The Sea Peoples Were Italic Speakers From Sicily, Sardinia and Mainland Italy?

I'm not competant enough to give an opinion about the linguistic aspect (first importance in the link) even if I find it holds few certain facts, but if this analysis is correct for language, and because it seems speaking about the eastern part of the Island of Creta, it is very interesting because it is only in this part Y-R1b (and its SNP U-152) has some weight in percentage...
YETOS: I don't understand well your links between I-Ean, Troia, Arzawa and Sea People ?(in this last country people were supposed speaking louwitian = I-Ean - but what evident link with Troia? maybe could you give me some details you have at ahnd?

Moesan
with All respect the subject has to do with Arzawa and Hettits,
if Arzawa were IE, that means IE is old, far old than Hettit,
now do you realize if Arzawa spoke IE, how theories change?
Troy was in Arzawa/Assuwa land.
ARZAWA/ASSUWA ARE OLDER THAN HATTI AND HETTIT,
Arzawa can be Arcadia/Arkadia in a z-c or z-k change, we might speak about the same population of eteo-Cypriots and Eteo-cretans etc etc
 
I once thought that Venetian rule of Crete for almost 500 years and Venetian and Genoese presence in many places in Greece, the greater Aegean, and even the Levant during the Medieval period might have provided one source for the "Italian" percentages that used to (I don't know if they still do) show up in some Greeks at 23andme. That may be less true for Genoa's settlements than for those of Venice, as Genoa's footprint was more like that of the European powers in China than like that of the English in Ireland, for example.

Speaking of that, I came across an entire English language book devoted to the period of Venetian rule in Crete. I am going to see if I can get it from my library. I'll also look out for some Italian language treatments. Anyway, the point is that in the online introduction from the book, the author makes some very interesting points about the nature of Venetian rule, and for those with an interest in Ireland there's also some nice material about English control of Ireland and the development of the rule of the Anglo-Irish.
See here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=N...AS8voHgCw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Kingdom of Candia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia

Somewhere, to the best of my recollection, I have read that the Venetians seem to have been around 10,000 in number, an aristocracy and military class, but I can't find the paper right now. I will try to track it down. The book cited above does indicate what I had read before that for quite some time inter-marriage was forbidden. However, the "Italian" or "Latin" and the "Greek" aristocracies seem to have merged after a while, but nothing is mentioned about mass migration and intermarriage with the other classes. I'll have to wait until I read the book cited above for the details.

I don't know where this idea came from that the Venetians all settled in the Lasithi Plateau, or had palaces there or whatever, where most of the U-152 was found. Does anyone have a source for that? The Venetians didn't want anything to do with it.

"The fertile soil of the plateau, due to alluvial run-off from melting snow, has attracted inhabitants since Neolithic times (6000 BC).[3] Minoans and Dorians followed and the plateau has been continuously inhabited since then, except a period that started in 1293 and lasted for over two centuries during the Venetian occupation of Crete. During that time and due to frequent rebellions and strong resistance, villages were demolished, cultivation prohibited, and natives were forced to leave and forbidden to return under a penalty of death. A Venetian manuscript of the thirteenth century describes the troublesome plateau of Lasithi as spina nel cuore (di Venezia) - a thorn in the heart of Venice. Later, in the early 15th century, Venetian rulers allowed refugees from the Greek mainland (eastern Peloponnese) to settle in the plain and cultivate the land again. To ensure good crops, Venetians designed a large system of drainage ditches (linies, Greek: λίνιες) that were constructed between 1514 - 1560 and are still in use. The ditches transfer the water to Honos (Greek: Χώνος), a sinkhole in the west edge of the plateau, that feeds the river Aposelemis.

