To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[mount123]

Come on mate

I'm from southern Albania, but it's quite clear my ancestors (for the most part) came from Northern Albania north of the Jirecek line too.

Kam ken in Shkodra is Jum kan in the Prishtina Valley how are these closely related. Kam ken is clearly more related to standard Albanian and even Tosk just to name one example. I can assure you that a Shkodra native won't understand a Central or East Kosovan when they speak pure Katun style.

 

[Hawk]

Now you are resorting to outright lies in desperation.
Ev13 has been found confirmed in pre-slavic viminacium, it has been found in iron age thrace. We already have ancient samples of it in the balkans, and they are just going to keep coming.
It is factually wrong to try claim it is not a balkan haplogroup at this point.

Yeah, that sounds right. Now Bruzmi plays the cards, tries to project it as Southern European marker, he comes too desperate on his attempts. Ignoring what other people already are acknowledging.

Let's just put it like this, i will not label as Proto-Thracian, but rather one of the main lineages on forming the Danubian Urnfield Complex. It's quite clear that E-V13 is not a steppe lineage, it's a Neolithic derived, but that doesn't change the fact that it rose up in and around somewhere from Alps to Western Carpathians initially during Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age.

He is so good at cherrypicking, he tries to make it Southern European, but then again when Ancient Greece is mentioned he says that E-V13 percentage in Greece is artificially inflated, there is no E-V13 in Greece and similar stuff. Dude is textbook cherrypicker.

 

[enter_tain]

Yeah, that sounds right. Now Bruzmi plays the cards, tries to project it as Southern European marker, he comes too desperate on his attempts. Ignoring what other people already are acknowledging.

Let's just put it like this, i will not label as Proto-Thracian, but rather one of the main lineages on forming the Danubian Urnfield Complex.

You're just making up fake Y-DNA/cultures at this point, because we lack samples.

EV-13 is a Pan-European Y-DNA, which yes, is most common in southern Europe. We have a pre-EV13 from Neolithic Spain. But it's association with Central/Eastern Europeans like Slavs, Avars and Scythians is undeniable. Better than you trying to make Greeks Thracians.

 

[mount123]

You're just making up fake Y-DNA/cultures at this point, because we lack samples.

EV-13 is a Pan-European Y-DNA, which yes, is most common in southern Europe. We have a pre-EV13 from Neolithic Spain. But it's association with Central/Eastern Europeans like Slavs, Avars and Scythians is undeniable. Better than you trying to make Greeks Thracians.

What the heck? Those were pre existing locals that were incorporated into their ethnos. That does not mean that they are Slavic in origin. Wasn't "Bruzmi" that editor at the Illyrians Wikipedia page that deleted the genetics section with the tons of J2b-L283 samples because he did not like that it wasn't found together with E1b-V13? What is wrong with you people. Get help.

 

[enter_tain]

What the heck? Those were pre existing locals that were incorporated into their ethnos. That does not mean that they are Slavic in origin. Wasn't "Bruzmi" that editor at the Illyrians Wikipedia page that deleted the genetics section with the tons of J2b-L283 samples because he did not like that it wasn't found together with E1b-V13? What is wrong with you people. Get help.

Who is "Bruzmi"? I have no idea what you're talking about.

EV-13 is like I2. An originally Neolithic Y-DNA (though inherited from HGs) that got spread all over Europe. It's most common in southern Europe and the Balkans, but it is not "Balkanite". Plenty of Slavs have I2, even though it's common in southern Europe.

 

[Hawk]

You're just making up fake Y-DNA/cultures at this point, because we lack samples.

EV-13 is a Pan-European Y-DNA, which yes, is most common in southern Europe. We have a pre-EV13 from Neolithic Spain. But it's association with Central/Eastern Europeans like Slavs, Avars and Scythians is undeniable. Better than you trying to make Greeks Thracians.

You do know that Slavic urhemait/homeland is very deep probably in forest steppe, chances E-V13 to be part of their group are slim to 0%, for Avars 0%, for Scythians same 0%. The Steppe was like a highway, and Carpathian mountains were like natural barrier. Once the Romans beated Dacians in their war against Decebalus, a lot of Dacians were enslaved (just as Dalmatians were previously enslaved and most of young males ended up working in Italian mines) then the Free Dacians living in Carpathian mountains hated the Romans, so probably they will join the ranks whoever was enemy of Rome.

 

[enter_tain]

You do know that Slavic urhemait/homeland is very deep probably in forest steppe, chances E-V13 to be part of their group are slim to 0%, for Avars 0%, for Scythians same 0%. The Steppe was like a highway, and Carpathian mountains were like natural barrier. Once the Romans beated Dacians in their war against Decebalus, a lot of Dacians were enslaved (just as Dalmatians were previously enslaved and most of young males ended up working in Italian mines) then the Free Dacians living in Carpathian mountains hated the Romans, so probably they will join the ranks whoever was enemy of Rome.

"Slavs" are a modern ethnic group that go back to Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages. I'm not talking about some Neolithic R1a people.

