To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Riverman]

Urnfield cultures were primarily a religious movement. There are different cultures below that large cultural phenomenon of Urnfield and this includes Proto-Celts, as a branch of the Tumulus culture which was converted by the Carpathian basin people. These Carpathian basin people which practised cremation before the Tumulus culture (Italo-Celts) was likely the Proto-Thracians and dominated by E-V13.

MIddle Danubian Urnfield group (= descendants of Danubian Tumulus culture people = R-L2), Proto-Villanovans (= unclear, but probably related to the Venetic people and influencing Etruscans and some Italics), Lusatians (= unclear, but they seem to have had a lot of I2 and R-L51 too), South Eastern Unfield groups (primarily Gáva-related at the LBA = likely E-V13 and Proto-Thracian).

To the North West in Western Germany-Eastern France were different Urnfield groups and those likely were Pre- or Proto-Celtic.

It is absolutely evident that the Tumulus culture people didn't disappear, but just converted when coming into contact with the Carpathian people along the Tisza, where they halted in the MBA-LBA (most Eastern group being Egyek-Carpathian Tumulus culture group). From the influences of the Tumulus culture emerged in the East Gáva and from the opposite influences to the West the other Urnfield groups.

We therfore deal with very different ethnolinguistic groups, even non-IE (like Etruscans) in the Urnfield sphere.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Urnfield cultures were primarily a religious movement. There are different cultures below that large cultural phenomenon of Urnfield and this includes Proto-Celts, as a branch of the Tumulus culture which was converted by the Carpathian basin people. These Carpathian basin people which practised cremation before the Tumulus culture (Italo-Celts) was likely the Proto-Thracians and dominated by E-V13.

MIddle Danubian Urnfield group (= descendants of Danubian Tumulus culture people = R-L2), Proto-Villanovans (= unclear, but probably related to the Venetic people and influencing Etruscans and some Italics), Lusatians (= unclear, but they seem to have had a lot of I2 and R-L51 too), South Eastern Unfield groups (primarily Gáva-related at the LBA = likely E-V13 and Proto-Thracian).

To the North West in Western Germany-Eastern France were different Urnfield groups and those likely were Pre- or Proto-Celtic.

It is absolutely evident that the Tumulus culture people didn't disappear, but just converted when coming into contact with the Carpathian people along the Tisza, where they halted in the MBA-LBA (most Eastern group being Egyek-Carpathian Tumulus culture group). From the influences of the Tumulus culture emerged in the East Gáva and from the opposite influences to the West the other Urnfield groups.

We therfore deal with very different ethnolinguistic groups, even non-IE (like Etruscans) in the Urnfield sphere.

I think some of the Tumulus culture people were pushed west and (a few) south by the proto Urnfielders. We have found mostly i2 in Urnfielders accompanied with the odd r1a which almost debunks my V13 theory so far. This has me thinking about the tollense battle which again was fought by a large group of i2 people and the rare r1a, maybe the battle of tollense was a major Urnfield war and the Urnfield elite weren't V13 but i2?

Tollense battle happened around 1200BC during the period when Urnfield expanded. Around this time Greek dark ages also started and cremating began appeared there too, which again makes me think that Urnfield may have been responsible

 

[Hawk]

I believe Celts had nothing to do with the Urnfield elite (cremators) because they hadn't formed as a unified group yet, they were a western offshoot that later created La Tene. Celts were mostly R1b, meanwhile Urnfield wasn't -

Lichtenstein Cave - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Cannot see how, it's universally accepted by historians, archaeologists that Celto-Gauls should be the most known representatives of Western Urnfielders. Last year we saw results from Knovitz Culture (a variant of Urnfield) from Czech Republic, most of them were R1b.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Cannot see how, it's universally accepted by historians, archaeologists that Celto-Gauls should be the most known representatives of Western Urnfielders. Last year we saw results from Knovitz Culture (a variant of Urnfield) from Czech Republic, most of them were R1b.

It isn't universally accepted, look above.

