Thracians spoke Balto Slavic language

I do not remember exactly what I wrote there,but I said that Slavs,as this name appeared after Gothic migrations.
And that is a theory,that says that Slavs name comes from Slava which means fame,in Slavic languages (the mainstream theory is that their name comes from people speaking same language).
Is known that Sarmatians for example were main allies of Goths.

Slavs call themselves Slovane (approximation for all slavic), meaning all people who understand Slavic language. It also sounds close to word "slava" fame, but I think it is purely coincidental.
It makes sense, but makes even more sense when coupled with slavic name for Germans.
Germanic people are called with an exonym "Nemci", meaning people who don't speak (a slavic language).
So we have name for people speaking same language and people who don't. Isn't it an elegant explanation?
 
Slavs call themselves Slovane (approximation for all slavic), meaning all people who understand Slavic language. It also sounds close to word "slava" fame, but I think it is purely coincidental.
It makes sense, but makes even more sense when coupled with slavic name for Germans.
Germanic people are called with an exonym "Nemci", meaning people who don't speak (a slavic language).
So we have name for people speaking same language and people who don't. Isn't it an elegant explanation?

Well there is not known if ever existed a proto-Slavic language,what is recorded is Old East Slavic,from which Russian,Ukrainian and Belarussian split and also Old Church Slavonic,which was quite closed to South Slavic.
I did not heard about an old West Slavic language.
Thing is,if they were speaking same language,the term Slovane appeared around 600 AD,or so,when it is clear that already existed Old Church Slavonic and Old East Slavic,which were not mutually intelligible.
Why no one mentions Slavs earlier than 600 AD,but it mention on those lands Sarmatians and Scythians?
Were did they come from?
Or maybe Slavs as people speaking closed languages formed only after Goths migrated and Sarmatians remained to rule some of the lands that Goths ruled earlier.
 
Why no one mentions Slavs earlier than 600 AD,but it mention on those lands Sarmatians and Scythians?
Were did they come from?
Or maybe Slavs as people speaking closed languages formed only after Goths migrated and Sarmatians remained to rule some of the lands that Goths ruled earlier.
It is unlikely because Scythians and Sarmatians belonged to Iranic language family. On sideline Baltic language is more related to Iranic than Slavic to Iranic.
 
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Well there is not known if ever existed a proto-Slavic language,what is recorded is Old East Slavic,from which Russian,Ukrainian and Belarussian split and also Old Church Slavonic,which was quite closed to South Slavic.
I did not heard about an old West Slavic language.
Thing is,if they were speaking same language,the term Slovane appeared around 600 AD,or so,when it is clear that already existed Old Church Slavonic and Old East Slavic,which were not mutually intelligible.
Why no one mentions Slavs earlier than 600 AD,but it mention on those lands Sarmatians and Scythians?
Were did they come from?
Or maybe Slavs as people speaking closed languages formed only after Goths migrated and Sarmatians remained to rule some of the lands that Goths ruled earlier.

Cimmerians lived in the lands of Sarmatia prior to Samatians arriving from Kazahstan. They, the cimmerains left their southern Ukraine homeland around 700BC, clearly these people where speaking some language and it was not Iranic nor proto-slavic.

The Goths put an end to Samatians when the Goths arrived on the black sea, they where put to the sword unless they yielded. Then the Goths stayed there for over 200 hundred years, clearly Samatians did not exist as a tribe anymore but some as part of a new gothic race.
 
Cimmerians lived in the lands of Sarmatia prior to Samatians arriving from Kazahstan. They, the cimmerains left their southern Ukraine homeland around 700BC, clearly these people where speaking some language and it was not Iranic nor proto-slavic.

The Goths put an end to Samatians when the Goths arrived on the black sea, they where put to the sword unless they yielded. Then the Goths stayed there for over 200 hundred years, clearly Samatians did not exist as a tribe anymore but some as part of a new gothic race.

A whole population disappears only in the books of history,this is what a great Romanian historian said.How can you say that Sarmatians disappeared from there,when is quite known that there is plenty of J2 in Southern Russia and Ukraine,from where did you think this come?
Aliens?
What branch of R1A can be clearly associated with Slavic speakers?
If Slavic as language and Slavs as people existed before the year 600 why no historian mention Slavs?Baltic people are mentioned,Germans are mentioned,Finnic people are mentioned,Celtic,Romance people,but not Slavs.
 
