To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[mount123]

If we can deduce somehow if not by aDNA directly, IMO there is a chance Vatin represents as a culture an admixture between the three Albanian Y-DNA's. A cultural complex where they met, E-V13, J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103. An educated guess.

Could be. With Brnjica, Glasinac Mati and Channeled Ware Dardania still is the best option for such a scenario.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

From the other forum:

I find it funny how Maleschreiber lumps different eras and archeological complexes together. He blatantly blends out the Balkan Yamnayan R1b that is negative for L23 and very likely R1b-PF7562 and tries to connect the Pylos samples with EBA Cetina movements into Greece when this lineage is completely absent in Cetina.

The steppe movements into ancient Greece are overwhelmingly Yamnaya related and that is the reason for the occurrence of this rather rare haplogroup there.

Hawk and the Bosnian are correct, Brumi can see the haplogroups in upcoming papers. So the Messapii will yield R1b-PF7562/3.

 

[mount123]

Hawk and the Bosnian are correct, Brumi can see the haplogroups in upcoming papers. So the Messapii will yield R1b-PF7562/3.

Which "Bosnian"? Anyways I don't care, point was that rare haplogroup PF7562 absolutely did not spread to Greece with EBA Cetina as it has nothing to do with Cetina whatsoever and its initial spread can be attributed to Yamnaya (see Balkan Yamnayan Cinamak L23- sample) where it accounted for a tiny percentage. If later on South Central Balkan Brnjica-like groups, absolutely fundamental to the Paeonian/Phrygian ethnos, perhaps have joined Cetina expansions in miniscule percentages is a whole nother topic. Sea peoples who most likely are the alliance of certain European and Mediterranean cultures can also be a possibilty. There is also of course Greeks and a whole bunch of other possible groups.

Matzinger did actually suggest the former scenario if I'm not wrong.

Also, Maleschreiber doesn't "see the results" unless he is involved in the peer review process of certain papers which given his poor intellect I very much doubt. Otherwise there wouldn't be misinformation posts of his in the past. He gets these news from posters in contact with geneticists, archeologists who are direct authors of the papers in question or involved in the peer review of certain papers.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Which "Bosnian"? Anyways I don't care, point was that rare haplogroup PF7562 absolutely did not spread to Greece with EBA Cetina as it has nothing to do with Cetina whatsoever and its initial spread can be attributed to Yamnaya (see Balkan Yamnayan Cinamak L23- sample) where it accounted for a tiny percentage. If later on South Central Balkan Brnjica-like groups, absolutely fundamental to the Paeonian/Phrygian ethnos, perhaps have joined Cetina expansions in miniscule percentages is a whole nother topic. Sea peoples who most likely are the alliance of certain European and Mediterranean cultures can also be a possibilty. There is also of course Greeks and a whole bunch of other possible groups.

Matzinger did actually suggest the former scenario if I'm not wrong.

Also, Maleschreiber doesn't "see the results" unless he is involved in the peer review process of certain papers which given his poor intellect I very much doubt. Otherwise there wouldn't be misinformation posts of his in the past. He gets these news from posters in contact with geneticists, archeologists who are direct authors of the papers in question or involved in the peer review of certain papers.

Osaka Omaha guy, E-V13 Bosnian from Sandzak.

You are making the assumption that people to be in such positions have to be qualified, non-biased or distinguished in intellect. You will be surprised how the real world works, when you land a job in your profession you will learn.

Brumi likely played a role in the date forgery of the Korca PF7562 sample. And if he is involved in peer review, by himself or through his benefactors in the field he is holding up the Danubian frontier from getting published, delaying it as much as he can. I wonder, under whose genius we wasted a 3rd of the Albanian samples on magical medieval mound burials(chasing unicorns) that turned up to be gypsies. Who is responsible for that blunder?

 

[mount123]

Osaka Omaha guy, E-V13 Bosnian from Sandzak.

You are making the assumption that people to be in such positions have to be qualified, non-biased or distinguished in intellect. You will be surprised how the real world works, when you land a job in your profession you will learn.