From the actual Urnfielders we have gotten mostly i2 so far, these R1b were conquered by the Urnfield elite and weren't Celts yet. I think Celts broke away from western Urnfield to create La Tene, the La Tene burials were completely different to Urnfield -

La Tène Era 'Celtic' Burials from France | Irish Archaeology

A number of spectacular La Tène era ‘Celtic’ burials have recently been uncovered by archaeologist working at Buchères in north central France. These exceptional Gaulish graves are rare discovery in this part of France and as the images below show, they represent a truly remarkable find.

irisharchaeology.ie

 

[Riverman]

I think some of the Tumulus culture people were pushed west and (a few) south by the proto Urnfielders. We have found mostly i2 in Urnfielders accompanied with the odd r1a which almost debunks my V13 theory so far. This has me thinking about the tollense battle which again was fought by a large group of i2 people and the rare r1a, maybe the battle of tollense was a major Urnfield war and the Urnfield elite weren't V13 but i2?

Tollense battle happened around 1200BC during the period when Urnfield expanded. Around this time Greek dark ages also started and cremating began appeared there too, which again makes me think that Urnfield may have been responsible

We know the Danubian groups were R-L2 before (Tumulus culture) and afterwards (Hallstatt). Also we got data from Knoviz and they were R-L51/R-L2 too, with just a bit of I2, presumably from the Lusatians.

The Lusatians likely have I2, R-L51 and R-Z283. Whether they got a minority of E-V13 in some areas in which Gáva settled is unclear and obviously related to what Northern Gáva in Transcarpathia and Eastern Slovakia looks like as well.

The Tollense group was likely from a specific context, yet even they got their contacts to the Beaker side of things R-L51 individuals either as opponents or allies.

 

[TetaEglantina]

We know the Danubian groups were R-L2 before (Tumulus culture) and afterwards (Hallstatt). Also we got data from Knoviz and they were R-L51/R-L2 too, with just a bit of I2, presumably from the Lusatians.

The Lusatians likely have I2, R-L51 and R-Z283. Whether they got a minority of E-V13 in some areas in which Gáva settled is unclear and obviously related to what Northern Gáva in Transcarpathia and Eastern Slovakia looks like as well.

The Tollense group was likely from a specific context, yet even they got their contacts to the Beaker side of things R-L51 individuals either as opponents or allies.

Tumulus people had nothing to do with the Urnfield elite who brought a completely new burial rite. Early Hallstatt was mostly cremation as it formed from western Urnfield, late Hallstatt moved away from cremation to inhumation and founded La Tene (Celtic).

Lusatians were Urnfielders -
"It is contemporaneous with the Urnfield culture that is found from eastern France via southern Germany and Austria to Hungary and the Nordic Bronze Age in northwestern Germany and Scandinavia. It is followed by the early Iron Age Billendorf culture in the West. In Poland, the Lusatian culture is taken to span part of the Iron Age as well (the is only a terminological difference) and is succeeded by the Pommeranian culture. Burial was by cremation; inhumations are rare. The urn is usually accompanied by numerous (up to 40) secondary vessels. Metal grave gifts are sparse, but there are numerous hoards (such as Kopaniewo, Pomerania) that contain rich metalwork, both bronze and gold (hoard of Eberswalde, Brandenburg)."

We should be looking at the possibility that Lusatians were the proto Urnfielders/elites as they were always cremating.

"The origins of the cremation rite are commonly believed to be in Hungary, where it was widespread since the first half of the second millennium BC.[6] The neolithic Cucuteni–Trypillia culture of modern-day northeastern Romania and Ukraine were also practicing cremation rituals as early as approximately 5500 BC. Some cremations begin to be found in the Proto-Lusatian and Trzciniec culture."

"The pottery shows strong links to the Gáva culture, but in the later phases, a strong influence of the Lusatian culture is found. In Italy the late Bronze Age Canegrate and Proto-Villanovan cultures and the early Iron Age Villanovan culture show similarities with the urnfields of central Europe. Urnfields are found in the French Languedoc and Catalonia from the 9th to 8th centuries. The change in burial custom was most probably influenced by developments further east."

