe wikipedia will be less taxing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe



As for Jews not contributing to European culture, that's perhaps even more absurd. What percentage do you think the Jews constitute of the European nobel prize winners?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_West_European_Jews#Academics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_East_European_Jews


If we're to limit ourselves to the medieval period, see:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Judaism/Medieval-European-Judaism-950-1750

Could anyone be more ignorant?

Any more of this and he's going on a long, long, sabbatical.
 
Are the contributions made to medieval science by Muslims actually a part of 'Islamic culture'? What's Islamic about them exactly?
 
Are the contributions made to medieval science by Muslims actually a part of 'Islamic culture'? What's Islamic about them exactly?

The Islamic culture of the period revered scholarship; they valued and not only saved but translated the treatises of the Greeks and Romans, without which they would have been lost. They also promoted continued experimentation and scientific and engineering development.

The achievements of the individuals of a culture almost always stem from the values and situations made available by that culture.

You could say the same about Renaissance culture in Italy and the Low Countries, or the extraordinary achievements of the U.S. in many spheres.

People don't exist in a vacuum; not even scientists or musicians or artists. They're always a part of their culture even when they think they are going against their culture.

As to your post 58 I disagree with the conclusions of those people. European science (or American), stems from European "Christian" culture and its values, even if it's not recognized.
 

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