To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[eupator]

No haplogroup could like that by simlpy being "local Balkan". I say it directly, that's BS.
It is not about E-V13 or any other haplogroup, but such patterns don't emerge by "local Balkan lineages". This comment just proves that you don't know and understand the E-V13 phylogeny and branching events, or that of any other haplogroup.

Because the principles behind a haplogroup expansion is always the same. If there is no migration-ethnic event, there is no spread in the times of tribes and folks. There can be migration into a state, but even then its initially ethnic-associated and related to a specific reproductive and socio-cultural behaviour, kind of a package.

In the Bronze and Early Iron Age however, people spread mostly by conquest and claiming ressources, including females from the patrilinear perspective. And there is no way, absolutely no way, that the E-V13 growth could have happened without radical, violent, significant expansion of a people in the MBA to EIA. That is simply impossible. The enormous peak of growth in the LBA-EIA transition speaks for itself.

And since we know, with certainty, that E-V13 pops up where Daco-Thracians lived, more frequently than anywhere else, and that there were replacement events and shifts in Balkans before that, we know there was an ethnic-demic diffusion of E-V13, with the vector being Daco-Thracian ethnicities.

The Daco-Thracian cultural package was astonishingly stable over time, if you think about e.g. cremation burials of their kind and pottery with channels and knobs appearing right from the start in the MBA up to the last moment of their existence (latest handmade pottery from groups associated with the Carpi and the Dacian fruit bowls before).

That spans a regional Carpatho-Balkan tradition of 2.000 years, which only disappeared in the migration period.

Τhe reason modern Greece (and I assume the rest of the Balkans) have so much E-V13 is due to 9th-11th century Dacian migrations from the region that would be later known as Wallachia and Moldavia, nothing to do with BA/IA.

And the reason it was made possible was due to their intermixing/association with the Bulgarians and their empire/principalities. There's nothing mysterious about it, it's just another marker for Medieval South Slavic incursion.

 

[eupator]

Maybe you'll find E-V13 among Macedonians, that E-V13 in Idomenae was not out of nowhere.

Also, Dacians were never conquered by Greeks, on their time, they were the only kingdom to put a fight and challenge to Rome especially at their strongest point of empire, long time after Greek states were completely demolished by Roman military.

Yes, I agree, Dacians (North) were never affected by the Greeks but Thracians (South) were.

And by the Achaemenids before that.

 

[Southpaw]

Yes, I agree, Dacians (North) were never affected by the Greeks but Thracians (South) were.

And by the Achaemenids before that.

When Dacians rose to power, they completely roasted Celts/Gauls who almost destroyed all Balkan populations, Burebista completely changed the landscape, many of them were butchered. Also the Iranic tribes lost their ground, Dacians were roasted by Roman Empire who during that time was too big to handle anyway for them, Rome could get warriors from 4 corners of the world.

I have the feeling that the whole Barbarian-Ware/Handmade-Burnished Ware in Late Bronze Age Greece accompanied by cremation burials and burning of palaces cannot be a local phenomenon out of nowhere, these were people who archaeologically were related to Iron Age (E-V13) from Kapitan Andreevo and in Troy.

 

[boriss]

Maybe you'll find E-V13 among Macedonians, that E-V13 in Idomenae was not out of nowhere.

Also, Dacians were never conquered by Greeks, on their time, they were the only kingdom to put a fight and challenge to Rome especially at their strongest point of empire, long time after Greek states were completely demolished by Roman military.

Wouldn't be suprissed if in Ancient Macedonians - EV-13 plays large role, Channelled Ware did invade Vardar valley before Ancient Macedonians formed and we do see cremation cultures in the region popping out.

 

[TetaEglantina]

When Dacians rose to power, they completely roasted Celts/Gauls who almost destroyed all Balkan populations, Burebista completely changed the landscape, many of them were butchered.

I have the feeling that the whole Barbarian-Ware/Handmade-Burnished Ware in Late Bronze Age Greece accompanied by cremation burials and burning of palaces cannot be a local phenomenon out of nowhere, these were people who archaeologically were related to Iron Age (E-V13) from Kapitan Andreevo and in Troy.