Brumi likely played a role in the date forgery of the Korca PF7562 sample. And if he is involved in peer review, by himself or through his benefactors in the field he is holding up the Danubian frontier from getting published, delaying it as much as he can. I wonder, under whose genius we wasted a 3rd of the Albanian samples on magical medieval mound burials(chasing unicorns) that turned up to be gypsies. Who is responsible for that blunder?

Interesting. Where did that guy post?

Oh I am very well aware of the occasional bad ethics in the archaeogenetic world. We had more than one such occasion where non radiocarbon dated Slavic samples have made it through "peer review" twice.

But hasn't the Korca sample been radiocarbon dated if I remember correctly? If so the dating is reliable if not then that is a different situation. You are thinking too much of that internet persona, I feel like.

Yeah, the medieval burials site selection for Albania has been comedic indeed

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Interesting. Where did that guy post?

Oh I am very well aware of the occasional bad ethics in the archaeogenetic world. We had more than one such occasion where non radiocarbon dated Slavic samples have made it through "peer review" twice.

But hasn't the Korca sample been radiocarbon dated if I remember correctly? If so the dating is reliable if not then that is a different situation. You are thinking too much of that internet persona, I feel like.

Yeah, the medieval burials site selection for Albania has been comedic indeed

This Bosnian. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42815-E-V13-coming-from-Hatvan-culture

The question is what got tested for radiocarbon vs what was tested for genes. It can't be the same sample, and personally, I think a bad character is involved.

The issue with I13834 is not singular, it is everything.
1) Zero Slavic admixture in the plain of Korca at 1400 AD. Barc is right next to the two Slavic villages of Drenove and Boboshtice, which were Slavic speaking until 50 years ago. If you go to Boboshtice, at least one of the restaurants has it's menu in Slavic Cyrillic.
2) Kukes 850 AD, and Shtike 990 AD both show noticeable Slavic mixture in G25. Shtike is on the foot of mount Grammos, highest mountain in southern Albania. Kukes is also in the mountains of northern Albania. To put it in perspective, samples from mountain zones in Albania, 500-600 earlier have Slavic mixture, while a person 500-600 years later in the plain of Korca, one of the most Slavic admixed areas of Albania, if not the most, shows zero Slavic.
3) Both Kukes and Shtike show Roman imperial MENA admixture, the Korca sample magically skipped 600 years of Roman rule and was untouched by this ME mixture.
4) The bones come of a ancient timulus burial mound.
5) The aDNA profile is almost identical to MKD Ohrid group, which are basically IA samples from the opposite of lake Ohrid. What are the odds that the sample has the same profile as the IA samples from a adjacent area?


There is a clear pattern and trail here. When you tally the abnormal reads, the 1400 AD date is impossible. Someone acted in bad faith and if they did, they also likely engage in online forums doing the similar types of forgery like making up fake G25 values and shifting them toward Illyrians.

Yeah, the medieval burials site selection for Albania has been comedic indeed

I agree, but now we probably have to wait 5 years until new samples from Albania are tested and released to the public.

 

[Excine]

The issue with I13834 is not singular, it is everything.

The sample is radio-carbon dated and if you knew anything about radio-carbon dating you would understand that it's not a simple procedure that can just "go wrong". The end result is produced after many tests. Not only is the result correct, but the same result was obtained for other samples:

• I13836/1237; Tumulus 2, grave 8, 7 (petrous bone), genetically female, adult.
Her age is estimated to be over 40 years old. The skeleton only preserves the skull. The skeleton derives from Tumulus 2, grave 8. The grave was oriented north-south. The skeleton was well-preserved, in a supine extended position, with the right hand on the abdomen and the left by the side. No grave goods were found in the grave. Radiocarbon date obtained from this individual is: 1452-1619 calCE (385±15 BP, PSUAMS-8300).

• I13834/1235; Tumulus 2 , grave 1? (petrous bone), genetically male, adult.
His age is estimated to be over 40 years old. The skeleton is well presented.
The skeleton most likely derives from Tumulus 2, grave 1. The grave was oriented NE-SW, with the inhumation in a supine extended position. The radiocarbon date obtained from this individual was 1402-1439 calCE (515±20 BP, PSUAMS-5942).

So what you're saying is that radio-carbon dating produced the same wrong result for two different samples in a series of many tests. It's laughable. Do yourself a favor and try to read how such matters work.

