To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Archetype0ne]

Why apologize? That he's being dense on purpose? The Avars were literally called the Panonian Avars. That was their name. All these samples from Panonia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars

They have nothing to do with Albanians other than absorbing remnants of Central Europeans who are distantly related to Balkanites. The authors mention that.

I agree with you on that view. I am saying the arguments are too emotional right now and really do not help keep the conversation on topic.

Now on the paper.

I find it interesting that V13 only shows up in Middle and Late Avar period in the region, while showing Southern European affinity. As Riverman pointed out all the V13 samples are to the east of Budapest. I wonder what created the conditions, in otherwise tough times under tough rulers for V13 to expand in Pannonia, in such numbers and diversity, even within a short time gaining elite status as this paper points out. Seems either Avars were not as brutal as thought, or they had some symbiotic relation with the local populations that allowed both to thrive. For reference after the Franks it seems V13 today is not at the levels of the Avar and Hungarian conqueror period.

Edit: From the little extra reading I did, it seems Avars and post Roman urban fort dwellers had a good relation, in exchange for goods they were allowed to prosper.
Maybe metal/gold mining and smithing played an important role that led V13 and L283 to gain elite status within the Avar / Hungarian conquerors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszt...xW2LpADH5le4aLGO-rzpjQYexWoILrD_kNlJuJ5WqeQeo

 

[Johane Derite]

I would ask for us to put this behind. I have to apologize to Derite for my offensive rhetoric, despite being offended myself I should have been less emotional and held my tongue.

Back at you.

 

[Hawk]

Interesting. Thanks.
I lean more towards Dardania given not only the haplogroups present, but also the ratio of them.

Although I am starting to believe that E-V13 is a Southern European marker. The Scythian E-V13 had an ancient Greek like autosomal makeup, it was found along z2103 and had closest affinity to today Albanians, Greeks and Italians. Today Albanians and Northern Greeks are almost indistinguishable autosomaly. While logkas samples also prove that such admixture was present as early as BA in Northern Greece. Furthermore from the Hun and Avar paper it seems that the V13 samples fall on the southern European cline:

"EU_Core1 clusters with Langobards from Hungary , Iron Age, Imperial and Medieval individuals from Italy, Minoans and Mycenaeans from Greece. EU_Core2, 3 and 4 cluster among others with Langobards7 and Bronze Age samples from Hungary, the Czech Republic and Germany, while EU_Core5 clusters with Hungarian Scythians.

In the SZK, ALT, KK1, OBT, SZKT, HH and SZM cemeteries most males belonged to the E1b1b1a1b1 (E-V13) Hg, which is most prevalent in the Balkan44, and accordingly many of the samples from these cemeteries fell in EU_Core1, or its vicinity, with typical Southern European genomes.

EU_Core1: This group is located at the southernmost part of the EU-cline, and their PC2 position overlaps with modern Greeks, Albanians, Italians and European Neolithic-Chalcolithic samples. This group is best represented by samples; ALT-224, KK1-251, KK1-252, SZK-83, SZK-180 and SZOD376 (Extended Data Fig.1b), all of them from the Avar period, except for the 11th century commoner SZOD-376. On PC50 clustering EU_Core1 clusters together with Langobards from Hungary, Iron Age, Imperial and Medieval individuals from Italy, as well as with Minoans and Mycenaeans from Greece13 (Table S3), indicating an ancient southern European genetic affinity of this group."

This makes me think that there is a high chance Ancient Greeks could have had E-V13 yet to be found in auDNA, alongside the already found J2a and G2a. Also, this really opens the door for Trojan Dardanians to be an offshoot of Balkan Dardanians, and for the 1:1 correspondences that happen between ancient people in the Balkans and Asia Minor that Derite was earlier arguing.

This could further explain how Lazaridis in the Minoan and Mycenean paper found the highest affinity to modern populations included Albanians, despite what we know from unipaternal markers L283 being so far found in Northern ancient peoples. What could explain this is either z2103, or V13 or more likely both.

That's a possibility as well, who knows. Maybe they initially lived in Northern Greece/Macedonia and during Late Bronze Age turmoil moved up north following rivers. I don't know. But material culture indicates completely the opposite. It was Carpathian-Danubian Urnfielders moving down south during Late Bronze Age. During ancient times there were South European-like rich people living in Carpathian/Pannonian basin.