During the Greek War of Independence in January 1823, Hassan Pasha led an army of Ottoman and Egyptian forces sent by Muhammad Ali that seized the plateau killing most residents who had not fled to the mountains. In May 1867 during the great Cretan revolt, Ottoman and Egyptian forces under the command of Pashas Omar and Ismail Selim marched towards the Lasithi plateau. Their aim was to strike a decisive blow on the revolutionaries who used it as their hideout. After fierce fighting, the outnumbered rebels were defeated and forced to retreat to the slopes of Dikti. Between 21 and 29 of May, many village dwellers were slaughtered or taken slaves, their homes were set ablaze after being looted and livestock and crops were destroyed.[4] The monastery of Kroustalenia that was the seat of the revolutionary committee was also demolished.
During the Axis occupation of Greece in 1941–1944, the peaks surrounding the plateau were used as hideouts by local resistance fighters."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasithi_Plateau

The only other thing I could find is that there was for centuries a Venetian military installation not too far from Lasithi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinalonga

Given that the area was depopulated of most of its inhabitants twice, I don't know what we can deduce other than the fact that there was a founder effect of some kind. I'm not leaning in one direction more than another. This looks like another situation where the answer is going to have to wait for more detailed subclade resolution and aDna. Bottom line, I don't think an Italic speaking Sea Peoples source can be ruled out, which would have implications for other areas in Greece, Anatolia, and the Near East.

SPECULATION ALERT: Dare I hint that perhaps it might account, via the "Philistines" in the Levant, for that "Italian", or perhaps more precisely some of that "European" component in Jews?


If I have time, I want to take a look at the yDna pattern in Crete. If the Venetians had a significant impact on Cretan genetics, then shouldn't we see some of the U-106 and I1 that the Venetians received by way of the Lombard invasions? If anyone has some sources, that would be great.
 
There was a war going on in the Mediterranean Sea area between the Hittites and west Anatolians. If the legend of Anneus is true that Etruscans descended from these western Anatolians after Troy then the western Anatolians would be "Italic speakers". They were the primary people of the Sea Peoples with refugees from Europe and pirates from the Balkans destroying the capitals of the Mitannis and Hittites.
 
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I once thought that Venetian rule of Crete for almost 500 years and Venetian and Genoese presence in many places in Greece, the greater Aegean, and even the Levant during the Medieval period might have provided one source for the "Italian" percentages that used to (I don't know if they still do) show up in some Greeks at 23andme. That may be less true for Genoa's settlements than for those of Venice, as Genoa's footprint was more like that of the European powers in China than like that of the English in Ireland, for example.

Speaking of that, I came across an entire English language book devoted to the period of Venetian rule in Crete. I am going to see if I can get it from my library. I'll also look out for some Italian language treatments. Anyway, the point is that in the online introduction from the book, the author makes some very interesting points about the nature of Venetian rule, and for those with an interest in Ireland there's also some nice material about English control of Ireland and the development of the rule of the Anglo-Irish.
See here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=N...AS8voHgCw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Kingdom of Candia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia

Somewhere, to the best of my recollection, I have read that the Venetians seem to have been around 10,000 in number, an aristocracy and military class, but I can't find the paper right now. I will try to track it down. The book cited above does indicate what I had read before that for quite some time inter-marriage was forbidden. However, the "Italian" or "Latin" and the "Greek" aristocracies seem to have merged after a while, but nothing is mentioned about mass migration and intermarriage with the other classes. I'll have to wait until I read the book cited above for the details.

I don't know where this idea came from that the Venetians all settled in the Lasithi Plateau, or had palaces there or whatever, where most of the U-152 was found. Does anyone have a source for that? The Venetians didn't want anything to do with it.

"The fertile soil of the plateau, due to alluvial run-off from melting snow, has attracted inhabitants since Neolithic times (6000 BC).[3] Minoans and Dorians followed and the plateau has been continuously inhabited since then, except a period that started in 1293 and lasted for over two centuries during the Venetian occupation of Crete. During that time and due to frequent rebellions and strong resistance, villages were demolished, cultivation prohibited, and natives were forced to leave and forbidden to return under a penalty of death. A Venetian manuscript of the thirteenth century describes the troublesome plateau of Lasithi as spina nel cuore (di Venezia) - a thorn in the heart of Venice. Later, in the early 15th century, Venetian rulers allowed refugees from the Greek mainland (eastern Peloponnese) to settle in the plain and cultivate the land again. To ensure good crops, Venetians designed a large system of drainage ditches (linies, Greek: λίνιες) that were constructed between 1514 - 1560 and are still in use. The ditches transfer the water to Honos (Greek: Χώνος), a sinkhole in the west edge of the plateau, that feeds the river Aposelemis.

