To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Hawk]

does this site linked ...hold any value to you ?
https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283/

I am going to kindly ask you if you have nothing of value to add atleast don't jump out of nowhere with senseless questions. What does the phylogeographer of J2b2-L283 has to do with what we were discussing? I noticed you do the same thing in J2b2-L283 thread. Over there out of nowhere you put out of context questions as you do here, likely to disrupt the flow of discussions.

 

[Hawk]

According to some Russian sources, the so called Phrygian-Thracian helmet, hat shape actually could likely represent the citrate flame which was a cult/religious symbol among Ottomani-Wietenberg and Carpathian groups.

 

[Francesco]

Might be of your interest: https://mobile.***********/nrken19/status/1630218806743252993

 

[Riverman]

According to some Russian sources, the so called Phrygian-Thracian helmet, hat shape actually could likely represent the citrate flame which was a cult/religious symbol among Ottomani-Wietenberg and Carpathian groups.

Isn't it rather an imitation of the elite signal Phrygian hat - Dacians had a similar cap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_cap

It might have been spread either as late as the Scythians or being much older in the Carpatho-Balkan region. But I think it was rather spread by the Iranian pastoralists which in some regions formed an elite, upper class and from them the custom was taken.

 

[Francesco]

Maybe the hat and the helmet developed independently in two different regions and they just happen to have a similar shape. But I find the hypothesis of a common origin, maybe from an iranic antecessor, pretty fascinating.

 

[Riverman]

Maybe the hat and the helmet developed independently in two different regions and they just happen to have a similar shape. I don't know where the so called Phrygian - Thracian helmet is first attested. I think it first developed in Greece, but maybe it has a more northern Balkan origin.

If you follow the link, it was a common headgear among Iranians, like Scythians. And among the Dacians its being said that the elite wore a cap, while the commoners and slaves were bareheaded. The Greeks just encountered it primarily among the Phrygians, which in turn came from the Balkans.

 

[Hawk]

If you follow the link, it was a common headgear among Iranians, like Scythians. And among the Dacians its being said that the elite wore a cap, while the commoners and slaves were bareheaded. The Greeks just encountered it primarily among the Phrygians, which in turn came from the Balkans.

Yeah, even Achaemenid Persians wore this kind of hats.

The Thracian similarities with Iranic people on general, hats, clothes and horsemanship confused me in the past: add the description that they were some blue eyed red haired people i always thought they might be primarily R1a carriers, with the I2a2-Din among North Dacians, but it just turns out E-V13 was the major Thracian lineage, influences both-hands should never be underestimated.

Funny, Dardanian king Monunius helmet was actually of this kind of hat. Thraco-Phrygian.

What makes even more interesting is that Monunius is a name attested among Odrysian Thracians, one of Odrysian princes is called Monunius as well.

 

[torzio]

Maybe the hat and the helmet developed independently in two different regions and they just happen to have a similar shape. But I find the hypothesis of a common origin, maybe from an iranic antecessor, pretty fascinating.

https://www.academia.edu/3487780/A_NEW_HELMET_FROM_MACEDONIA

http://legio-iiii-scythica.com/imag...elmets_with_Feathers_Crowns_and_Ram_horns.pdf

Phrygian helmets, also known as the Thracian helmet is
characterized with its high and forward inclined apex


Phrygia is in western central Anatolia

Phrygian cap is what every Doge of Venice wore

 

[mount123]

@PaleoRevenge

Very spot on with Southern Albania!

Coming from one of the aforementioned European Association of Archeologists abstracts for this year:

"Archaeogenomic pilot research of Kamenice, a prehistoric Albanian tumulus (1600-500 BCE)

Situated in southeastern Albania at the interface of the Aegean and the Adriatic, the Tumulus of Kamenice was used for inhumations from 1600 to 500 BCE. In this work, we generated genome-wide SNP data for 25 individuals from Kamenice that span the full time transect, providing the unique and first possibility for insights into biological relatedness and demography of a single tumulus in Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Albania.
We identified a genetically homogeneous population throughout the respective time in contrast to all societal transformations in the wider region. Moreover, we found evidence for a patrilineal society, within which all the males’ Y chromosomes belong to two distinct sub-groups of R1b1a1b (M269). We identified the biological relatedness up to 6th degree with IBD analysis. The amount of relatedness raised after 750 BCE. We also detected a signature of a population size decrease around 750 BCE using HapROH, which coincides with the prevalence of Y chromosome lineage R1b1a1b1b3 and a new way of grave construction. Besides, a female individual was biologically related to individuals both before and after 750 BCE. Overall, all the ancient DNA evidence support a local population bottleneck event."

