The Sea Peoples Were Italic Speakers From Sicily, Sardinia and Mainland Italy?

[Yetos]

I do not think so, more like Chios or Antalya ( lycia ) with their 13% ..........but more analysis needs to be done..............but I think more north anatolia/steppe one , pontus lands.

the g2a3 is in my opinion , western black sea thraki to go to boetia

Βοιωτια Βοττιαια 2 different areas ?
1 is in south Grece, next to Attica and Theba of Kadmos
2 is in N Greece a known Minoan colonisation,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottiaea

<< ” ἧκον οὖν σὺν Φαλάνθῳ οἱ Παρθενίαι, καὶ ἐδέξαντο αὐτοὺς οἵ τε βάρβαροι καὶ οἱ Κρῆτες οἱ προκατασχόντες τὸν τόπον. τούτους δ᾽ εἶναί φασι τοὺς μετὰ Μίνω πλεύσαντας εἰς Σικελίαν, καὶ μετὰ τὴν ἐκείνου τελευτὴν τὴν ἐν Καμικοῖς παρὰ Κωκάλῳ συμβᾶσαν ἀπάραντας ἐκ Σικελίας κατὰ δὲ τὸν ἀνάπλουν δεῦρο παρωσθέντας, ὧν τινὰς ὕστερον πεζῇ περιελθόντας τὸν Ἀδρίαν μέχρι Μακεδονίας Βοττιαίους προσαγορευθῆναι. Ἰάπυγας δὲ λεχθῆναι πάντας φασὶ μέχρι τῆς Δαυνίας ἀπὸ Ἰάπυγος, ὃν ἐκ Κρήσσης γυναικὸς Δαιδάλῳ γενέσθαι φασὶ καὶ ἡγήσασθαι τῶν Κρητῶν: Τάραντα δ᾽ ὠνόμασαν ἀπὸ ἥρωός τινος τὴν πόλιν.

Strabo. ed. A. Meineke, Geographica. Leipzig: Teubner. 1877.>>

a good question on a linguistic subject
καμικοις, καμινια (lemnos) Val cammunico, Larissa Labyritnh, Lavrio Lassa

more from Strabo,

<<κατ᾽ ἀρχὰς μὲν οὖν ἄνδρες ἦσαν οἱ προφητεύοντες: καὶ τοῦτ᾽ ἴσως καὶ ὁ ποιητὴς ἐμφαίνει: ὑποφήτας γὰρ καλεῖ, ἐν οἷς τάττοιντο κἂν οἱ προφῆται: ὕστερον δ᾽ ἀπεδείχθησαν τρεῖς γραῖαι, ἐπειδὴ καὶ σύνναος τῷ Διὶ προσαπεδείχθη καὶ ἡ Διώνη. Σουίδας μέντοι Θετταλοῖς μυθώδεις λόγους προσχαριζόμενος ἐκεῖθέν τέ φησιν εἶναι τὸ ἱερὸν μετενηνεγμένον ἐκ τῆς περὶ Σκοτοῦσσαν Πελασγίας （ἔστι δ᾽ ἡ Σκοτοῦσσα τῆς Πελασγιώτιδος Θετταλίας）, συνακολουθῆσαί τε γυναῖκας τὰς πλείστας, ὧν ἀπογόνους εἶναι τὰς νῦν [p. 453] προφήτιδας: ἀπὸ δὲ τούτου καὶ Πελασγικὸν Δία κεκλῆσθαι: Κινέας δ᾽ ἔτι μυθωδέστερον.

that toponym exist even today

no need to expand to the greeks Herodotos thoukidides


Chios belong to the Pelasgian pop (Pelasgian Argos) later inhabited by Aeolian Greeks a short time colony of Genouates, almost genocide in 1821, resettled by minor Asian Greeks at 1923
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Massacre_at_Chios

Chios Island was monopoly of Ottoman's merchandise due to the unigue masticha (natural chewing gum) and gave a lot of rich to High gate

 

[MOESAN]

The R1b-U152 in crete comes from the 10000 venetians who settled in crete in the 12th century and departed in the early 17th century. The venetians annexed the island from the byzantines.

However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans, suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-century period of Venetian rule of the island.

http://www.academia.edu/2381255/One...n_Agriculture_under_Venetian_and_Ottoman_Rule

I' ll read your link but the matter was already discussed, and the Y-R1b weight in Creta is only in the eastern quarter of the island and in what is considered as the "

 

[MOESAN]

END:
sorry: "considered as the "archaic" part of the plateau - it's true I don't know what they mean by "archaïc" - this venitian occupation is perhaps not the right explanation??? why only in this small south-eastern part?
wait formore details if possible
good night

 

[Hauteville]

Fascinating theory, many historicians want to link Shardana with ancient Sardinians, Shekelesh with ancient Sicanians and Teres with Etruscans.
Regarding Elymians, the legend of their Trojan exiles origins is nowadays disproved by linguistic studies who link them with Italic.