During the Greek War of Independence in January 1823, Hassan Pasha led an army of Ottoman and Egyptian forces sent by Muhammad Ali that seized the plateau killing most residents who had not fled to the mountains. In May 1867 during the great Cretan revolt, Ottoman and Egyptian forces under the command of Pashas Omar and Ismail Selim marched towards the Lasithi plateau. Their aim was to strike a decisive blow on the revolutionaries who used it as their hideout. After fierce fighting, the outnumbered rebels were defeated and forced to retreat to the slopes of Dikti. Between 21 and 29 of May, many village dwellers were slaughtered or taken slaves, their homes were set ablaze after being looted and livestock and crops were destroyed.[4] The monastery of Kroustalenia that was the seat of the revolutionary committee was also demolished.
During the Axis occupation of Greece in 1941–1944, the peaks surrounding the plateau were used as hideouts by local resistance fighters."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasithi_Plateau

The only other thing I could find is that there was for centuries a Venetian military installation not too far from Lasithi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinalonga

Given that the area was depopulated of most of its inhabitants twice, I don't know what we can deduce other than the fact that there was a founder effect of some kind. I'm not leaning in one direction more than another. This looks like another situation where the answer is going to have to wait for more detailed subclade resolution and aDna. Bottom line, I don't think an Italic speaking Sea Peoples source can be ruled out, which would have implications for other areas in Greece, Anatolia, and the Near East.

SPECULATION ALERT: Dare I hint that perhaps it might account, via the "Philistines" in the Levant, for that "Italian", or perhaps more precisely some of that "European" component in Jews?


If I have time, I want to take a look at the yDna pattern in Crete. If the Venetians had a significant impact on Cretan genetics, then shouldn't we see some of the U-106 and I1 that the Venetians received by way of the Lombard invasions? If anyone has some sources, that would be great.

The dna completed by nat.gen on venetians from 2005 to 2010 shows



of the 54% of R1b ...11% is U106



see cioa paper ..............if I recall the bulk L2
This Early Bronze Age phenomenon may explain why L2 as a percentage of U152 is highest in north-east Italy and makes up a larger amount of U152 outside of Italy.

this found similar
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3053355/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3572090/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24312576

the bulk of these people would be u106
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17712356
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3407130/
 
Youtube does have a few videos on the Sea Peoples.

Secrets of the Aegean apocalyse. It suggests "Arab spring" uprising and peace time creates unemployed soldiers who then revolted. It is a very complex situation. As new research provide new clues we could understand things better maybe.

 
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I deleted the video.
 
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I deleted the video after going through it. Sorry, I posted before seeing it.
 
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I can't see half the screen,so I can't easily access the information, but I'm going to make a wild guess and say this wasn't created by an academic.:grin:

Shouldn't it be obvious by now that any one of any level of education and training, and who knows what obscure motivations can make a youtube video, or post nonsense on anthroboards, for that matter?

This is absurd.

When someone has a genome from one of the Sea Peoples then we'll chat.:)
 
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Understanding Crete and eteo-Cretans

Crete has 6 major teritories,


2 in the Chania (North part, South Part)
1 Rethymno
1 The Mountains
1 Herakleion (Lasithi)
1 soutth (of Herakleion and mountains, Ierapetra Moires Martsalo tymbaki)
1 is total East part ( Setia )

