The Paleolithic Remnants: a map

An interesting update for I2a1b: a weird haplotype of this group, apparently closest to I2a1b2-Isles, has been found in Iraq. The surname is Abd Alghaffaar. Making sense of I2a1b has been challenging enough already, and now this! I'm not ready to say what it means yet. I'll await calculations for it.


And to answer razor:

razor said:
A requested clarification: Nordvedt has Disles as I2a1b1 while you (unless I'm mistaken) have it as I2a1b1* on your excellent map. Why the asterisk? Is it because (unlike I2a1b1a's L-147) Disles still has no clearly differentiating SNP? Or is there another reason?
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That's the reason. I don't know of any I2a1b1*'s that are not Disles.
 
how yes no 2 said:
sparkey, what you think of possibility for Bryges - Brigantes connection?

I explained ideas in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...bian-parallels&p=390599&viewfull=1#post390599

(check also previous few posts for links in mythology....)
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My first thought is that the tribal names are cognates ("high" or "mountain" type derivation), but are not the same tribe. I think we'll need something more compelling to suggest otherwise at this point, like evidence of other haplogroups in common. Probably, the best default assumption about I2a1b is that it diversified in migrations that are not strongly reflected or remembered among modern or even Classical populations.
 
Today's update: I2a1a* is split in two, both around France. I had it wrong, and it is now a better approximation.
 
Thanks sparkey, now it seems to be right.

Here is the tree from where the update comes to ilustrate:
L277L247L707.jpg
 
I have two additional questions about the map. Rereading the Wiki I2 article, I noticed that there seem to be at least three surviving reps. of I2a1b (the ancient Hg from which the Isles groups, as well as Disles and Dinaric evolved). Apparently 2 in Germany and 1 in Poland. Is there a reason why it isn't dotted somewhere?

The second question is more general. Is there a difference between estimated MRCA of an existing clade and estimated time of beginning of that clade? I remember reading this somewhere but have forgotten where. I ask particularly because of the localization of my own clade (I2a1b1a) on the map. It didn't yet exist in 4000BCE so the dot probably stands for an ancestral group. The MRCA has been calculated at ca. 300 BCE and 30 BCE for N and S variants of I2a1b1a. Is the clade initiation age a little older?
 
razor said:
I have two additional questions about the map. Rereading the Wiki I2 article, I noticed that there seem to be at least three surviving reps. of I2a1b (the ancient Hg from which the Isles groups, as well as Disles and Dinaric evolved). Apparently 2 in Germany and 1 in Poland. Is there a reason why it isn't dotted somewhere?
Click to expand...

Wikipedia always seems to have misinformation; they used to claim that I* exists, for example. As for extant I2a1b*, I'm unaware of them. They would tell us a lot about I2a1b as a whole if we confirm them... basically anchoring I2a1b around the northern part of Central Europe, where we haven't seen much diversity of I2a1b yet. They don't seem to be in the I2a Project at FTDNA if they exist, though. If you could provide me with something more concrete (a STR dating estimate relative to the other I2a1b clades is especially important) then I'll consider putting them in.

razor said:
The second question is more general. Is there a difference between estimated MRCA of an existing clade and estimated time of beginning of that clade? I remember reading this somewhere but have forgotten where. I ask particularly because of the localization of my own clade (I2a1b1a) on the map. It didn't yet exist in 4000BCE so the dot probably stands for an ancestral group. The MRCA has been calculated at ca. 300 BCE and 30 BCE for N and S variants of I2a1b1a. Is the clade initiation age a little older?
Click to expand...

The TMRCA is the time to the most recent common ancestor of all currently tested individuals in a clade... for I2a1b1a, 300 BCE or so. What's more interesting for I2a-Din for this map, though, is when it split with Disles... around 4000 BCE. So, they both had distinct ancestors living around this time. Obviously, the I2a-Disles and I2a-Din positions on the map are going to be among the worst approximations for where the ancestors of those clades lived around 4000BCE, and it will be difficult to get any better, because both are very young in terms of TMRCA.
 
Wikipedia's info about the three existing I2a1b's in Germany and Poland is supposedly based on the following article:
Peter Underhill et al., New phylogenetic relationships for Y-chromosome haplogroup I: Reappraising its Phylogeography and Prehistory, in Rethinking the Human Evolution, ed. P. Mellars et al. (2007), pp. 33-42.

That's all I have. I haven't actually read it.
 
Today's update: Added I2a2a-X and I2a2a-XX, both of which are small clades with highest diversity around Germany somewhere so far, with X more western than XX. They were known before, but have only recently been confirmed as ancient via SNP testing. I2a2a-X is now defined by L1227 and L1228, and I2a2a-XX is now defined by L1226.

With I2a2a-X, that line straight down the border between Western Europe and Central Europe now effectively includes a representative from every major I2 branch.
 
sparkey said:
Today's update: Added I2a2a-X and I2a2a-XX, both of which are small clades with highest diversity around Germany somewhere so far, with X more western than XX. They were known before, but have only recently been confirmed as ancient via SNP testing. I2a2a-X is now defined by L1227 and L1228, and I2a2a-XX is now defined by L1226.

With I2a2a-X, that line straight down the border between Western Europe and Central Europe now effectively includes a representative from every major I2 branch.
Click to expand...

check updates 7, 8, 9 and 10 ( march and April 2012)

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/
 
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