L?ipotesi di un'affinit? con gli idiomi del gruppo anatolico non trova oggi consensi e all?elimo viene riconosciuta un?italicit? linguistica, pur in assenza di evidenze incontrovertibili che permettano di precisarla ulteriormente. In questa prospettiva, per la Sicilia nord-occidentale l?elimo si configurerebbe come una parlata italica, per quanto di un'italicit? diversa da quella testimoniata nell?Est dell?isola dai documenti provenienti da Montagna di Marzo o dal Mendolito di Adrano.

The hypothesis of an affinity with the idioms of the Anatolian groups do not find consensus and today is recognized at the Elymian an Italic affinity, despite the absence of incontrovertible evidence that allow to specify it further. In this perspective, the northwestern Sicily the elimo would appear as a spoken Italic, as of a different Italic from that witnessed in the East of the island from the documents from Mountain of March or Mendolito Adrano.

http://lila.sns.it/mnamon/index.php?page=Lingua&id=59&PHPSESSID=281003b6fda15f761681ad8c10a9c486

 

[giuseppe rossi]

Indeed Elymians had also strong links with the Celtic speaking Ligurians dating back to the Megalitich-Bell Beaker cultures.

 

[Taranis]

The idea that some of the Sea Peoples were Italic (geographically or linguistically) is in itself fairly uncontroversial. The Sea Peoples were obviously no homogenous ethnic group, but a multitude of peoples, some which were probably Anatolian (speakers of the Luwic languages), some which may have been Greek (including Minoan), some which may have even been Etruscan. The idea that some of them were Italic isn't controversial. However, the idea that the pre-Roman inhabitants of Sardinia, of all places, were Italic, is not only controverial to me but also absurd, for several reasons: On the genetic side, modern Sardinians seem to be genetically speaking a relatively good representative of Neolithic Europeans in Western Europe. At least, I'm under that impression from a comparison between the various Haplogroups found in Neolithic sites in Spain and France, with the modern-day makeup of the Sardinians. Hence, if you have such a great deal of genetic continuity (as opposed to mainland Europe), chances are that you also had a linguistic continuity until the Roman conquest of Sardinia. On the linguistic side there's clear evidence for non-Indo-European languages spoken in pre-Roman Sardinia, which formed a substrate in Sardinian Romance. On Sicily, I might point out that ancient Greek authors thought that the Sicules were indeed recent immigrants from Italy, while the other ethnic groups of pre-Greek Sicily were natives.

 

[Sile]

The idea that some of the Sea Peoples were Italic (geographically or linguistically) is in itself fairly uncontroversial. The Sea Peoples were obviously no homogenous ethnic group, but a multitude of peoples, some which were probably Anatolian (speakers of the Luwic languages), some which may have been Greek (including Minoan), some which may have even been Etruscan. The idea that some of them were Italic isn't controversial. However, the idea that the pre-Roman inhabitants of Sardinia, of all places, were Italic, is not only controverial to me but also absurd, for several reasons: On the genetic side, modern Sardinians seem to be genetically speaking a relatively good representative of Neolithic Europeans in Western Europe. At least, I'm under that impression from a comparison between the various Haplogroups found in Neolithic sites in Spain and France, with the modern-day makeup of the Sardinians. Hence, if you have such a great deal of genetic continuity (as opposed to mainland Europe), chances are that you also had a linguistic continuity until the Roman conquest of Sardinia. On the linguistic side there's clear evidence for non-Indo-European languages spoken in pre-Roman Sardinia, which formed a substrate in Sardinian Romance. On Sicily, I might point out that ancient Greek authors thought that the Sicules were indeed recent immigrants from Italy, while the other ethnic groups of pre-Greek Sicily were natives.

Minoan has some merit, because , a recent documentary I saw , dated from 2013 by Israeli archaeologists working on the philistines, stated, pottery, jewellery, genetics and others of the philistines match perfectly the finds they studied in the eastern part of Minoan Crete

 

[MOESAN]

The idea that some of the Sea Peoples were Italic (geographically or linguistically) is in itself fairly uncontroversial. The Sea Peoples were obviously no homogenous ethnic group, but a multitude of peoples, some which were probably Anatolian (speakers of the Luwic languages), some which may have been Greek (including Minoan), some which may have even been Etruscan. The idea that some of them were Italic isn't controversial. However, the idea that the pre-Roman inhabitants of Sardinia, of all places, were Italic, is not only controverial to me but also absurd, for several reasons: On the genetic side, modern Sardinians seem to be genetically speaking a relatively good representative of Neolithic Europeans in Western Europe. At least, I'm under that impression from a comparison between the various Haplogroups found in Neolithic sites in Spain and France, with the modern-day makeup of the Sardinians. Hence, if you have such a great deal of genetic continuity (as opposed to mainland Europe), chances are that you also had a linguistic continuity until the Roman conquest of Sardinia. On the linguistic side there's clear evidence for non-Indo-European languages spoken in pre-Roman Sardinia, which formed a substrate in Sardinian Romance. On Sicily, I might point out that ancient Greek authors thought that the Sicules were indeed recent immigrants from Italy, while the other ethnic groups of pre-Greek Sicily were natives.