Cimmerians lived in the lands of Sarmatia prior to Samatians arriving from Kazahstan. They, the cimmerains left their southern Ukraine homeland around 700BC, clearly these people where speaking some language and it was not Iranic nor proto-slavic.

The Goths put an end to Samatians when the Goths arrived on the black sea, they where put to the sword unless they yielded. Then the Goths stayed there for over 200 hundred years, clearly Samatians did not exist as a tribe anymore but some as part of a new gothic race.

The Sarmatians did suffer a setback during the Migration Period but eventually re-emerged as the Ossetians, who are very much still here.
 
A whole population disappears only in the books of history,this is what a great Romanian historian said.How can you say that Sarmatians disappeared from there,when is quite known that there is plenty of J2 in Southern Russia and Ukraine,from where did you think this come?
Aliens?
What branch of R1A can be clearly associated with Slavic speakers?
If Slavic as language and Slavs as people existed before the year 600 why no historian mention Slavs?Baltic people are mentioned,Germans are mentioned,Finnic people are mentioned,Celtic,Romance people,but not Slavs.
We don't know if there were not mentioned. Obviously they were not mentioned using name Slovene, Sclavene as per their own name. They could have been mentioned by exonim name like Veneti. (close to German Wend for "foreigner"?). In short we don't know if they were mentioned or not.
 
I have seen that Ossetians are speaking an Indo-Iranic language,so is quite usual for people to make the link between Sarmatians&Scythians with Ossetians.
But the area in which they are residing is quite far away,from the area where they were mentioned before Slavs appeared,in the writings of the historians.
I do not think Veneti are some Slavic people,but the people who gave the name of the region Veneto from Italy,some kind of Celtic people,or so.
EDIT:
Just saw now,that are 3 old people called Veneti or closed,some of them being Celtic,other Italic and other residing in some current land of Russia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Roman_Empire_125.png
 
"Is not a good thing to try find cognates between current Slavic languages and Thracian,try better to find a book with Proto-Slavic
(is said Old Church Slavonic is closest to Proto-Slavic),or Old Russian and search cognates there."

The Church Slavonic language was artificially created from all Slavic languages and dialects - as a parasitical language, to spread the Christianity and to destroy the old Slavic faith. If you compare Freising manuscripts in old Slovene which was probably written in 9th century and was "inspired" by the older language it has almost nothing in common with so called "1. Slavic language", Christian Church Slavic language. All other documents in Slavic which were not part of Christian cults, religion, were intentionally destroyed or rewritten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising_manuscripts
 
"Is not a good thing to try find cognates between current Slavic languages and Thracian,try better to find a book with Proto-Slavic
(is said Old Church Slavonic is closest to Proto-Slavic),or Old Russian and search cognates there."

The Church Slavonic language was artificially created from all Slavic languages and dialects - as a parasitical language, to spread the Christianity and to destroy the old Slavic faith. If you compare Freising manuscripts in old Slovene which was probably written in 9th century and was "inspired" by the older language it has almost nothing in common with so called "1. Slavic language", Christian Church Slavic language. All other documents in Slavic which were not part of Christian cults, religion, were intentionally destroyed or rewritten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising_manuscripts
So, you mean that Church invented an artificial language, which nobody could understand, and used this new weird language to teach new faith? This makes sens! (y)
 
I have seen that Ossetians are speaking an Indo-Iranic language,so is quite usual for people to make the link between Sarmatians&Scythians with Ossetians.
But the area in which they are residing is quite far away,from the area where they were mentioned before Slavs appeared,in the writings of the historians.
I do not think Veneti are some Slavic people,but the people who gave the name of the region Veneto from Italy,some kind of Celtic people,or so.
EDIT:
Just saw now,that are 3 old people called Veneti or closed,some of them being Celtic,other Italic and other residing in some current land of Russia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Roman_Empire_125.png