Tumuli in Albania were re-used during the middle ages and there's nothing "weird" about finding a medieval profile which is close to IA profiles from the same region. It just means that a part of the Albanian population didn't have much admixture with other groups even in the middle ages. We've got plenty of modern samples which have very small amounts of other admixtures and this explains why this sample is actually close to modern Albanians, but has even less admixture from other sources:

Distance to: ALB_MA:I13834
0.02996863 Greek_Thessaly
0.03053380 Italian_Tuscany
0.03247228 Italian_Emilia
0.03272630 Italian_Piedmont
0.03307333 Albanian
0.03360127 Italian_Lombardy
0.03569227 Swiss_Italian
0.03570263 Italian_Umbria
0.03579009 Greek_Macedonia
0.03590673 Greek_Argolis

There's no problem, it's just that you don't like the results . It's utterly irrelevant if the Slavs of Boboshtica have menus in Cyrillic. Have as many Cyrillic menus as you want, it won't change the fact that in the same region the local profile was retained throughout the ages up to the modern day for at least a part of the population.

PS 1
Your idea that internet fora members, Lazaridis, the Reich Lab and the Albanian government are all conspiring to make IA samples look modern is beyond laughable...but seriously you're not doing yourself a favor by posting crazy conspiracy theories just because you don't like the fact that they show that Albanians lived in the early medieval Korca plain and the Slavs of Boboshtica just came in the middle ages and were later slowly pushed out by the local Albanians and other Albanians who came from other areas. Just deal with it.


PS 2
This is not going to be forgotten:

PS 3
Add to the list of groups who are "conspiring" FTDNA. They uploaded the sample exactly for what it is: a medieval man from the early 15th century. Cheers.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-PF7563/tree

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The sample is radio-carbon dated and if you knew anything about radio-carbon dating you would understand that it's not a simple procedure that can just "go wrong". The end result is produced after many tests. Not only is the result correct, but the same result was obtained for other samples

It can easily go wrong if the people involved chose to engage in fraud. And with people like you and Brumi, it's not hard to imagine how that can happen.

So what you're saying is that radio-carbon dating produced the same wrong result for two different samples in a series of many tests. It's laughable. Do yourself a favor and try to read how such matters work.

It has the same date as the gypsies, but a IA or LBA profile. This only gives more insight how the idiot that pulled this off managed it. A gypsy was used for the date and an ancient for the aDNA.

Tumuli in Albania were re-used during the middle ages and there's nothing "weird" about finding a medieval profile which is close to IA profiles from the same region.

My grandparents were not buried in tumulis, thanks for the laugh though. Maybe your ancestors were gypsies and like to play "we were kangz" games.

It just means that a part of the Albanian population didn't have much admixture with other groups even in the middle ages. We've got plenty of modern samples which have very small amounts of other admixtures and this explains why this sample is actually close to modern Albanians, but has even less admixture from other sources:

LOL Big assumptions made on a fraudulent date. Where are these Albanians that score BA genetics? Do you have a special G25 collection that you're hiding?

There's no problem, it's just that you don't like the results . It's utterly irrelevant if the Slavs of Boboshtica have menus in Cyrillic. Have as many Cyrillic menus as you want, it won't change the fact that in the same region the local profile was retained throughout the ages up to the modern day for at least a part of the population.

I showed you the results, if I didn't like them, I would bury my head in the sand like you. Korca region is the most Slavic in Albania. Genetic and cultural facts. Cope with it.

Your idea that internet fora members, Lazaridis, the Reich Lab and the Albanian government are all conspiring to make IA samples look modern is beyond laughable...but seriously you're not doing yourself a favor by posting crazy conspiracy theories just because you don't like the fact that they show that Albanians lived in the early medieval Korca plain and the Slavs of Boboshtica just came in the middle ages and were later slowly pushed out by the local Albanians and other Albanians who came from other areas. Just deal with it.

They don't have to conspire for this to occur, shady behavior by the Alb team is enough to make it happen.

PS 2
This is not going to be forgotten:

What are you going to do about it?

PS 3
Add to the list of groups who are "conspiring" FTDNA. They uploaded the sample exactly for what it is: a medieval man from the early 15th century. Cheers.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-PF7563/tree

Wow, God has spoken. I am humbled.