R1b-Z2103 and the other I am assuming R1b-PF7562. I highly suspect them to be identical to MBA-IA North Macedonia/MBA Ulanci group.

 

[mount123]

This should be another interesting entry : "Isotopic and genetic analysis of the individuals buried in the Early Iron Age mass grave from Gomolava, Serbia"

That is quite south of the Fruska Gora mountain range and nearer to Sremska Mitrovica. Sremska Mitrovica has yielded Middle Danubian Tumulus culture lineage(s), Svilos-Krusevlje which is more North Western (Croatian-Serbian border region) situated has also yielded one such lineage next to an early CE J2b-L283 sample. Wondering if post-BA-EIA dispersal of Belotic Bela Crkva, Paracin, Brnjica would have caused the presence of maybe R1b-Z2103 in this location, not really sure if any influence from the broader Balkan-Carpathian complex would lead to the presence of other lineages such as E1b-V13.

Mass graves are also a rather interesting case, have not looked deeper into archeological work on Gomolava.

 

[Hawk]

That's interesting, yeah, my first guess would be R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7562. But, for a reason i will not exclude R1b-L51 because this region, South Albania did receive an Urnfield input, but they don't mention any post LBA input, so i guess it's safer to assume R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7562 since those tumulus grave are exclusive inhumations.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

@PaleoRevenge

Very spot on with Southern Albania!

Coming from one of the aforementioned European Association of Archeologists abstracts for this year:

"Archaeogenomic pilot research of Kamenice, a prehistoric Albanian tumulus (1600-500 BCE)

Situated in southeastern Albania at the interface of the Aegean and the Adriatic, the Tumulus of Kamenice was used for inhumations from 1600 to 500 BCE. In this work, we generated genome-wide SNP data for 25 individuals from Kamenice that span the full time transect, providing the unique and first possibility for insights into biological relatedness and demography of a single tumulus in Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Albania.
We identified a genetically homogeneous population throughout the respective time in contrast to all societal transformations in the wider region. Moreover, we found evidence for a patrilineal society, within which all the males’ Y chromosomes belong to two distinct sub-groups of R1b1a1b (M269). We identified the biological relatedness up to 6th degree with IBD analysis. The amount of relatedness raised after 750 BCE. We also detected a signature of a population size decrease around 750 BCE using HapROH, which coincides with the prevalence of Y chromosome lineage R1b1a1b1b3 and a new way of grave construction. Besides, a female individual was biologically related to individuals both before and after 750 BCE. Overall, all the ancient DNA evidence support a local population bottleneck event."

R1b-Z2103 and the other I am assuming R1b-PF7562. I highly suspect them to be identical to MBA-IA North Macedonia/MBA Ulanci group.

That's pretty awesome, no idea how you found it, I am assuming it is buried in the site(embl), I tried and found nothing. Per description, R1b-Z2103 is the late comer and becomes the dominant haplogroup after 750 BCE.

My guess was based on the Barc "mdv" sample which is blatantly LBA in aDNA profile and the corresponding R1b-PF7653 found in LBA Greece. I don't think I did anything out of the ordinary other make a cold emotionless read.

Noteworthy that Messapii are associated with matt-painted pottery culture which was stationed in southern Albania, these are the guys that brought this language to Italy which shares similarities to ours. A dead-end branch, but one of our guys.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

This should be another interesting entry : "Isotopic and genetic analysis of the individuals buried in the Early Iron Age mass grave from Gomolava, Serbia"

That is quite south of the Fruska Gora mountain range and nearer to Sremska Mitrovica. Sremska Mitrovica has yielded Middle Danubian Tumulus culture lineage(s), Svilos-Krusevlje which is more North Western (Croatian-Serbian border region) situated has also yielded one such lineage next to an early CE J2b-L283 sample. Wondering if post-BA-EIA dispersal of Belotic Bela Crkva, Paracin, Brnjica would have caused the presence of maybe R1b-Z2103 in this location, not really sure if any influence from the broader Balkan-Carpathian complex would lead to the presence of other lineages such as E1b-V13.

Mass graves are also a rather interesting case, have not looked deeper into archeological work on Gomolava.

Per Carles Fox presentation, Gomolova is part of his samples in the slides(Roman and post-Roman).
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page38?p=665216&viewfull=1#post665216

It is fair to assume his Serbian IA samples are from Gomolova or at least include Gomolova. And we already kind of know what Carles Fox paper results will be.