 

[enter_tain]

At this point we have to consider the non-zero possibility that a lot/most EV-13 may be Slavic in origin. That would explain it's ubiquity in modern day Eastern Europeans. Tying to a random group of people like Thracians is utter non-sense as this is a Pan-European Y-DNA.

Most of Central Europe has a lot of EV-13 and it was quite common in Slavs. Now these Hungarian dudes have EV-13 just like the Czech samples. Scythians (who were absorbed by Slavs) also had this.

 

[Archetype0ne]

At this point we have to consider the non-zero possibility that a lot/most EV-13 may be Slavic in origin. That would explain it's ubiquity in modern day Eastern Europeans. Tying to a random group of people like Thracians is utter non-sense as this is a Pan-European Y-DNA.

Most of Central Europe has a lot of EV-13 and it was quite common in Slavs. Now these Hungarian dudes have EV-13 just like the Czech samples. Scythians (who were absorbed by Slavs) also had this.

I'm checking the locations, and it looks like these Avars with non-Asian Y-DNA are concentrated mostly in Southeast Hungary. It looks like an oasis of Daco-Romans survived in this area.
The lack of Slavic Y-dna among these Avars is surprising, it looks like Avaro-Slavs were a thing of the outer edges of Pannonia, and in the core area was more of a Avar-Roman-Germanic mix. It's hard to believe now Slavic was a lingua franca of the Avar Khaganate.

Although there might be singular clades of V13 during the genesis of proto-Slavs, I find it highly unlikely, if not impossible for E-V13 as a whole to be Slavic. Unless Slavs had a Southern European origin.

 

[Hawk]

That's not possible, you have high rich uniparental Slavic markers among Croats, Bosnians, Slovenians and high autosomal Slavic and you see a decrease on E-V13 among them. I think that's clear.

Herodotus claimed that after Indians the Thracians were the most numerous nation in the ancient world, so i wouldn't be surprised if E-V13 was solely Thracian. I don't know.

 

[enter_tain]

Although this might bum some people out like those Bosnians who thought all their I2 was Illyrian in origin, because only R1a was supposed to be Slavic. This EV-13 penetrates deep within Russia and the steppe.

 

[enter_tain]

Although there might be singular clades of V13 during the genesis of proto-Slavs, I find it highly unlikely, if not impossible for E-V13 as a whole to be Slavic. Unless Slavs had a Southern European origin.

I didn't say all of EV-13 is Slavic. It's too widespread to be any one thing. But labelling as a Balkanite Y-DNA is factually wrong at this point. It's way too common outside of the Balkans in antiquity.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I didn't say all of EV-13 is Slavic. It's too widespread to be any one thing. But labelling as a Balkanite Y-DNA is factually wrong at this point. It's way too common outside of the Balkans in antiquity.

I am not sure. Could you take an example? Of the very old E-V13 I know of only a Spanish or was it French one? So if anything West European. All the others I am aware of are in the Balkans, with even scientific papers claiming E-V13 likely originated in the Balkans.

Furthermore the E-V13 that you claim is in the Steppe and Russia is downstream from basal clades. Don't quote me on this as I am no expert on V13.

Lastly... Kosovars would not be so E-V13 heavy and clustering with Northern Greeks if E-V13 was Slavic. Really this does not add up. Please read bce's quote I had above in my first response. If anything there is a lack of Slavic markers even in Pannonian Avars, which many fora members considered Slavic ethnically.

 

[enter_tain]

I am not sure. Could you take an example? Of the very old E-V13 I know of only a Spanish or was it French one? So if anything West European. All the others I am aware of are in the Balkans, with even scientific papers claiming E-V13 likely originated in the Balkans.

Furthermore the E-V13 that you claim is in the Steppe and Russia is downstream from basal clades. Don't quote me on this as I am no expert on V13.

Lastly... Kosovars would not be so E-V13 heavy and clustering with Northern Greeks if E-V13 was Slavic. Really this does not add up. Please read bce's quote I had above in my first response. If anything there is a lack of Slavic markers even in Pannonian Avars, which many fora members considered Slavic ethnically.

Kosovar EV-13 is just a recent genetic bottleneck. Northern Albania was dominated by a few clans that drastically change the Y-DNA% ratios.

Don't confuse modern YDNA% with autosomal/descent. We've seen how Y-DNA ratios have drastically change in Europe over thousands of years. Small populations will change their % a lot.

 

[enter_tain]

clustering with Northern Greeks if E-V13 was Slavic.

We had a study that said 1/3 of Greek DNA is "Polish-like" or "Ukrainian-like". Certainly makes more sense that the guy who said Thracian gave it to the Greeks.