That map is old and discussed in many forums............it represents the modern Lithuanians/Latvians and is said to be used for the bases of "Lithuanian" components in autosomal calculations.
one that come to mind is MDLP and other ............@$%^#! ...forgot
I agree that the article could use a title move, although I am not sure of an ideal title. "Venedes" has been used in English, but all references on Google Books are from the 19th century. "Northern Veneti" was also used in the 19th century. Schenker uses "Vistula Veneti". Olessi 13:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
True. There does not seem to be a single prevalent term, so a compromise solution has to be chosen. --Jalen 14:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Schenker actually uses Vistula/Baltic Veneti as the introductory term. Personally, I would vote against choosing Baltic Veneti for, as I said, it might sound ambiguous as it could imply relation to Baltic peoples (e.g. the ancestors of modern Lithuanians, Latvians etc.). Vistula Veneti seems better and more precise as regards the original habitat of this ancient IE ethnos, t.i. the Vistula river basin. --Jalen 19:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

So they represent ANCIENT baltic people
 
If you compare Freising manuscripts in old Slovene which was probably written in 9th century and was "inspired" by the older language it has almost nothing in common with so called "1. Slavic language", Christian Church Slavic language. All other documents in Slavic which were not part of Christian cults, religion, were intentionally destroyed or rewritten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising_manuscripts

Is there any transliteration of these scripts with a modern version in parallel?


So, you mean that Church invented an artificial language, which nobody could understand, and used this new weird language to teach new faith? This makes sens! (y)

Was there a difference with Latin and Catholics? Who spoke Latin in western Europe 11th century?
 
Is there any transliteration of these scripts with a modern version in parallel?




Was there a difference with Latin and Catholics? Who spoke Latin in western Europe 11th century?

the official language of the nobility/leaders from the end of the Roman period was latin until the 1648 peace of westphalia where it was changed to french ( they whined bitterly) as the "international" language, that basically went on to around after WWII when English took over.


lawyers, doctors, pharmacists and other professions still speak latin know, especially if discussing something in public houses.
 
Yeah, I know that, I was thinking about ordinary people.
 
Was there a difference with Latin and Catholics? Who spoke Latin in western Europe 11th century?
Yes it was because everybody could speak Latin in Imperium Romanum. Official and real language of Imperium was used as Christian official language, and Greek in Byzantium.
Now you have Slavs to christian 500 years later and they don't speak Latin or Greek. So lets invent third language and call it "Old Church Slavonic", so Slavs will think it is theirs, lol, and teach them Christianity with it. Way to go!!! I hope you get how ridiculous this sounds, right?
The only logical explanation is that Slave spoke Old Church Slavonic and were taught Christianity in it instead of Latin or Greek.
 
Yes it was because everybody could speak Latin in Imperium Romanum. Official and real language of Imperium was used as Christian official language, and Greek in Byzantium.
Now you have Slavs to christian 500 years later and they don't speak Latin or Greek. So lets invent third language and call it "Old Church Slavonic", so Slavs will think it is theirs, lol, and teach them Christianity with it. Way to go!!! I hope you get how ridiculous this sounds, right?
The only logical explanation is that Slave spoke Old Church Slavonic and were taught Christianity in it instead of Latin or Greek.
Why is it ridiculous? It is what Luther did with his translation of the Bible, which ultimately served to establish modern High German, strongly based on Eastern Central German (the dialect of Luther's home region), and relegated Bavarian, Alemannic, West Frankish and Low German (Low Saxon) to "popular dialects". It is also what several Croatian and Serbian linguists (most notably Vuk Stefanović Karadžić) did when they in the mid-19th century standardised the Serbo-Croatian language.

Of course, you don't invent a language from scratch, but base it on an existing local dialect, with some adjustment geared at accommodating other known dialects (Shtokavian in the case of the Serbo-Croatian standardisation). Such work being initially done by theologians (Cyril and Method for "Old Church Slavonic", Jan Hus in the case of 15th century Bohemian), later by trained linguists implies that a lot of grammatical complexity may be preserved, even though it may long have got lost in popular dialects. An example is the re-introduction of the 4-case noun flexion system into High German, even though it already had been mostly lost in Low German (which essentially had been simplified similar to English), and at least partly lost (disappearance of the Dative) in colloquial East-Middle German.