Yes and V13 likely played a role in Urnfield which was actually a major culture

 

[Southpaw]

Yes and V13 likely played a role in Urnfield which was actually a major culture

Urnfield was not a culture, but cultural complex which is a bit different in terms of a population formation, it means various different people because of shared values, religions share similar traits. It was like Bronze Age version of Christianity/Islam, various different people at much much smaller scale.

But yeah, E-V13 was just a founder-effect within Balkan-Carpathian/South-Eastern Urnfield sphere during LBA-EIA, that's all.

 

[Johane Derite]

Well speaking about brumi. On the Genarchvist forum right now he is adamantly saying dacians can't have e v 13

Just keep in mind that this person in the exact same way adamantly wrote countless posts insisting that the Brnjica culture did not exist. He is a bad faith actor, he is not engaging in debate, he's just doing propaganda. If it were that he just strongly held these opinions and stood up for them then that would be fine, he would just be wrong. But the way he operates is entirely around managing perception and agitating to get people that challenge that effort blocked. On the genarchivist 1.0 forum the moment he showed up there was an alert that the thread was being monitored. Likewise now notice how he is desperately trying to do damage control with the latest sarmatian results. I'm curious to see with more and more results how his narratives will change.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Urnfield was not a culture, but cultural complex which is a bit different in terms of a population formation, it means various different people because of shared values, religions share similar traits. It was like Bronze Age version of Christianity/Islam, various different people at much much smaller scale.

Tbh religion = culture but yeah you're right there. My point is V13 people seemed to always cremate and Urnfield was built on that ideology. Most will disagree but isn't there a possibility that a group of V13 leaders took over Tumulus to create Urnfield and spread the cremation ideology

 

[Southpaw]

Tbh religion = culture but yeah you're right there. My point is V13 people seemed to always cremate and Urnfield was built on that ideology. Most will disagree but isn't there a possibility that a group of V13 leaders took over Tumulus to create Urnfield and spread the cremation ideology

I don't know, you are just trying to upset our Bell-Beaker buddies then. Having a V13 chieftain results in catastrophic event like Hitler with Nazism.

On a serious note, Urnfield was born when Tumulus and local Carpathian Cremating groups mingled, what happened in details, no one knows, i guess the Tumulus were either Proto-Celtic or related to them, i wonder what happened with them on historical times, did they leave their trace or were gone by then.

 

[TetaEglantina]

I don't know, you are just trying to upset our Bell-Beaker buddies then. Having a V13 chieftain results in catastrophic event like Hitler with Nazism.

On a serious note, Urnfield was born when Tumulus and local Carpathian Cremating groups mingled, what happened in details, no one knows, i guess the Tumulus were either Proto-Celtic or related to them, i wonder what happened with them on historical times, did they leave their trace or were gone by then.

In my vivid imagination I see V13 taking over the eastern and central part of Tumulus, some of them fled west and into Italy to become the "Italo celts". However some Tumulus people stayed and were integrated to become Urnfielders alongside the V13. Then Urnfield culture spread more and more west over time

 

[Omino]

You just proved my point, maybe R-L2 also was illyrian but they were 95% j2b l283. What has Cinamak got to do with Dalmatia?

The 95% stuff is silly,we literally have less than 2 dosen samples from 2-3 locations

 

[TetaEglantina]

The 95% stuff is silly,we literally have less than 2 dosen samples from 2-3 locations

Fair enough, let's wait for more

 

[mount123]

The 95% stuff is silly,we literally have less than 2 dosen samples from 2-3 locations

Incorrect. There are well over two dozen samples, more than 32 sampled locations in the Western Balkans and throughout the peninsula, while more than 25 locations cover relevant time frames and are appropriately archaeologically classified with regards to J2b-L283. There are also more than 10 BC samples from Italy which, given the phylogeny, archaeological context and auDNA, can undoubtedly, ultimately be traced to a trajectory also originating from the Western Balkans. The defining and most dominant patrilineage of the prehistoric Dalmatians is J2b-L283.

