The Paleolithic Remnants: a map

A team of archeologist is trying to extract mesolithic DNA from Corsica. Hope it will give us the answer.

Great find, that's perfect if they can get some Y-DNA out of it. I don't have a good prediction for what they would have carried in terms of Y-DNA.
 
Today's update:

  • Switched position of I2c-C and I2c-A as I2c-C has more diversity to the north
  • Moved I2a1*-Tibor to its correct location (I was totally off before)... but still a data deficient clade
  • Moved I2a1b2-A/B to the Continent based on Yorkie's observations about it... but I still want more Continental samples of it to be sure that this change is correct
This has made the Rhine look even more diverse among Paleolithic remnants, and makes I2a1b1a look even more like an outlier among I2a1 subclades.
 
There is one hypothesis that no one is ever willing to consider:
It is that the Cro-magnon got instinct like the Neanderthal before them. Just because they were modern humans doesn't mean that they passed their genes on to us.

Haplogroup I seems to have come to Europe around the Ice Age maximum, no?

So, I wouldn't be surprised if the hunter gatherers of the pre-Ice Age got wiped out by the new comers after the ice age.

Just by looking at the % of R1b in Western Europe today or the % of Bantu in Africa today, shows how the last wave of immigration can really wipe out most of the previous waves.
 
There is one hypothesis that no one is ever willing to consider:
It is that the Cro-magnon got instinct like the Neanderthal before them. Just because they were modern humans doesn't mean that they passed their genes on to us.

Haplogroup I seems to have come to Europe around the Ice Age maximum, no?

So, I wouldn't be surprised if the hunter gatherers of the pre-Ice Age got wiped out by the new comers after the ice age.

Just by looking at the % of R1b in Western Europe today or the % of Bantu in Africa today, shows how the last wave of immigration can really wipe out most of the previous waves.

I'm willing to consider the possibility. I suspect that there were different groups of Paleolithic Europeans who had different Y-DNA haplogroups, with Haplogroup I being the only one known to have survived to today.

Haplogroup I has its center of diversity in Europe, so it probably arose there, and it has an age of 22,000 YBP or so, meaning that it probably arrived there before then (LGM was more like 18,000 YBP). Haplogroup IJ is probably old enough (~38,000 YBP IIRC) to suppose that it was present among the oldest Cro-Magnons, and Haplogroup I is probably a descendant of such an IJ line.

It's difficult for me to imagine how a post-LGM Haplogroup I would work... I suppose it would be multiple migrations (I1*, different types of I2a1*, I2a2*, and pre-I2b/I2c) all into Europe with subsequent extinction in Asia. Or, the STR dating is too old... but I've never heard that criticism of Nordtvedt, only that his estimates are too young. All of this seems simply less clean than assuming that Haplogroup I is probably Cro-Magnon.
 
I am pretty convinced that he is wrong. I2a1a is more diverse in Iberia than in Sardinia, suggesting an expansion the other direction. I2a1b1a has a North-to-South cline, not a West-to-East one like he suggests. And the I2a1c1 direction he suggests is odd... it probably has a link to the Rhine, not so much to Southern France. More likely, these subclades were spread more widely across Europe in 5000BC. See my Paleolithic Remnants map for my idea of what a picture of I subclades prior to their expansions (starting ~4000BC) would look like.

so what is the new code for I2b and how did it only be in denmark and northeast italy
 
so what is the new code for I2b and how did it only be in denmark and northeast italy

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking here. You mean, what is the new name for old I2b? It's I2a2, which you can see in the map as the black (I2a2a) and light blue (I2a2b) dots.
 
Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking here. You mean, what is the new name for old I2b? It's I2a2, which you can see in the map as the black (I2a2a) and light blue (I2a2b) dots.

so, its around Magdeburg and Silesia

why do you have the old ones as well on your map
 
so, its around Magdeburg and Silesia

Broadly, yes, certain subclades originated somewhere near those areas. I'd caution against getting too precise though... think of it as a best-guess.

why do you have the old ones as well on your map

Those aren't old ones, those are new ones. Old I2*-ADR is now I2b. It's a tiny subclade, as Maciamo mentions on his I2 page. Haven't I explained this to you already?
 