from antique we know that true Cretans were Minoans or ekatopolis (eteo-Cretans)
later Dorians invade the island But Dorians manage to occupy and setlle only West part till the mountains
Roman empire was in charge of island, but not serious colonisation or inhabitation we see, CRETE HAS NO AROMANI population,
Arabs manage to step on island and try to take control of herakleion (Handakas that time, The Venician/Italian Candia is after name Handak, the defensive pit outside castles filled with water)
That time we have a small devastation of the 12 rulling Byzantine families, most of them from Smyrne, and Thrace)
later the Crusades gave Crete to Bonifat de Monferrat which sold it,
The venician occupation in Crete is after all these,
But lets see some remarkable points,
East Crete Setia (ΣΗΤΕΙΑ) is heavily J2a
East Crete was never serious colonized or occupied or inhabited by someone, neither by Ancients Hellenes the IE part of Greeks (Eteo-cretans should have serious J2a percentage)
same about South parts
Mountain Crete show serious deposits of I Hg and R1xyz
which probably can be from Mycenean or Dorian entrance.
West crete shows more Normal distribution of Hgs
now about Crusaders and Venician occupation
if someone travels to these cities, especially Chania which is also called small or 2nd Venice will see the venetian influence, which is obvious
we can find also venetian influence in toponymes around some cities,
but that is limited around some wall defended ports or villages.

another emarkablepooint are the churches, and minorities/nationalities streets,
for example in chania we can see the Catholic cathedral, the Orthodox, and the Jew synagogue, and behind them the 'followers'
by the laws of Venice which even in her islands had economic class and religious criteria were to habbit, it was not posibble, almost forbided to contact each other, even to marry,
in Venice there is a bridge were people suicide due to such cases, and st Giorgio was build due a much later law of annex.
the impossible was to change religion, so the estimated population of crusaders and Venice, and generally 'West Europe' could be counted as religious followers with the statistical mistake of poverty and religion change,
EVEN IN VENICIAN OCCUPATION CRETE WAS RULED BY THE 12 BYZANTINE FAMILIES (Καλλεργη Χορτατζη etc) PAX ALEXI KALLERGI
and the main Venitian familes were Gradonico and Venier (for Gradonico there is an argue of origin, since some consider them as Greek who turned Catholic, to take Venitian citizenship although that is under discuss)MOST Venician left till 1720 and the Turkish effort to occupy the islandin their areas after that time Jews show more population that CatholicsThe Turkish effort, the Egyptian settlers, and the islamization,
that is a violent era
Cretans exile the Cretans who turn to Muslim, and slain all turks and egyptians (Καλημερηδες)
the Muslim Cretans today live in Syria and Turkey
if you want I can show you video's and info's of what happened that time,

now I can not say about Genetic origin of cretan HGs
but the distribution of some is clear of the genetic influence of each colonists from Neolithic era,
some R1b might be from Venitian or Roman occupation, but limited in certain areas, as PAX KALLERGI allowed, since they mostly left from 1650 to 1720
as also the East deposits and the mountain Deposits of certain HGs show the genetical history of the island.
 
But lets see some remarkable points,
East Crete Setia (ΣΗΤΕΙΑ) is heavily J2a
East Crete was never serious colonized or occupied or inhabited by someone, neither by Ancients Hellenes the IE part of Greeks (Eteo-cretans should have serious J2a percentage)
same about South parts

Same as the israeli finds about philistines being originally east creatan people...archeology, pots, jewellery and genetics.
another emarkablepooint are the churches, and minorities/nationalities streets,
for example in chania we can see the Catholic cathedral, the Orthodox, and the Jew synagogue, and behind them the 'followers'
by the laws of Venice which even in her islands had economic class and religious criteria were to habbit, it was not posibble, almost forbided to contact each other, even to marry,
in Venice there is a bridge were people suicide due to such cases, and st Giorgio was build due a much later law of annex.
the impossible was to change religion, so the estimated population of crusaders and Venice, and generally 'West Europe' could be counted as religious followers with the statistical mistake of poverty and religion change,

This is because , if you did change religion , where you classified as a non-believer ( pagan ) and expelled from venetian lands plus venice was secular government, religion played no part in government,
th evenetian government selected the religious representives for each religion, they executed religious leaders with the same rules and the common man and that is also why the greeks, armenian, slavs, germans all had there own religious churches in venice.