Once such a "Church standard" has been introduced, it is promoted via church sermon and monastery schools, the latter typically serving for educating the local elite including court officials and scribes. The spread of literacy in the 18th century, and the emergence of newspapers and public schools during the 19th century provided impetus for a second wave of standardisation via grammars and dictionaries - a process that also took place in most (all?) slavophone countries. The new standard is effectively and quickly spread via schools and media. Germanisation of wide parts of Schleswig, the area around the German-Danish border, during the mid-19th century, e.g. required less than thirty years. A similar and equally fast process can be observed with respect to the spread of French in Alsace after WW II.

As such, I think it is rather daring to try to compare modern Serbo-Croatian, which has at least two times been standardized, to 2000-year old Dacian. The same, btw., applies to Romanian - here, the 1860 switch from Cyrillic to Latin alphabet at the same time replaced thousands of Slavic words with Latin- and French-based neologisms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_School
 
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Why is it ridiculous? It is what Luther did with his translation of the Bible, which ultimately served to establish modern High German, strongly based on Eastern Central German (the dialect of Luther's home region), and relegated Bavarian, Alemannic, West Frankish and Low German (Low Saxon) to "popular dialects". It is also what several Croatian and Serbian linguists (most notably Vuk Stefanović Karadžić) did when they in the mid-19th century standardised the Serbo-Croatian language.

Of course, you don't invent a language from scratch, but base it on an existing local dialect, with some adjustment geared at accommodating other known dialects (Shtokavian in the case of the Serbo-Croatian standardisation). Such work being initially done by theologians (Cyril and Method for "Old Church Slavonic", Jan Hus in the case of 15th century Bohemian), later by trained linguists implies that a lot of grammatical complexity may be preserved, even though it may long have got lost in popular dialects. An example is the re-introduction of the 4-case noun flexion system into High German, even though it already had been mostly lost in Low German (which essentially had been simplified similar to English), and at least partly lost (disappearance of the Dative) in colloquial East-Middle German.

Once such a "Church standard" has been introduced, it is promoted via church sermon and monastery schools, the latter typically serving for educating the local elite including court officials and scribes. The spread of literacy in the 18th century, and the emergence of newspapers and public schools during the 19th century provided impetus for a second wave of standardisation via grammars and dictionaries - a process that also took place in most (all?) slavophone countries. The new standard is effectively and quickly spread via schools and media. Germanisation of wide parts of Schleswig, the area around the German-Danish border, during the mid-19th century, e.g. required less than thirty years. A similar and equally fast process can be observed with respect to the spread of French in Alsace after WW II.

As such, I think it is rather daring to try to compare modern Serbo-Croatian, which has at least two times been standardized, to 2000-year old Dacian. The same, btw., applies to Romanian - here, the 1860 switch from Cyrillic to Latin alphabet at the same time replaced thousands of Slavic words with Latin- and French-based neologisms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_School

one thing we can agree on.....there are no languages in the world...only dialects
 
Why is it ridiculous? It is what Luther did with his translation of the Bible, which ultimately served to establish modern High German, strongly based on Eastern Central German (the dialect of Luther's home region), and relegated Bavarian, Alemannic, West Frankish and Low German (Low Saxon) to "popular dialects"
That's the point. The Luther bible was based on a real and in use language. Later it became a standard through out Germany. I was responding to the people who claim that Old Church Slavonic was an artificial language which never existed before.
 
I was responding to the people who claim that Old Church Slavonic was an artificial language which never existed before.
No one said that. I deliberately underlined the term nobody in#133, so that you would pay attention to it. @Vedun strictly said "The Church Slavonic language was artificially created from all Slavic languages and dialects" in #130.




I find @FrankN's explanation/theory very good. My opinion about Vedun's thesis is that it's plausible that Old Church Slavonic may have been artificial language created by the missionaries, but we would need some evidence to confirm this.

As such, I think it is rather daring to try to compare modern Serbo-Croatian, which has at least two times been standardized, to 2000-year old Dacian. The same, btw., applies to Romanian - here, the 1860 switch from Cyrillic to Latin alphabet at the same time replaced thousands of Slavic words with Latin- and French-based neologisms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_School

If we had more Dacian we would, but sadly there is not much to compare :/
 

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