Those aren't old ones, those are new ones. Old I2*-ADR is now I2b. It's a tiny subclade, as Maciamo mentions on his I2 page. Haven't I explained this to you already?

yes you have, but the numbers are less than a hand full ( I2*-ADR ( Adriatic)), not worth the effort.

Plus you are going against KN July2011 statement, that he stated that this haplotype is the extreme "frontier" of the basque haplotype. So , I am dumbfounded to see another I branch. Basically looks like morphying
 
yes you have, but the numbers are less than a hand full ( I2*-ADR ( Adriatic)), not worth the effort.

Perhaps not for your purposes, but it is for mine.

Plus you are going against KN July2011 statement, that he stated that this haplotype is the extreme "frontier" of the basque haplotype. So , I am dumbfounded to see another I branch. Basically looks like morphying

I'm confused as to what you're trying to tell me. That I'm off on I2a2? Or on I2b-ADR? Or on the "Basque haplotype" (I assume I2a1a)?
 
Perhaps not for your purposes, but it is for mine.

fair enough, your choice

I'm confused as to what you're trying to tell me. That I'm off on I2a2? Or on I2b-ADR? Or on the "Basque haplotype" (I assume I2a1a)?

If we take KN june2011 comments, he states the basque ends at the "frontier" of Venice. You know or someone else introduce I2b-ADR, for the Venice area. This I2b in TR map you have rejected even though its in the german alps.
You now state that I2a2 , which was I2b is in Magdeburg, Silesian areas , clearly east germanic.
I would like to know, does this I2b-ADR come from the KN "basque" statement, the TR germanic alps or your ( or whoever) east germanic?
If its "your" east germanic, then why was the theory of the jutland to NE italy line discarded recently. ? .........because it did not pursue the rhine route? We cannot have a west to east to Venice and from there south to north.

This handful of I2b-ADR clearly does not deserve a mention unless you are saying it "morphed" from a combination of I strains.

The numbers are so low that I can make a statement and claim its from the 3000 settled dutch/frisian troops brought by John Ernest of Nassau to Venice in 1615-1618. Clearly introducing settlement by military personnel to doctor results and arguements.
Again I state , the numbers are insignificant.
 
[Mod note: Moving this discussion with zanipolo from the Dedicated Haplogroup Pages thread to the Paleolithic Remnants thread...]

I would like to know, does this I2b-ADR come from the KN "basque" statement, the TR germanic alps or your ( or whoever) east germanic?
If its "your" east germanic, then why was the theory of the jutland to NE italy line discarded recently. ? .........because it did not pursue the rhine route? We cannot have a west to east to Venice and from there south to north.

Your understanding of the temporal aspect is a bit off here. I'm only suggesting that our best guess for where I2b-ADR was located 6000 years ago is in NE Italy, based on its modern distribution. That's a long time before things like East Germanic migrations. It is more likely a Cardium Pottery relic or something. We have very few samples, and I'm sort of assuming that the diversity is going to be highest in NE Italy, as we have a sample or two from there IIRC, despite it being a very thinly sampled area... suggesting a higher frequency there which may correspond with higher diversity. I'm definitely willing to revisit I2b-ADR as more comes in.

Keep in mind that new I2b is not closely related to old I2b. I2b-ADR is actually more closely related to my subclade, I2c. Understanding where I2b originated is important for anchoring I2c, but it's a bit too distant to have it inform our understanding of I2a2.

This handful of I2b-ADR clearly does not deserve a mention unless you are saying it "morphed" from a combination of I strains.

I don't know what you mean, "morphed." The whole point of my map was to include all the little clades as well, so that we can better understand the picture 6000 years ago. After that, some subclades got lucky and expanded (I2a1a, I2a1b1a, I1...) and some remained bottlenecked (I2b, I2c-C, I2a1*-Tibor...). The small ones don't really inform our understanding of things like Classical and Medieval migrations, which seems to be your purpose. But they give us an understanding of the origin of their relative clades, and a better picture of Haplogroup I as a whole.

The numbers are so low that I can make a statement and claim its from the 3000 settled dutch/frisian troops brought by John Ernest of Nassau to Venice in 1615-1618. Clearly introducing settlement by military personnel to doctor results and arguements.
Again I state , the numbers are insignificant.