EVEN IN VENICIAN OCCUPATION CRETE WAS RULED BY THE 12 BYZANTINE FAMILIES (Καλλεργη Χορτατζη etc) PAX ALEXI KALLERGI
and the main Venitian familes were Gradonico and Venier (for Gradonico there is an argue of origin, since some consider them as Greek who turned Catholic, to take Venitian citizenship although that is under discuss)MOST Venician left till 1720 and the Turkish effort to occupy the islandin their areas after that time Jews show more population that CatholicsThe Turkish effort, the Egyptian settlers, and the islamization,
gradenigo is the name ...............igo is 100% pure venetian surname ending ....mocenigo, barbarigo etc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_Gradenigo

now I can not say about Genetic origin of cretan HGs
but the distribution of some is clear of the genetic influence of each colonists from Neolithic era,
some R1b might be from Venitian or Roman occupation, but limited in certain areas, as PAX KALLERGI allowed, since they mostly left from 1650 to 1720
as also the East deposits and the mountain Deposits of certain HGs show the genetical history of the island.

If they find the R1b-U152 has L2 , then it most likely is the venetian that left their mark in crete ......the other venetian haplogroups are too hard to examine in crete
 
Same as the israeli finds about philistines being originally east creatan people...archeology, pots, jewellery and genetics.

The difference is that Minoans were not Phillistines neither the opposite,
we know the true Minoan cities in Egypt and Syrria,
Phillistines belong to another civilization, which was close to Minoans, but also to 'old' Atheneans which ancient writers say spoke thyrrenian,
All these civilizations are connected

by a discuss i head whit my cretan friends, seems like there were exclusive sea trade roots in ancient world, upon which minoans played the roll of 'traffic police' and phoenicians of 'heavy cargo truckers',
the destruction of minoan navy by volacnoes and tsunami, left world with out trading goods, and opened the road to piracy,
many connect Thyrrenian with island of Thera (Θηρα, Santa Eirina)
Ι even heard about Fallisti in Italy that are connected with Phillistines,
It is difficult to say even today,
but for sure Sea people took advantage of Minoan navy collapse, loss of sea roads merchantise, and by descriptions are connected with Sardinians Sicilians Etruscans, Aegeans, Phillistines, Lycaonians/Carians, Aegeans, West minor Asians, Tyros-Phoenicians
generally that stops with the Dorian descend 911 BC and Greek colonisation (restore of sea merchant roads) plus the build of Hatria and the raise of Etruscan and dissapears with raise of Rome in the West,
so the connectivity with Helladic and Italic space is obvious, while in minor Asia probably has to do with Brygian devastation, either in an empty space, either by push/occupation.
Empty space cause maybe indeed they left to a final way West to Italy, to build a new homeland, as Brutos of Lemnean stele
Push/occupation cause we know Hettit Mycenean Brygian expansions,
It seems that either Hatti, either Arzawa were 'tough guys', and their collapse caused sea paoples, a chain reaction from Hettit entrance to Minor Asia and Aegean volcanoes and earthquakes


Same as the israeli finds about philistines being originally east creatan people...archeology, pots, jewellery and genetics.

If they find the R1b-U152 has L2 , then it most likely is the venetian that left their mark in crete ......the other venetian haplogroups are too hard to examine in crete

and if such HG exist in Palestine/Levant or even south shores of black sea (Homers Enetoi) :unsure:
:hell_boy:

:innocent: :innocent:
 
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The R1b-U152 in crete comes from the 10000 venetians who settled in crete in the 12th century and departed in the early 17th century. The venetians annexed the island from the byzantines.

However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans, suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-century period of Venetian rule of the island.

http://www.academia.edu/2381255/One...n_Agriculture_under_Venetian_and_Ottoman_Rule

It would be useful to get the TMRCA for the R1b-U152 samples from Crete. It should be easy to determine whether they are medieval or Late Bronze Age, as they are 2000 years apart. We also can't rule out that the Italic 'Sea People' brought indigenous (Mesolithic + Neolithic) folks from the southern Italian peninsula with them, namely G2a, J1(xP58), T1a and E-M78 lineages. The problem is that all these lineages would already have been present in the Eastern Mediterranean, so it will be difficult to tell them apart without knowing all the very deep subclades with the TMRCA and try to find which clades could have come from Italy c. 1200 BCE. It may takes years before we get enough full Y-DNA data for both Italy and Greece. Now it's even hard to get data about common subclades in Greece (e.g. R1b-L23, R1b-Z2123, I2a subclades, I1 subclades).
 