 

[Hawk]

It's remarkable if we dig deep, and as a starting point we just start with the almost 100% E-V13 samples in Svilengrad. They were newcomers in South-East Bulgaria. The question is from where? The answer is South-Western Carpathians if we do "reverse engineering" from archaeological studies. They were descended from cultures closely related to Tei, Verbicoara (Insula Banului, Babadag, Psenicevo). Another remarkable feature of these cultures is that they completely lack burials, or very likely their burial rite is still unknown from archaeological studies. What they do say is that they were truly related to Gava in North just as Hungarian archaeologist Gabor Vekony stated, Romanian archaeologists totally agree with him. And their related cultural people up north cremated their dead and instead of putting the ashes in urns they scattered around.

At this point, to me, i'll bet that Tei, Verbicoara, Grla-Mara/Dubovac Zuto Brdo, and extremely likely Gava and Vatin are the core zones of all E-V13. If E-V13 is to be found in Central/Western Balkans then the likely proxy is Vatin and/or Belegis-Gava II.

 

[Riverman]

It's remarkable if we dig deep, and as a starting point we just start with the almost 100% E-V13 samples in Svilengrad. They were newcomers in South-East Bulgaria. The question is from where? The answer is South-Western Carpathians if we do "reverse engineering" from archaeological studies. They were descended from cultures closely related to Tei, Verbicoara (Insula Banului, Babadag, Psenicevo). Another remarkable feature of these cultures is that they completely lack burials, or very likely their burial rite is still unknown from archaeological studies. What they do say is that they were truly related to Gava in North just as Hungarian archaeologist Gabor Vekony stated, Romanian archaeologists totally agree with him. And their related cultural people up north cremated their dead and instead of putting the ashes in urns they scattered around.

At this point, to me, i'll bet that Tei, Verbicoara, Grla-Mara/Dubovac Zuto Brdo, and extremely likely Gava and Vatin are the core zones of all E-V13. If E-V13 is to be found in Central/Western Balkans then the likely proxy is Vatin and/or Belegis-Gava II.

Agreed, Belegis II-G?va is a highly likely bet, Vatin is likely mixed but might have had it too (in the mix).

 

[Hawk]

Agreed, Belegis II-G�va is a highly likely bet, Vatin is likely mixed but might have had it too (in the mix).

I digged in Romanian archaeology. You might take a look in Romanian and then google translate. It's absolutely true that Psenicevo, Babadag and Insula Banului consist a complex. And they were either directly descended or related to Tei and Verbicoara but also Grla-Mara or in Serbia called Dubovac-Zuto Brdo. And they do state that they have quite of similarities with Gava up north (same thing stated by Hungarian archaeologist Gabor Vekony). They don't mention Vatin, but from other sources there is potentially a relationship with Vatin as well.

Tei, Verbicoara and especially the cousin culture of E-V13 Psenicevo Insula Banului almost completely lack burials, the only known Insula Banului burial is a cremation burial. But the whole material package is definitely cousin culture of Svilengrad-Psenicevo EIA.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

This is not my expertise, but Babadag did not cremate, I understand that as being distinct from the cremation groups.

https://dergipark.org.tr/en/download/article-file/12687

 

[Hawk]

This is not my expertise, but Babadag did not cremate, I understand that as being distinct from the cremation groups.

https://dergipark.org.tr/en/download/article-file/12687

Babadag and Psenicevo were evolved Early Iron Age groups, so i expect changes to have happened for example from flutes/channeling or also called grooves to stamping pottery and slight change of burial rite like using pits, mogilla/tumuli. Both Babadag and Psenicevo are related with Insula Banului or also called Ostrov group, these are complexes, they are supposed to descend or be related to Tei, Verbicoara who have no burials at all known to archaeologists and Grla-Mara/Dubovac-Zuto Brdo, a culture which practiced cremation on urns.

The Insula Banului which is related to Psenicevo-Babadag has no burials known to Romanian archaeologists, only 1 which is cremation. That's how i understood.