The diversity of I2b-ADR, even though it is a small clade, is too high for that. Although not exceptionally diverse, it beats some much larger clades, including I2c-B and I think I2a-Din-S, which nobody would suggest that about.
 
[Mod note: Moving this discussion with zanipolo from the Dedicated Haplogroup Pages thread to the Paleolithic Remnants thread...]



Your understanding of the temporal aspect is a bit off here. I'm only suggesting that our best guess for where I2b-ADR was located 6000 years ago is in NE Italy, based on its modern distribution. That's a long time before things like East Germanic migrations. It is more likely a Cardium Pottery relic or something. We have very few samples, and I'm sort of assuming that the diversity is going to be highest in NE Italy, as we have a sample or two from there IIRC, despite it being a very thinly sampled area... suggesting a higher frequency there which may correspond with higher diversity. I'm definitely willing to revisit I2b-ADR as more comes in.

Keep in mind that new I2b is not closely related to old I2b. I2b-ADR is actually more closely related to my subclade, I2c. Understanding where I2b originated is important for anchoring I2c, but it's a bit too distant to have it inform our understanding of I2a2.



I don't know what you mean, "morphed." The whole point of my map was to include all the little clades as well, so that we can better understand the picture 6000 years ago. After that, some subclades got lucky and expanded (I2a1a, I2a1b1a, I1...) and some remained bottlenecked (I2b, I2c-C, I2a1*-Tibor...). The small ones don't really inform our understanding of things like Classical and Medieval migrations, which seems to be your purpose. But they give us an understanding of the origin of their relative clades, and a better picture of Haplogroup I as a whole.



The diversity of I2b-ADR, even though it is a small clade, is too high for that. Although not exceptionally diverse, it beats some much larger clades, including I2c-B and I think I2a-Din-S, which nobody would suggest that about.

As per Familytree site, this link from 28 Nov.2011 shows that I2b-ADR has only 11 results.
6 NE italians, 1 slovene, 3 croats, 1 tyrolean
http://sites.google.com/site/bobsdnai2/i2-haplogroup-modals

Could we be looking at an eastern alp Rhaetian people, prior to Gallic invasions
 
[Mod note: Moving this discussion with zanipolo from the Dedicated Haplogroup Pages thread to the Paleolithic Remnants thread...]







/.../ I2b-ADR, even though it is a small clade [and /added/GK] not exceptionally diverse /.../ beats some much larger clades, including I2c-B and I think I2a-Din-S

Has anyone done the WTY with either variant (so far) of I2-Din?
 
So Nordtvedt has recently run TMRCA calculations on I2a1a L277+ L247- and I2a1a L277+ L247+, two recently-ish discovered subclades of I2a1a which will become "I2a1a2*" and "I2a1a2a" once ISOGG updates its tree. Unlike the other I2a1a subclades, these appear to be bottlenecks that didn't really expand with the Neolithic, and are both very rare today. Both fit my definition of a "Paleolithic Remnant" and ought to get put into the map.

The I2a1a2* should be easy, as it is split between Switzerland, the Rhineland, and the Sudetenland, so it can join the rest of the plethora of I2's in that region, with the distinction of being the sole I2a1a there. I2a1a2a will be trickier, as we only know of it in Mexicans who don't know where their families came from. Presumably Spain in the Castilian region... the surnames are Hernandez and Jasso... any opinions?

See also Bernie Cullen.
 
OK, I added the I2a1a2's. I2a1a2a's position is a somewhat informed guess, based on "Jasso" being very Navarre-centered.
 
Well look at the Nordtvedt tree in particular. The TMRCA for I2a1b1 as a whole (both Dinaric and Disles) is ~6000 years, and for I2a1b it is ~13,000 years. So the SNP that defines I2a1b1 (L621) formed probably somewhere between 13,000 and 6,000 years ago. That means that the cluster that would become I2a1b1a probably already had L621 by then.

A requested clarification: Nordtvedt has Disles as I2a1b1 while you (unless I'm mistaken) have it as I2a1b1* on your excellent map. Why the asterisk? Is it because (unlike I2a1b1a's L-147) Disles still has no clearly differentiating SNP? Or is there another reason?
 
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