 

[Robotnick]

I hope it's not too big of a tangent but I wonder about the relationship between these original Carpathian peoples who cremated and the Proto-Umbro-Sabellic peoples who I think were among the Eastern Bell Beaker (L2) peoples dwelling in Pannonia by the MBA.

These people may have been Urnfieldized at some point. Indirect and circumstantial evidence indicates they may have picked up some Balkan admixture, perhaps mostly from Illyrian related peoples carrying J2b-L283, R1b-Z2103. I'm less sure about E-V13 but that's also a possibility.
I imagine the upcoming paper about the Picenes will be somewhat illuminating.

I'm currently entertaining a hypothesis that Umbro-Sabellic was the original Proto-Villanovans, but first they started invading Italy around the MBA due to pressure from expanding Daco-Illyrian tribes. A Pannonian migration into North Italy by the Middle to Late Bronze Age is demonstrated by artifacts, and quite possibly dna (L2 in North Italian ancient samples by this time, Z49 and downstream S8183 especially, and this subclade appears to have a Middle Danube-Slovenia-North Adriatic tendency, and elsewhere in the Balkans. Other subclades like L20, ZZ48, and DF90 could have easily been among them)
They brought the practice of cremation to the Terramare Culture. Some came as warrior elites and some may have assimilated into some Etruscan speaking settlements around the Po Valley. This leans on Etruscans being at least present in the Terramare Culture which imo is very plausible. Ancient Etruscan samples bore most of the subclades above, and including the Alpine marker U152>Z36 which could have been among the Umbro-Sabellics of the Middle Danube as well.

A dent in this theory is the fact that Umbro-Sabellic peoples appear to have been exclusively inhumators by the later Iron Age, but it's possible they simply dropped the practice, while it persisted among their Etruscan counterparts.
I think Latin-Faliscan was from an earlier migration into Italy (perhas from elsewhere too), who were subsequently urnfieldized by these Proto-Villanovans whether Etruscan and/or Sabellic speaking, but they put their own spin on it with Hut-shaped urns. Cicero and others attest to inhumation being the more archaic rite among Latins.

I don't think these L2 Eastern-BB derived peoples were Celtic speaking originally, but Italic. I lean on a "Celtic from the Center" hypothesis and Celtic speakers may not have had significant presence in the Middle Danube until Western Hallstatt or La Tene expansions.

 

[Riverman]

As for Urnfield came up, it was a fusion of invading Tumulus culture people and East Carpathian-Balkan survivors.

You see that clearly by how much Tumulus culture influence being present in the Carpatho-Balkan cremation block, especially in the Pre-Gáva sphere, and at the same time, because these Eastern Carpathians weren't ever fully conquered and stood their ground, the Tumulus culture warrior clans came to terms with their Eastern neighbours.

When the network were established, all kinds of goods and ideas were going forth and back. The Carpathian Tumulus culture group (= Egyek group), Cehalut etc., also Piliny (Pre-Kyjatice), between the Danube and Tisza were the hub in between the two spheres, as were more Southern groups too.

As a result, the Tumulus culture people, totally dominated by R-L51, especially R-L2, came into contact with the ideas and religion of the Eastern Carpathian groups, which began to form, under Tumulus culture influence, the Pre-Gáva horizon, spread to the West, to other Tumulus culture people.

And that's why the "E-V13 religion" spread to the West, and was carried on, very clearly, by Tumulus culture clans (predominantely R-L51/R-L2). There surely was some migration and exchange, of artisans, priests, warriors etc., and that's how the first and oldest Western E-V13 branches might have ended up in former Tumulus culture territory.

But its very clearly that this was no conquest, but rather a missionary event and spread within the Tumulus culture networks. However, outside of the Tumulus culture networks, it turned into a brutal conquest on various occasions again!

That's like the vast majority of Arabs being converted to Islam first, and then, from that base, the second expansion was much more bellicose in most, but again not all instances.