 

[Hawk]

Kosovar EV-13 is just a recent genetic bottleneck. Northern Albania was dominated by a few clans that drastically change the Y-DNA% ratios.

Don't confuse modern YDNA% with autosomal/descent. We've seen how Y-DNA ratios have drastically change in Europe over thousands of years. Small populations will change their % a lot.

Not at all, the only bottleneck we know is Berisha-Sopi. These two families have no other subclade anywhere close to them after Late Bronze Age, the closest one are one Italian from Calabria i think and one Bulgarian from Plovdiv.

Otherwise, the same can be said of J2b2-L283, there is absolutely no diversity in Kosovo as far as J2b2-L283 comes. Krasniqi, Gashi are the most common surnames in Kosovo nowadays. (though a part of Gashi seem to be E-V13 ->L241 due to them being Bardhi).

 

[enter_tain]

Not at all, the only bottleneck we know is Berisha-Sopi.

Otherwise, the same can be said of J2b2-L283, there is absolutely no diversity in Kosovo as far as J2b2-L283 comes. Krasniqi, Gashi are the most common surnames in Kosovo nowadays. (though a part of Gashi seem to be E-V13 ->L241 due to them being Bardhi).

There's no diversity because most Kosovars are just a recent expansion of the Gegs. Their language attests to this. Their dialect is almost identical all the way up to Shkodra.

 

[Johane Derite]

But labelling as a Balkanite Y-DNA is factually wrong at this point. It's way too common outside of the Balkans in antiquity.

Now you are resorting to outright lies in desperation.

Ev13 has been found confirmed in pre-slavic viminacium, it has been found in iron age thrace. We already have ancient samples of it in the balkans, and they are just going to keep coming.

It is factually wrong to try claim it is not a balkan haplogroup at this point.

 

[mount123]

That's not possible, you have high rich uniparental Slavic markers among Croats, Bosnians, Slovenians and high autosomal Slavic and you see a decrease on E-V13 among them. I think that's clear.

Herodotus claimed that after Indians the Thracians were the most numerous nation in the ancient world, so i wouldn't be surprised if E-V13 was solely Thracian. I don't know.

Neither would I be surprised.

 

[mount123]

There's no diversity because most Kosovars are just a recent expansion of the Gegs. Their language attests to this. Their dialect is almost identical all the way up to Shkodra.

As someone with roots in Central and East Kosovo I can assure you that neither are we an extention of the Gegs of Northern Albania nor is our language identical to people from Shkodra. Our roots run deep we did not "move" here in the dark ages.

 

[enter_tain]

Now you are resorting to outright lies in desperation.
Ev13 has been found confirmed in pre-slavic viminacium, it has been found in iron age thrace. We already have ancient samples of it in the balkans, and they are just going to keep coming.
It is factually wrong to try claim it is not a balkan haplogroup at this point.

Yes, we've seen all the Slavs, Avars, Scythians that come from the Balkans. You are just being hard-headed because you know your theories rely on stupidity.

 

[mount123]

Not at all, the only bottleneck we know is Berisha-Sopi. These two families have no other subclade anywhere close to them after Late Bronze Age, the closest one are one Italian from Calabria i think and one Bulgarian from Plovdiv.

Otherwise, the same can be said of J2b2-L283, there is absolutely no diversity in Kosovo as far as J2b2-L283 comes. Krasniqi, Gashi are the most common surnames in Kosovo nowadays. (though a part of Gashi seem to be E-V13 ->L241 due to them being Bardhi).

There is diversity in regards to J2b-L283 in Kosovo: What about Kastrati? Which may I add is a big tribe. One might have the surname Strofci but that does not change the fact that Strofci are a subset of Krasniqi. Also what about Korbi? Hoti?

 

[enter_tain]

As someone with roots in Central and East Kosovo I can assure you that neither are we an extention of the Gegs of Northern Albania nor is our language identical to people from Shkodra. Our roots run deep we did not "move" here in the dark ages.

Come on mate

I'm from southern Albania, but it's quite clear my ancestors (for the most part) came from Northern Albania north of the Jirecek line too.

 

[Hawk]

There is diversity in regards to J2b-L283 in Kosovo: What about Kastrati? Which may I add is a big tribe. One might have the surname Strofci but that does not change the fact that Strofci are a subset of Krasniqi. Also what about Korbi? Hoti?

Kastrati and Korbi are relatively quite small in numbers. Hoti is like the only big tribes i can see.