I wait for more precise sibclades and datations (TMRCA) - I agree with Taranis concerning heterogeneity of Sea People, some of them victims and allies according to time, mercenaries for the Egyptians too at some times - Sure Sardinians of these times were not Italic nor I-Ean speakers, for I think - but the question of R-U152 in Eastern Creta and its surprising but possible link to an italic language is still a good question!

 

[Giacomo Pozza]

My hypothesis is that it was a coalition formed by many different European and western Anatolian ethnicities, The Akawasa and Deynen probably came From Mycenan Greece, the Lukka according to most archeologists are to be identidied with the Lycians, the Sherden obviously are the Nuragic Sardinians (They had the same type of armor and weapons of the Sherden, and the Nuragic civilization flourished around the same time of the sea people invasion, also Nuragic pottery dated to the bronze age is found in a site in Cyrpus which was conquered by the sea people, and there is evidence of frequent contacts between Nuragics and near eastern people). Shekelesh could be Sicilians but we don't have substuntial proves for that, and Pelesets were obviously Philistines, so people of European origins which later settled in Palestine, as proved by the Mycean type of pottery that they used and by their language. I have no idea about Weshesh but my guess is that they were from the adriatic sea, probably Villanovian culture people. Tjekers could be Teucrans and I don't know about Teresh, Etruscans weren't really active during that time.

The route taken by the Uluburum relict, classified by many archelogists to be a sea people's relict, touched all these regions, it's a shame that I can't still post the link since this is my second post.

 

[Yetos]

My hypothesis is that it was a coalition formed by many different European and western Anatolian ethnicities, The Akawasa and Deynen probably came From Mycenan Greece, the Lukka according to most archeologists are to be identidied with the Lycians, the Sherden obviously are the Nuragic Sardinians (They had the same type of armor and weapons of the Sherden, and the Nuragic civilization flourished around the same time of the sea people invasion, also Nuragic pottery dated to the bronze age is found in a site in Cyrpus which was conquered by the sea people, and there is evidence of frequent contacts between Nuragics and near eastern people). Shekelesh could be Sicilians but we don't have substuntial proves for that, and Pelesets were obviously Philistines, so people of European origins which later settled in Palestine, as proved by the Mycean type of pottery that they used and by their language. I have no idea about Weshesh but my guess is that they were from the adriatic sea, probably Villanovian culture people. Tjekers could be Teucrans and I don't know about Teresh, Etruscans weren't really active during that time.

The route taken by the Uluburum relict, classified by many archelogists to be a sea people's relict, touched all these regions, it's a shame that I can't still post the link since this is my second post.

*
Sherden can also be the Sardeis the pre-Vrygian asian minor

 

[Yetos]

Minoan has some merit, because , a recent documentary I saw , dated from 2013 by Israeli archaeologists working on the philistines, stated, pottery, jewellery, genetics and others of the philistines match perfectly the finds they studied in the eastern part of Minoan Crete

Minoan not only is connected with Pentapolis, but also with Αβαρις Avaris Egypt and a port in Syrria

and minoans knew Italy well and they probably started colonization

 

[Giacomo Pozza]

*
Sherden can also be the Sardeis the pre-Vrygian asian minor

I don't think so for many reasons:
1)The Sherden first appered in 1350 BC and Sardis didn't exist back then, and even if a small urban core existed, the town was known with a different name before.
2)Sardis is 150 km away from the sea, while Sherden are described by the Egyptians to be sailors and to come from "the midst of the sea", so most likely an island.
3)While there are many nuragic statues and bronze figures resembling Sherden in Sardinia, we have nothing that suggests the presence of Sherden near Sardeis.
Also due to recent discoveries we know that the first nuragic bronze sculptures were produced around the XIIIth century bc, so in a time really close to that of the sea people invasions, furthermore bronze age stele statues closely resembling Sherden can be found in Corsica too.