It would be useful to get the TMRCA for the R1b-U152 samples from Crete. It should be easy to determine whether they are medieval or Late Bronze Age, as they are 2000 years apart. We also can't rule out that the Italic 'Sea People' brought indigenous (Mesolithic + Neolithic) folks from the southern Italian peninsula with them, namely G2a, J1(xP58), T1a and E-M78 lineages. The problem is that all these lineages would already have been present in the Eastern Mediterranean, so it will be difficult to tell them apart without knowing all the very deep subclades with the TMRCA and try to find which clades could have come from Italy c. 1200 BCE. It may takes years before we get enough full Y-DNA data for both Italy and Greece. Now it's even hard to get data about common subclades in Greece (e.g. R1b-L23, R1b-Z2123, I2a subclades, I1 subclades).

the mtdna for crete

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/full/ncomms2871.html

I will see what I can do for the Y



one of the Ydna below......I cannot open it

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17264870


edit

[url]http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html

[/URL]
 
I copy the object

The island of Crete, credited by some historical scholars as a central crucible of western civilization, has been under continuous archeological investigation since the second half of the nineteenth century. In the present work, the geographic stratification of the contemporary Cretan Y-chromosome gene pool was assessed by high-resolution haplotyping to investigate the potential imprints of past colonization episodes and the population substructure. In addition to analyzing the possible geographic origins of Y-chromosome lineages in relatively accessible areas of the island, this study includes samples from the isolated interior of the Lasithi Plateau--a mountain plain located in eastern Crete. The potential significance of the results from the latter region is underscored by the possibility that this region was used as a Minoan refugium. Comparisons of Y-haplogroup frequencies among three Cretan populations as well as with published data from additional Mediterranean locations revealed significant differences in the frequency distributions of Y-chromosome haplogroups within the island. The most outstanding differences were observed in haplogroups J2 and R1, with the predominance of haplogroup R lineages in the Lasithi Plateau and of haplogroup J lineages in the more accessible regions of the island. Y-STR-based analyses demonstrated the close affinity that R1a1 chromosomes from the Lasithi Plateau shared with those from the Balkans, but not with those from lowland eastern Crete. In contrast, Cretan R1b microsatellite-defined haplotypes displayed more resemblance to those from Northeast Italy than to those from Turkey and the Balkans


That is why I believe that J2a is old enough in Aegean, older than sea people, reaching early copper age, and a major naval travel HG
and Dorians were R1a from the deposits of North Greece an expand that pass through Doris Lokris to S Italy,
about R1b I accept that a % came with Venician occupation, but in limited areas and numbers, around 'fortetsa' (small castle)
Yet we must exclude that this R1b of Venice wasn't before in East mediteranean, or Black sea and travel West,
and also define if came with sea peoples or with venicians, cause such cases can act controversary.
That does not exclude the Venician genetical influence in Crete

an Alternative is the I Hg in mountain crete


correct meif I am wrong
 
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I copy the object

The island of Crete, credited by some historical scholars as a central crucible of western civilization, has been under continuous archeological investigation since the second half of the nineteenth century. In the present work, the geographic stratification of the contemporary Cretan Y-chromosome gene pool was assessed by high-resolution haplotyping to investigate the potential imprints of past colonization episodes and the population substructure. In addition to analyzing the possible geographic origins of Y-chromosome lineages in relatively accessible areas of the island, this study includes samples from the isolated interior of the Lasithi Plateau--a mountain plain located in eastern Crete. The potential significance of the results from the latter region is underscored by the possibility that this region was used as a Minoan refugium. Comparisons of Y-haplogroup frequencies among three Cretan populations as well as with published data from additional Mediterranean locations revealed significant differences in the frequency distributions of Y-chromosome haplogroups within the island. The most outstanding differences were observed in haplogroups J2 and R1, with the predominance of haplogroup R lineages in the Lasithi Plateau and of haplogroup J lineages in the more accessible regions of the island. Y-STR-based analyses demonstrated the close affinity that R1a1 chromosomes from the Lasithi Plateau shared with those from the Balkans, but not with those from lowland eastern Crete. In contrast, Cretan R1b microsatellite-defined haplotypes displayed more resemblance to those from Northeast Italy than to those from Turkey and the Balkans