[FONT=var(--nova-font-family-sans-serif)]... Research concerning Early Iron Age cultural manifestations in Southeastern Europe has often been based on typological and stylistic characteristics of pottery in an attempt to identify archaeological cultures. Thus, drawing on observations made during excavations at Babadag and Insula Banului, Sebastian Morintz determined the existence of a great cultural complex, including several groups, characterised by pottery decorated with similar stamped motifs (Morintz and Roman 1969), to which later other cultural groups were added: Cozia (László 1972;Hänsel 1976;Iconomu 1996); Saharna-Solonceni (between the Carpathians and Dniestr) (Мелюкова 1958;1961;1979;Kашуба 2000;Niculiţă et al. 2008;Niculiţă et al. 2016;Niculiţă and Nicic 2014); Pšenicevo (Bulgaria) (Чичикова 1968;Čičikova 1971;Stoyanov and Nikov 1997;Heхризов 2006a;Heхризов and Цветкова 2008). As a result, an immense area between the Rhodopi Mountains, Middle Dniestr and along the Danube, from the Iron Gates to the river's mouth, belongs to the same cultural complex (Fig. 1). ...


[/FONT]



[FONT=var(--nova-font-family-sans-serif)]... Despite this fact, it must be emphasised that, at present, there are differences in the degree of research on the cultural groups that are usually attributed to the stamped pottery horizon. While in the case of the groups Babadag, Saharna or Pšeničevo there are important data resulting from large-scale excavations in archaeological sites such as Babadag (Morintz 1964;Jugănaru 2005;Jugănaru and Ailincăi 2003;Ailincăi et al. 2005Ailincăi et al. -2006, Jijila (Sîrbu et al. 2008), Niculiţel (Topoleanu and Jugănaru 1995;Ailincăi and Topoleanu 2003;Ailincăi 2008;Ailincăi et al. 2016;, Enisala Ailincăi et al. 2013;Ailincăi and Constantinescu 2015), Revărsarea (Ailincăi 2013a), the Saharna area (Niculiţă and Nicic 2014;Niculiţă et al. 2008;Niculiţă et al. 2016), Svilengrad (Hиколов et al. 2006;Hиколов et al. 2008), Malkoto Kale (Domaradski et al. 1986Домарадски et al. 1992) or Rogozinovo (Stoyanov and Nikov 1997), the cultural groups Insula Banului or Cozia remain less known. ...


[/FONT]



https://www.researchgate.net/figure...rmantarea-1-1-lada-din-piatra_fig21_326326132

Very few graves have been found from Tei, Verbicoara, and those few are mainly cremations in urns.

One more thing:

Descoperirile arheologice din nordul Olteniei din epoca
hallstattului ne-au dus la formularea unor concluzii. Se poate
considera că în secolul XII - XI în. d. Chr. fenomenul de
hallstattizare, privind din punctul de vedere al culturii materiale, era
încheiat, iar tracii erau definitiv formaţi la nivelul culturilor Gava -
Holihrady şi Babadag - Insula Banului - Cozia - Psenicevo.

The archaeological discoveries in northern Oltenia from the era
Hallstatt led us to formulate some conclusions. May
considered that in the 12th - 11th century d. Chr. the phenomenon of
Hallstattization, looking from the point of view of material culture, was
ended, and the Thracians were definitively formed at the level of the Gava cultures -
Holihrady and Babadag - Banului Island - Cozia - Psenicevo.

PRIMA EPOCĂ A FIERULUIÎN NORDUL OLTENIEIRezumatul tezei de doctorat - dr. Gheorghe Calotoiu

A similar paper to Calatoiu by Dr. Marian Gumă helds the same position, supported by Hungarian archaeologist Gabor Vekony.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Babadag might have been partially composed of a substrate population that was not Thracian (which would explain MJ12) and practiced inhumation.

The form of disposal can be classified into: simple disposal, when the deceased are
not subject to further interventions (primary inhumation/burial, aquatic disposal, surface
disposal); and compound disposal, which implies a series of actions leading to the reduction
process (burial/later disinterment, exposure to air, fermentation in pots, exposure to animals,
mechanical defleshing, cremation, chemical decomposition)98

http://revistapeuce.icemtl.ro/wp-co...e-SN-III-IV-2005-2006/04-Ailincai-et-alii.pdf

And from reading, it looks like Babadag and Dacians practiced sacrifice burials (just plain body dumbs). It is possible to find E-V13 of rival Daco-Thracian tribes through this manner.