Once the Romans beated Dacians in their war against Decebalus, a lot of Dacians were enslaved (just as Dalmatians were previously enslaved and most of young males ended up working in Italian mines) then the Free Dacians living in Carpathian mountains hated the Romans, so probably they will join the ranks whoever was enemy of Rome.

You should write some fiction on Reddit or something. This ain't the forum for you.

 

[Hawk]

You should write some fiction on Reddit or something. This ain't the forum for you.

That's certainly true, after Bato's Wars, a lot of young Dalmatian males were enslaved by Romans, hence why J2b2-L283 is so low today in Dalmatia. They devastated and moved people all over the place.

In between I-II century their biggest enemy in Europe were the Dacians. After beating Dacians they did the same to them as they did to Dalmatians.

 

[Fustan]

E-V13 non-Balkanic? This has to be the most stupid thing ever written in any thread on Eupedia. I'm sorry entertain but your posts are absolutely ridiculous right now.

 

[enter_tain]

E-V13 non-Balkanic? This has to be the most stupid thing ever written in any thread on Eupedia. I'm sorry entertain but your posts are absolutely ridiculous right now.

What is "non-Balkanic"? EV-13 is spread all over Europe. The earliest related Y-DNA is from Neolithic Spain.

There are Scythians, Slavs, and Avars with this Y-DNA. It exists in Italy, Germany, Russia, Scandinavia, etc... It has it's highest modern frequency in the Balkans, but that doesn't make it "Balkanic".

It's like saying I2 is "Balkanic".

 

[enter_tain]

People are too biased here. They're just trying to make their Y-DNA exclusive to their own ethnic groups. Even Illyrians that have been pre-dominantly J2B2-L283, are not the sole carriers of that Y-DNA.

You can't say those J2B2-L283-heavy Sardianians "Balkanic" or "Illyrian". Regions or ethnic groups don't own a Y-DNA. The whole point of the analysis is to see the path of migration and how it got there.

 

[Archetype0ne]

These are diversity heatmaps.
You can not say E-V13 (as a whole, not particular branches that might not apply) is not Balkanic in origin due to it being widespread in all of Europe, and not say the same thing for L283 if you are basing your conclusion on the same faulty logic.

"

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
— Cruciani et al. (2007)
​

According to some authors E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans and its presence in the rest of the Mediterranean is likely a consequence of Greek colonization.^[22][23][24] Within Europe, E-V13 is especially common in the Balkans and some parts of Italy. In different studies, particularly high frequencies have been observed in Kosovo Albanians (45.6%^[25]), Macedonian Albanians (34.4%^[14]), Albanians (32.29%Cruciani et al. (2007)) , and in some parts of Greece (ca. 35%^[26]).^[27]

The TMRCA of European V13 is 4700–4000 years ago.^[35] Phylogenetic analysis suggest that the European v13 spread through Europe from the Balkans in a "rapid demographic expansion".^[35]

The distribution and diversity of V13 are often thought to represent the introduction of early farming technologies, during the Neolithic expansion, into Europe by way of the Balkans.^[12] The haplogroup J2b (J-M12) has also frequently been discussed in connection with V13, as a haplogroup with a seemingly very similar distribution and pre-history.^[3][6][12] (There is no consensus regarding the circumstances or timing of its evolution.)"


All this is not news. Out of the blue going reactionary and attributing V13 to non Balkan peoples due to some faulty logic is perplexing.

 

[Riverman]

These heatmaps are not representative though, because a lot of the relevant populations being severely undertested.
The situation is even worse on YFULL than on FTDNA, where way more other people tested.

The story of E-V13 might be rather complex, with different centres at different times.

 

[Archetype0ne]

These heatmaps are not representative though, because a lot of the relevant populations being severely undertested.
The situation is even worse on YFULL than on FTDNA, where way more other people tested.
The story of E-V13 might be rather complex, with different centres at different times.

Interesting that you noticed when I was not even making that point. It is that obvious.
The concern you raise I have myself raised before. But we can not focus on the data we do not have, and ignore the data we do have.
I myself am trying to use the most up to date tools I can, if anyone knows better tools, suggest them and I will incorporate them into my posts.

 

[Riverman]

Interesting that you noticed when I was not even making that point. It is that obvious.
The concern you raise I have myself raised before. But we can not focus on the data we do not have, and ignore the data we do have.
I myself am trying to use the most up to date tools I can, if anyone knows better tools, suggest them and I will incorporate them into my posts.

I usually go after the FTDNA Blocktree, Scaledinnovation predictions, ancient samples and on YFULL the general phylogeny and TMRCA.
There is no easy tool to sum it all up imho.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Thanks for the suggestion. You might know my reservation on the FTDNA database from my discussions with Ghurier.
On the ancient samples though, that is a point I have to agree on, and even thought of adding as an edit to my previous reply. The lack of V13 in the Western Balkans from the current ancient samples really complicates things*. I think it will be clear one way or the other once both the Lazaridis as well as the Bulgarian papers are out.
I would add your cultural analysis is also a very nice tool. But things get complicated as you say with limited data points.