That is why I believe that J2a is old enough in Aegean, older than sea people, reaching early copper age, and a major naval travel HG
and Dorians were R1a from the deposits of North Greece an expand that pass through Doris Lokris to S Italy,
about R1b I accept that a % came with Venician occupation, but in limited areas and numbers, around 'fortetsa' (small castle)
Yet we must exclude that this R1b of Venice wasn't before in East mediteranean, or Black sea and travel West,
and also define if came with sea peoples or with venicians, cause such cases can act controversary.
That does not exclude the Venician genetical influence in Crete

an Alternative is the I Hg in mountain crete


correct meif I am wrong

In regards to my marker of T1a-M70 group, I see the east cretan has between 7 to 9 % , I also know that the Egyptian T1a is younger than the levant T1a, the Levant is younger than the Syrian T1a and the Syrian is younger than the Kurdish/armenian T1a................how old can this T1a in crete be?
 
In regards to my marker of T1a-M70 group, I see the east cretan has between 7 to 9 % , I also know that the Egyptian T1a is younger than the levant T1a, the Levant is younger than the Syrian T1a and the Syrian is younger than the Kurdish/armenian T1a................how old can this T1a in crete be?




from your knowledge? do we find small deposits of that Venitian R1b elsewhere? outside Venice's occupations land?


and what time do you believe that my G2a3* came to N Greece?
was it before or after your T1a? and how many centuries different?
 
from your knowledge? do we find small deposits of that Venitian R1b elsewhere? outside Venice's occupations land?


and what time do you believe that my G2a3* came to N Greece?
was it before or after your T1a? and how many centuries different?

your G2a3* is not enough info...but I have this from Greece

In adjacent Greece, SNP testing determined that half of eight G samples were G2a3a. The G samples represented 5% of 171 Greek samples. In contrast in nearby Crete, G2a3a was only 20% of the 21 G samples, with G samples representing 11% of 193 island samples.[3] Though treated separately in this study, Crete is part of Greece but with a different settlement history. Farther out in the Mediterranean, in a smaller sample size from Cyprus 4 of 7 G samples have the distinctive 21 value seen overwhelmingly in G2a3a persons.[4]

so you need more info

 
your G2a3* is not enough info...but I have this from Greece

In adjacent Greece, SNP testing determined that half of eight G samples were G2a3a. The G samples represented 5% of 171 Greek samples. In contrast in nearby Crete, G2a3a was only 20% of the 21 G samples, with G samples representing 11% of 193 island samples.[3] Though treated separately in this study, Crete is part of Greece but with a different settlement history. Farther out in the Mediterranean, in a smaller sample size from Cyprus 4 of 7 G samples have the distinctive 21 value seen overwhelmingly in G2a3a persons.[4]

so you need more info


thank you,
but this was kind of 'questioning' answer to your guestion, about T1a in Crete and how old it is.
if it is found in Central Makedonia among the ex- Bottiaeans j2 (cretan settlers) or in Thessalian J2 then came with them,
if it is found in Smyrne with G2a3a then came with them,
so what your statistics say?
and is it the Aithiopean branch? or the steppe one?
 
thank you,
but this was kind of 'questioning' answer to your guestion, about T1a in Crete and how old it is.
if it is found in Central Makedonia among the ex- Bottiaeans j2 (cretan settlers) or in Thessalian J2 then came with them,
if it is found in Smyrne with G2a3a then came with them,
so what your statistics say?
and is it the Aithiopean branch? or the steppe one?

I do not think so, more like Chios or Antalya ( lycia ) with their 13% ..........but more analysis needs to be done..............but I think more north anatolia/steppe one , pontus lands.

the g2a3 is in my opinion , western black sea thraki to go to boetia
 

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