As I understand it, the core Thracian zones were almost exclusively cremated, we are lucky the southern Thracian aristocracy adopted Greek style burials as a prestige symbol, which gives us a trail. Roman samples provide the next step in the trail, when locals stop cremating, and E-V13 samples sprout like mushrooms.


Also of note, Babadag came to a violent end during the Cimmerian/Thracian invasions and later the Greeks colonized the area.
https://antikmuseet.au.dk/fileadmin/www.antikmuseet.au.dk/Pontosfiler/BSS_4/BSS4_04_Avram.pdf

 

[Riverman]

This is not my expertise, but Babadag did not cremate, I understand that as being distinct from the cremation groups.

https://dergipark.org.tr/en/download/article-file/12687

Babadag did cremate in the early stages, when Channelled Ware came in, but they had irregular burials of inhumation, especially sacrificial pits. Something G?va had already, even Suciu de Sus, but more of it. They began then to transition to inhumation over time. The main influences working on Babadag are in my opinion Lapus II-G?va/G?va-Holigrady (East), Coslogeni (fusion of local Carpathians, probably Wietenberg-related and Noua-Sabatinovka, probably Iranian-related Srubna groups or they were the original Thracian speakers, unresolved...) and newly arriving steppe groups which might be considered the beginning of the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon (source in Koban).

Most G?va/Channelled Ware-related groups did primarily transition to inhumation because of these Noua-Coslogeni and Cimmerian/Koban influences. Psenichevo itself was already a later stage, at that point some Eastern G?va-groups being already under pressure and the larger network, which was in my opinion pretty much a unity, began to break up under steppe influence/attacks.

The most continuity was in Northern G?va, in and around Transcarpathia, in the area which was later the Sanislau Vekerzug group and Kustanovice, which some consider Proto-Dacian.

As for the Danubian groups, I consider them more Encrusted Pottery related with this WHG-rich and I2-G2 dominated block running from Western Hungary (Encrusted Pottery proper) to EBA Bulgaria/South Romanian Monteoru.

The cremating pre-Channelled Ware groups were partially in between, but mostly to their North, North East of the Tisza-Danube borderline, with the centre being very clearly Suciu de Sus into Lapus/Berkesz-Demecser into G?va.

The decisive influence for inhumation came mostly from the steppe, not the Greeks. We see that in late Babadag-Psenichevo as well as in Mezocsat in the Tisza area and Babadag later too. Its the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon which spread plus the Noua-Sabatinovka influences which altered their customs imho.

 

[Hawk]

Psenicevo-Babadag, it's true they don't contain cremation burials, yet their material culture totally correlates them with the people who were known as the world's biggest cremation users.

Their Bronze Age predecessors don't even contain burials, just as their third brother culture Insula Banului. The burials of Insula Banului (if i am not wrong) are still contested in Romanian archaeology, there is only 1 or very few burials and those are cremation.

Psenicevo-Babadag pit burials were considered as an exception burials or sacrificial pits, but recent archaeologists have questioned and doubt this, because there is no sign of fatal injuries on the bones to conclude sacrifice. If they are exceptions then where are the main burials? The burials are extremely weird to be honest. Moreover, one Psenicevo-Svilengrad individual in the pit was of high status based on how carefully he was buried.

Personally i would say after Late Bronze Age the cultures or people of Psenicevo and Babadag switched to pit inhumations because cremation was an expensive ritual, and they could no longer afford it maybe because after LBA collapse the many cultures saw dark ages. But, who knows.

 

[Hawk]

I probably have to also slightly correct myself, by lacking burial it meant that they still didn't discover them fully because there is a lot of urn burials in the region.