 

[Yetos]

I don't think so for many reasons:
1)The Sherden first appered in 1350 BC and Sardis didn't exist back then, and even if a small urban core existed, the town was known with a different name before.
2)Sardis is 150 km away from the sea, while Sherden are described by the Egyptians to be sailors and to come from "the midst of the sea", so most likely an island.
3)While there are many nuragic statues and bronze figures resembling Sherden in Sardinia, we have nothing that suggests the presence of Sherden near Sardeis.
Also due to recent discoveries we know that the first nuragic bronze sculptures were produced around the XIIIth century bc, so in a time really close to that of the sea people invasions, furthermore bronze age stele statues closely resembling Sherden can be found in Corsica too.

so do you believe also that the 2 horn helmet, is mark of mediterenean and not of IE?
i ask cause in people's mind, is connected with IE,
but archaiologically is a mark of mediterennean and especially Shardinia


Anyway, Sher Ser Sier in Mediterenean wide glossary means mountains
Sher also means irrigated agriculture Godess Sirris etc
Sher shar in Afroasitic glossary also means palace, big house, temple

 

[Giacomo Pozza]

so do you believe also that the 2 horn helmet, is mark of mediterenean and not of IE?
i ask cause in people's mind, is connected with IE,
but archaiologically is a mark of mediterennean and especially Shardinia

What do you mean by IE?

During the bronze age and early iron age depictions of bronze helmets are found mostly in Sardinia (and Corsica too), there are some other scarce depictions found in mediterranean area, like the two bronze figures in Cyprus, one mycenean jar and something in Syria, but those are much less and do not represent the typical militar and ceremoniall outfit of the warriors, while those in Sardinia are so many that it is clear that they represent the typical militar and ceremonial outfits of the time.

Not only the nuragics generally wore a horned helmet in battle, but the bronze figures and some statues have the typical round shield, skirt and type of armor that the Sherden wore. Also triangular swords identical to those of the Sherden were found in Sardinia dating back to 1650 BC, bulls, deers and generally horned animals were the most sacred beasts to the Nuragics and appear very often in Nuragic objects (bronze figures, protomes, pottery, etc...).

 

[Yetos]

What do you mean by IE?

During the bronze age and early iron age depictions of bronze helmets are found mostly in Sardinia (and Corsica too), there are some other scarce depictions found in mediterranean area, like the two bronze figures in Cyprus, one mycenean jar and something in Syria, but those are much less and do not represent the typical militar and ceremoniall outfit of the warriors, while those in Sardinia are so many that it is clear that they represent the typical militar and ceremonial outfits of the time.

Not only the nuragics generally wore a horned helmet in battle, but the bronze figures and some statues have the typical round shield, skirt and type of armor that the Sherden wore. Also triangular swords identical to those of the Sherden were found in Sardinia dating back to 1650 BC, bulls, deers and generally horned animals were the most sacred beasts to the Nuragics and appear very often in Nuragic objects (bronze figures, protomes, pottery, etc...).

I mean that this helmet

was not a mark of IE culture that time, as some connected with the much later

 

[Giacomo Pozza]

yeah Vikings did not wear horned helmets in battle, the horned helmets that were found and were believed to be viking helmets were actually made during the Nordic bronze age so of course those did not belong to the medieval vikings, and it appears that those contained holes to hold feathers too.

 

[Regio X]

The R1b-U152 in crete comes from the 10000 venetians who settled in crete in the 12th century and departed in the early 17th century. The venetians annexed the island from the byzantines.

However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans, suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-century period of Venetian rule of the island.

http://www.academia.edu/2381255/One...n_Agriculture_under_Venetian_and_Ottoman_Rule

Interesting! The "alpine" L42 (bellow L497) was found in some Ionian Islands (such Corfu and Kythira) and in Montenegro coast. This is probably related to the Venetian domination too.

 

[Maleth]

yeah Vikings did not wear horned helmets in battle, the horned helmets that were found and were believed to be viking helmets were actually made during the Nordic bronze age so of course those did not belong to the medieval vikings, and it appears that those contained holes to hold feathers too.

You are correct. The popular association with Viking horned helmets probably came with Karl Doepler who was a designer for opera costumes that took part in a festival in Germany in the mid 1800's

 

[Giacomo Pozza]

A bronze mask found in Sardinia belonging to the Nuragic civilization compared to a bronze mask found in the near east and classified as a sea peoples' mask: https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=e1a5133bbf6fbbe1bc0306f54a275989&oe=561D051F

Another picture that shows cultural links between the bronze age Sardinians and the mycenean/agean people: https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=a6c9947f2d2b87e1457bdd2e453ec1ab&oe=5633EC3E
This type of helmet is also found in some Nuragic bronze sculptures.

Philistine like helmet depicted in a bronze Nuragic sculpture: https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=9b12fc2dcf285152678188456ccf164b&oe=5633A246

Distribution of the copper oxhide ingots in the mediterranean, typical of the bronze age and of Cyprus, as you can see an enormous quantity of these was found in Sardinia, showing how the island was at the centre of the trade network of the bronze age: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8FaqOi3Z-c8/UlJk8ghgJQI/AAAAAAAADQg/u2CJRBUzs6Y/s1600/Immagine.png