The Gáva-Channelled Ware South Eastern Urnfielders, presumably dominated by E-V13, did adopt Tumulus culture ideas, techniques and customs, the Tumulus culture did adopt Eastern Carpathian ideas, techniques etc. The result was a superiour package of ideology, organisation and tools, most notably the Naue II/Reutlingen slashing sword, but also casted spearheads, larger shields etc., kind of a "Pre-Hoplite" war tactic, which we find among the Sea Peoples too.

That package spread so rapidly over vast stretches of land, that its hard to determine who brought it up first, because it appears practically the same time in Gáva and Kyjatice (Eastern Carpathian basin), in Middle Danubians (Western Carpathian basin) and in Protovillanovans (Italy). Therefore we have an Axis: Tisza-Danube-Alps at the start of Urnfields expansion outside.

And all three groups expanded in different directions, with little pushes into their fellow Urnfield neighbours territory. Gáva-related Channelled Ware expanded East and South, Middle Danubians in all directions, especially the West Balkans, but not strongly into Gáva territory and Protovillanovans took Italy.

Concerning the Celts: They clearly come from the Western groups of the Tumulus into Urnfield culture tradition and being surely closely connected, but probably not identical, with the Middle Danubians.

I think there can be little doubt that the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture/later Urnfield group was Italo-Celtic Centum speakers. The question is just how close they were to either Celtic and Italic. We probably won't ever know. But R-L2 is a major lineage for the whole Tumulus - Urnfield - Hallstatt sphere and surely involved in the "making of Celts" to some degree.

 

[TetaEglantina]

As for Urnfield came up, it was a fusion of invading Tumulus culture people and East Carpathian-Balkan survivors.

You see that clearly by how much Tumulus culture influence being present in the Carpatho-Balkan cremation block, especially in the Pre-Gáva sphere, and at the same time, because these Eastern Carpathians weren't ever fully conquered and stood their ground, the Tumulus culture warrior clans came to terms with their Eastern neighbours.

When the network were established, all kinds of goods and ideas were going forth and back. The Carpathian Tumulus culture group (= Egyek group), Cehalut etc., also Piliny (Pre-Kyjatice), between the Danube and Tisza were the hub in between the two spheres, as were more Southern groups too.

As a result, the Tumulus culture people, totally dominated by R-L51, especially R-L2, came into contact with the ideas and religion of the Eastern Carpathian groups, which began to form, under Tumulus culture influence, the Pre-Gáva horizon, spread to the West, to other Tumulus culture people.

And that's why the "E-V13 religion" spread to the West, and was carried on, very clearly, by Tumulus culture clans (predominantely R-L51/R-L2). There surely was some migration and exchange, of artisans, priests, warriors etc., and that's how the first and oldest Western E-V13 branches might have ended up in former Tumulus culture territory.

But its very clearly that this was no conquest, but rather a missionary event and spread within the Tumulus culture networks. However, outside of the Tumulus culture networks, it turned into a brutal conquest on various occasions again!

That's like the vast majority of Arabs being converted to Islam first, and then, from that base, the second expansion was much more bellicose in most, but again not all instances.

The Gáva-Channelled Ware South Eastern Urnfielders, presumably dominated by E-V13, did adopt Tumulus culture ideas, techniques and customs, the Tumulus culture did adopt Eastern Carpathian ideas, techniques etc. The result was a superiour package of ideology, organisation and tools, most notably the Naue II/Reutlingen slashing sword, but also casted spearheads, larger shields etc., kind of a "Pre-Hoplite" war tactic, which we find among the Sea Peoples too.

That package spread so rapidly over vast stretches of land, that its hard to determine who brought it up first, because it appears practically the same time in Gáva and Kyjatice (Eastern Carpathian basin), in Middle Danubians (Western Carpathian basin) and in Protovillanovans (Italy). Therefore we have an Axis: Tisza-Danube-Alps at the start of Urnfields expansion outside.

And all three groups expanded in different directions, with little pushes into their fellow Urnfield neighbours territory. Gáva-related Channelled Ware expanded East and South, Middle Danubians in all directions, especially the West Balkans, but not strongly into Gáva territory and Protovillanovans took Italy.

Concerning the Celts: They clearly come from the Western groups of the Tumulus into Urnfield culture tradition and being surely closely connected, but probably not identical, with the Middle Danubians.