 

[Riverman]

This should be another interesting entry : "Isotopic and genetic analysis of the individuals buried in the Early Iron Age mass grave from Gomolava, Serbia"

That is quite south of the Fruska Gora mountain range and nearer to Sremska Mitrovica. Sremska Mitrovica has yielded Middle Danubian Tumulus culture lineage(s), Svilos-Krusevlje which is more North Western (Croatian-Serbian border region) situated has also yielded one such lineage next to an early CE J2b-L283 sample. Wondering if post-BA-EIA dispersal of Belotic Bela Crkva, Paracin, Brnjica would have caused the presence of maybe R1b-Z2103 in this location, not really sure if any influence from the broader Balkan-Carpathian complex would lead to the presence of other lineages such as E1b-V13.

Mass graves are also a rather interesting case, have not looked deeper into archeological work on Gomolava.

I wrote about that before and its interesting for the transition from Belegis II-G?va -> Gornea-Kalakaca -> Bosut-Basarabi in the region. Question is also who dumped whom (plague, war, ritual?) into the pits. Similarities to Babadag and other mass burial pits can be seen as well. It could yield some E-V13, because all three groups are distantly related candidate cultures, with Gornea-Kalakaca being kind of the least reliable one, forming a short interlude between Belegis II-G?va and Basarabi, which were both longer lasting. I tend to say more continuity than discontinuity, but some other authors might disagree and see more of a change between these three layers which are all of great importance.
But it is, in any case, a good candidate for potential E-V13 finds if they sample enough males. Its post-Belegis II-G?va.

 

[torzio]

Noteworthy that Messapii are associated with matt-painted pottery culture which was stationed in southern Albania, these are the guys that brought this language to Italy which shares similarities to ours. A dead-end branch, but one of our guys.

Thanks......another nail in the coffin that Messapii and Daunians are not related

 

[Hawk]

It's often overlooked but it's interesting how deep the Gauls-Celts penetrated into Balkans after III B.C. It's like they completely destroyed one of the two strongest Paleo-Balkan sub-tribes like Illyrian Autariate and Thracian Triballi. I think the Dardanii managed to hold the ground against them. Scordisci were living right in Central Balkans and Pannonia was already populated by Celts heavily mixed with Illyrians on one side and Thracians on other side.

One must wonder what happened with them, but reading it looks like initially they got in trouble with Roman Empire like other Paleo-Balkan people first, and the decisive factor was Dacian chieftain Burebista and his Dacians like almost cleaned the Balkans from them, a lot of Celts were likely massacred by Dacians and many fled further in the West.

 

[torzio]

It's often overlooked but it's interesting how deep the Gauls-Celts penetrated into Balkans after III B.C. It's like they completely destroyed one of the two strongest Paleo-Balkan sub-tribes like Illyrian Autariate and Thracian Triballi. I think the Dardanii managed to hold the ground against them. Scordisci were living right in Central Balkans and Pannonia was already populated by Celts heavily mixed with Illyrians on one side and Thracians on other side.
One must wonder what happened with them, but reading it looks like initially they got in trouble with Roman Empire like other Paleo-Balkan people first, and the decisive factor was Dacian chieftain Burebista and his Dacians like almost cleaned the Balkans from them, a lot of Celts were likely massacred by Dacians and many fled further in the West.

The celts took the Autariate ( north bosnian tribe ) with them in their failed invasion of Delphi Greece............the remnants of the celts formed the scordisci and the remnants of the Autariate became one of the tribes which was part of the "illyrian proper" group in Montenegro.

I have been saying and adding links in my past posts that the dardanians where a tough people holding out far longer than any illyrian people to their west

 

[Archetype0ne]

Quite dope. So Kamenica was packed with R1b. Time and time again, the region looks very patriarchal in nature. It is interesting that in Maros both Z2103 and L283 are found together, yet a couple of kilometers apart in Montenegro/Albania we have exclusive R1b or exclusive L283 burials.

 

[Riverman]

The Scordisci had a lot of Daco-Thracian people in their territory as well, so it was a really mixed Balkan alliance - at least on paper. The problem is like always that most of the locals in that time period, the Daco-Thracian locals, did cremate. In the earlier Basarabi period, under Cimmerian and Scythian influence, there were in some areas more inhumation burials of Danubian Daco-Thracians.

 

[torzio]

The Scordisci had a lot of Daco-Thracian people in their territory as well, so it was a really mixed Balkan alliance - at least on paper. The problem is like always that most of the locals in that time period, the Daco-Thracian locals, did cremate. In the earlier Basarabi period, under Cimmerian and Scythian influence, there were in some areas more inhumation burials of Danubian Daco-Thracians.

history states that the Scordisci-celts subjugated the thracian Triballi neighbours ..............I though I already linked the article