*Added the asterix since Western Balkans and a Southern route are not equivalent. And the large block of sourced text I lifted of wikipedia (yes, I know) was making an argument for a southern route.

Do you have a stat about number of Romanian flags on Y-Full btw? Would be interesting to actually do the math. If we were talking about heatmaps, it would indeed be an unavoidable factor, but I do believe statistically speaking diversity could be accurately depicted even using survey methods given a certain minimal data threshold.

 

[Riverman]

Romania, Moldova, Slovakia, Carpathian Poland and Transcarpathian Ukraine are key areas for the debate, with both the ancient and modern samples being absolutely insufficient.
A huge Problem is the cremation horizon. Illyrians are in their Southern core regions easier to test because of inhumation burials.
Daco-Thracians did cremate most of the time...

As for modern ethnic Romanians, there are just not enough samples anywhere, but from those I saw, they can be split in Southern Vlach derived, unklar and more Northern affinities.
But key is that even the few Romanian and Moldovan samples can rival the diversity and position of much better tested Albanians in some major clades.
This is no final proof of anything, but it means that we are just not there yet with the limited data base available to be sure.
Like even Greeks do appear with old clades too, again split in a similar way as Romanians.
They both have old subclades with no current matches anywhere. We don't know where they fit in exactly, but it looks old.
In many major clades the diversity of Albanians doesn't exceed that of the English, the othrr well tested group.
That alle is quite telling.

The ratio of sampling vs diversity is imho relatively better in a lot of people, including Bulgarians and Greeks, but also more Northern people.

 

[enter_tain]

These are diversity heatmaps.
You can not say E-V13 (as a whole, not particular branches that might not apply) is not Balkanic in origin due to it being widespread in all of Europe, and not say the same thing for L283 if you are basing your conclusion on the same faulty logic.

"

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
— Cruciani et al. (2007)
​

According to some authors E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans and its presence in the rest of the Mediterranean is likely a consequence of Greek colonization.^[22][23][24] Within Europe, E-V13 is especially common in the Balkans and some parts of Italy. In different studies, particularly high frequencies have been observed in Kosovo Albanians (45.6%^[25]), Macedonian Albanians (34.4%^[14]), Albanians (32.29%Cruciani et al. (2007)) , and in some parts of Greece (ca. 35%^[26]).^[27]

The TMRCA of European V13 is 4700–4000 years ago.^[35] Phylogenetic analysis suggest that the European v13 spread through Europe from the Balkans in a "rapid demographic expansion".^[35]

The distribution and diversity of V13 are often thought to represent the introduction of early farming technologies, during the Neolithic expansion, into Europe by way of the Balkans.^[12] The haplogroup J2b (J-M12) has also frequently been discussed in connection with V13, as a haplogroup with a seemingly very similar distribution and pre-history.^[3][6][12] (There is no consensus regarding the circumstances or timing of its evolution.)"


All this is not news. Out of the blue going reactionary and attributing V13 to non Balkan peoples due to some faulty logic is perplexing.

NONE of those Y-DNA are Balkanic in origin. J2B2, EV13 are markers of Indo-Europeans who settled in the Balkans, just like R1b, R1a, etc... Their dates states so.

Native Balkans ("Pelasgians"), were G, T, I2, J1, etc... Sorry to break this to you but the current J2B2/EV13s clades were brought to the Balkans by Indo-Europeans. Indo-Europeans are not Balkanites.

 

[enter_tain]

Only reason people ever claimed J2 and EV-13 were non-IE was because they were found in high EEF populations. But Spain is high EEF and almost entirely IE paternally. No reason why it'd be different for Albanians and Greeks.

The EEF components in Europeans are maternal, even in populations where they're 70-80% EEF. J2B2-L283 is clearly CHG-related (very likely a minority IE-CHG lineage). EV-13 might have originally been Neolithic (we'll see), but all the modern clades go back to the Bronze Age, and are clearly from Central/Eastern like all IE-lineages.

Are we back to denying Indo-European migrations now?

 

[Dibran]

Thanks for the suggestion. You might know my reservation on the FTDNA database from my discussions with Ghurier.
On the ancient samples though, that is a point I have to agree on, and even thought of adding as an edit to my previous reply. The lack of V13 in the Western Balkans from the current ancient samples really complicates things*. I think it will be clear one way or the other once both the Lazaridis as well as the Bulgarian papers are out.
I would add your cultural analysis is also a very nice tool. But things get complicated as you say with limited data points.

*Added the asterix since Western Balkans and a Southern route are not equivalent. And the large block of sourced text I lifted of wikipedia (yes, I know) was making an argument for a southern route.

Do you have a stat about number of Romanian flags on Y-Full btw? Would be interesting to actually do the math. If we were talking about heatmaps, it would indeed be an unavoidable factor, but I do believe statistically speaking diversity could be accurately depicted even using survey methods given a certain minimal data threshold.

If I recall correctly, supposedly an upcoming paper on Albanian aDNA(think more the South of Albania??) has E-V13 appearing in Iron Age Albania and J2b-L283 in Middle to late BA Albania together with R1b-PF7652.