I think there can be little doubt that the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture/later Urnfield group was Italo-Celtic Centum speakers. The question is just how close they were to either Celtic and Italic. We probably won't ever know. But R-L2 is a major lineage for the whole Tumulus - Urnfield - Hallstatt sphere and surely involved in the "making of Celts" to some degree.

You mean invading V13 people, why would Tumulus go from inhumation to cremation (Urnfield) just out of the blue. Surely it was V13 elites that invaded Tumulus, that doesn't mean all of previous Tumulus land became V13, in the west still would have been mostly Tumulus ydna but with Urnfield culture/ideologies. Similar to the Romans, they didn't replace all people with their own offspring.

 

[Riverman]

You mean invading V13 people, why would Tumulus go from inhumation to cremation (Urnfield) just out of the blue. Surely it was V13 elites that invaded Tumulus, that doesn't mean all of previous Tumulus land became V13, in the west still would have been mostly Tumulus ydna but with Urnfield culture/ideologies. Similar to the Romans, they didn't replace all people with their own offspring.

Because they had their own religion before, but came into contact with the East Carpathian people, which had a different religion which argued for cremation. Its that simple. We really deal with a mission and mass conversion, not a conquest of the Tumulus culture people. Therefore the spreader were probably E-V13 priests and intellectual elites, rather than warriors - even though those surely did some exchange as well.
That's the point of what I said: Tumulus culture warriors weren't able to conquer the Eastern Carpathian people, but they did integrate them, to some degree, into transregional networks. Once these networks were established, the ideas from the East could spread and apparently they had some good arguments for cremating the dead and other ideological-religious customs, which therefore spread through all the Tumulus culture networks like wildfire.

If you look at most maps, the core of Urnfield was the same as that of the Tumulus culture. Only in the East, with Gáva and in the North East with Lusatians, we find completely new expansion zones.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Because they had their own religion before, but came into contact with the East Carpathian people, which had a different religion which argued for cremation. Its that simple. We really deal with a mission and mass conversion, not a conquest of the Tumulus culture people. Therefore the spreader were probably E-V13 priests and intellectual elites, rather than warriors - even though those surely did some exchange as well.
That's the point of what I said: Tumulus culture warriors weren't able to conquer the Eastern Carpathian people, but they did integrate them, to some degree, into transregional networks. Once these networks were established, the ideas from the East could spread and apparently they had some good arguments for cremating the dead and other ideological-religious customs, which therefore spread through all the Tumulus culture networks like wildfire.

If you look at most maps, the core of Urnfield was the same as that of the Tumulus culture. Only in the East, with Gáva and in the North East with Lusatians, we find completely new expansion zones.

Your theory is possible but throughout history mass religions have almost always been imposed by the elites of the empire or conquerors. Don't forget how quickly empires take anothers land, ottoman took most of byzantine, rashidun caliphate took most of sassanid empire, this is how it has usually been and I wouldn't be surprised if this is also what happened to Tumulus

 

[Riverman]

Your theory is possible but throughout history mass religions have almost always been imposed by the elites of the empire or conquerors

The crucial original transmission was surely peaceful. The religion was spread in many regions by force, but the first transmission happened between former foes (Tumulus culture vs. Carpathian block) through intermediate groups (Carpathian Tumulus culture, Piliny). The evidence is pretty clear about this.

It is not just one item and innovation, but many, which floated in both directions. The religion was just an integral part of it.

 

[Southpaw]

I don't think Carpathian Urnfielders pushed or conquered Tumulus people, it was the other way around, they clashed and pushed the Balkan-Carpathian people further south, it was somewhere in Northern Serbia where very late in EIA where Tumulus people were completely decapitated by Channeled-Ware/Stamped-Ware people. Sort of similar with what happened with Gauls in historical times when Dacians expelled them and massacred them after hundred of years of pushing and expansions of Gauls.

The Tumulus people pushed the Encrusted Pottery People (I2a mainly) more east as well.

Also, it's up yet to see if even E-V13 was on the other side of the Danube, up the northern side during that time.