Besides some discoveries with pottery similar with the Vârtop type,apparently isolated (see above Căzăneşti – “Săveasca”, Vâlcea County), to thebeginning period of the First Iron Age was attributed a series of sites identified inthe Râmnicu Vâlcea area, from which is distinguished the urn cremation necropolisfrom Râureni. On the tall bank of the river Olt had been dug, by Emil Moscalu, twonecropolises, one of urn cremation attributed to the Early Hallstatt and another,tumular, that belongs to the Ferigile group from the Late Hallstatt. The cremationnecropolis (Râureni I) included 100 individual (urn) tombs, disposed along theriver Olt, each urn containing a great quantity of burned bones. This so-called“urns field” is partially superposed by the tumular necropolis mentioned before.The author of the dig considered that there were two different necropolises:Râureni I, from the beginning of the Iron Age and Râureni II, from the Ferigile period,without an evolutive organic connection between them. About these two necropoliseswere published only short preliminary reports, along with few illustrations. No data areavailable about the exact number of tombs, neither details about their type or theconnection between the earlier tombs and the Ferigile tumuli13.

https://www.anubih.ba/godisnjak/god47/5-Aleksandar Kapuran.pdf

I also guess biritualism was used on the region depending on the influences, for instance Monterou practiced mostly inhumation burials while the subsequent Dacians unlike Southern Thracians used mostly cremation on tumuli.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The good news here is Babadag did not fully cremate, plus there is a good chance they practiced sacrificial inhumation. There is a lot of potential in the remains, because even if it was not a fully Thracian derived culture and people, it was essentially under siege by the Thracian horizon. And the samples are bound to have E-V13 and aDNA profiles which would correctly narrow down the original north Thracian profile.

My only question is, are there any DNA samples down the pipeline from this culture waiting to be published?

 

[Hawk]

Babadag is fully Thracian derived, it's the closest culture of those E-V13 we saw in Svilengrad along with Insula Banului the predeccessor culture of so called Bosut-Bassarabi.

Thracians were known to use both cremation and inhumation per records.

[FONT=&quot]Other historical records, concerning heroic burials of dead people from the Thracian élite, also exist. Herodotus29 wrote that the deceased Thracian nobles were buried by cremation or inhumation in tumuli, after three days of prothesis during which numerous sacrifices were made and funeral feasts were arranged; different contests, including single combats, followed the piling of the tumuli. Later information by Xenophon30 could be added to this description: in 399 B.C., after a battle in Bithynia, the Thracian Odrysae buried their dead comrades, drank a lot of wine and arranged horse-racing in memory of the deceased. In an earlier period – over the late 6th century B.C., in a similar way the inhabitants of the Thracian Chersonesos, following the custom, made sacrifices and arranged horse-races and other athletic games in memory of the Athenian aristocrat Miltiades the elder, who established his rule in the region, being tyrannos of both Athenian colonists and Thracian Dolonkoi31. The tomb-temple of the heroized mythical Greek military leader Protesileos, who died in the Troyan war, was also located in the Thracian Chersonesos – at Elaious; the adyton was surrounded by témenos, while impressive gold and silver phialae, plus other rich offerings, were placed there32. The tomb of Protesileos was even respected with sacrifice by Alexander the Great33 and later it was known as a significant temple34. Another Greek, who received heroic status in Thrace was the Spartan general Brasidas. He died in 422 B.C. and was buried near the agora of Amphipolis, while his tomb was surrounded by a wall and the citizens celebrated Brasidas as a heros and founder through annual sacrifices and contests35. Actually, this particular piece of evidence is not surprizing in the context of the already mentioned records about the tomb of the heroized mythical king Rhesos, located in the region of Amphipolis, and probably some interrelation in these cult practices could be supposed.


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https://books.openedition.org/pulg/792?lang=en

To my understanding the Dacians, Mysians used more extensively cremation burials while Southern Thracians were more bi-ritual.

 

[Riverman]

Babadag is fully Thracian derived, it's the closest culture of those E-V13 we saw in Svilengrad along with Insula Banului the predeccessor culture of so called Bosut-Bassarabi.

Thracians were known to use both cremation and inhumation per records.



To my understanding the Dacians, Mysians used more extensively cremation burials while Southern Thracians were more bi-ritual.

Agreed and again I would just add that Babadag shows the transition, from the exclusive cremation burials in G?va-Holigrady to the bi-ritual and more inhumation oriented customs of some Lower Danube and Basarabi groups. The decisive factor seem to be local and especially steppe influences in my opinion, but we also see the internal shift probably.

In any case, the real question is which group was dominant in Babadag, the G?va-Holigrady people, the Noua-Wietenberg and Coslogeni people, or some unknown factor/group.