 

[Riverman]

Gáva was also sometimes called Lusatian-like or Protovillanovan-like, so similar are some of the potteries. But we deal, very clearly, with different people and ethnicities. Again, Urnfield was multi-ethnic and therefore we can expect different haplogroups in different provinces. It depends on the exact region in question whether mass migration was involved or not. E.g. Belegis-Gáva expanded into the Balkans with a mass migration. There were migrations from Lusatians to the North and East etc. However, it is absolutely clear that in the Middle Danube central group local Tumulus culture people did just convert - that doesn't mean some priests or missionaries didn't move from the East Carpathians, but it was no mass movement or settlement.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Gáva was also sometimes called Lusatian-like or Protovillanovan-like, so similar are some of the potteries. But we deal, very clearly, with different people and ethnicities. Again, Urnfield was multi-ethnic and therefore we can expect different haplogroups in different provinces. It depends on the exact region in question whether mass migration was involved or not. E.g. Belegis-Gáva expanded into the Balkans with a mass migration. There were migrations from Lusatians to the North and East etc. However, it is absolutely clear that in the Middle Danube central group local Tumulus culture people did just convert - that doesn't mean some priests or missionaries didn't move from the East Carpathians, but it was no mass movement or settlement.

Do you believe the tollense battle was an Urnfield war? It was around the time when Urnfield was expanding throughout Europe

 

[Siegmund]

It isn't universally accepted, look above.

From the actual Urnfielders we have gotten mostly i2 so far, these R1b were conquered by the Urnfield elite and weren't Celts yet. I think Celts broke away from western Urnfield to create La Tene, the La Tene burials were completely different to Urnfield -

La Tène Era 'Celtic' Burials from France | Irish Archaeology

A number of spectacular La Tène era ‘Celtic’ burials have recently been uncovered by archaeologist working at Buchères in north central France. These exceptional Gaulish graves are rare discovery in this part of France and as the images below show, they represent a truly remarkable find.

irisharchaeology.ie

Do you mind to share these I2 samples? Thank you!

 

[Riverman]

Do you believe the tollense battle was an Urnfield war? It was around the time when Urnfield was expanding throughout Europe

Yes, I think that the Lusatians with their Western and Eastern Urnfield allies, even mercenaries, tried to invade the North. We don't know for sure though, since this would imply practically no one from the attackers on the column was found. Therefore there are two possible scenarios, one of with this wide range of people from the Urnfield alliance, the other that Lusatians attacked a column of Western Urnfield people.
Keep in mind that most of the dead along the river were caught in a kind of a trap, many died due to arrows which rained on them from the flanks. Therefore it is expected that more people from the surprise attacked column will have ended up in the river and only a small portion of the total territory was excavated, even less tested. So there might be a single attacker here or there left, which hasn't been tested yet, if the Urnfield alliance scenario is correct.

It is however remarkable that we can distinguish three groups in Tollense:
- Western Urnfielders, Tumulus culture derived
- Central-North Eastern Urnfielders, Lusatians
- Urnfield Eastern periphery with Baltoslavic shifted profiles, likley allies/mercenaries called in by Lusatians from the Eastern fringe of their territory.

Whether these were allies or foes (West vs. East) is undecided as far as I can tell. To prove the alliance theory, one would need to find a 4th group, probably associated with the Nordic Bronze Age population.

 

[eupator]

Can someone give me the TLDR on the ev13 drama, I can't follow.

I know riverman is hell-bent on europeanising it since it's his haplo and he doesn't like the southern origins but I can't understand why the Albanian members are being combatant to each other.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Riverman]

Can someone give me the TLDR on the ev13 drama, I can't follow.

I know riverman is hell-bent on europeanising it since it's his haplo and he doesn't like the southern origins but I can't understand why the Albanian members are being combatant to each other.

Thank you in advance.

E-L618. the ancestor of E-V13 was likely spread by Neolithic migrants with Impresso-Cardial people. So its origin is Southern, in the Neolithic period, that's beyond doubt in my opinion.

In the Middle Neolithic however, we find E-L618 along the Danube and in Tripolye-Cucuteni, also in Varna, Bulgaria. What's in the middle? The Eastern Carpathian basin.

These Middle Neolithic people were incorporated into the Cotofeni horizon and this is where E-V13 likely survived. Even Cotofeni was a Carpatho-Balkan phenomenon, so not clearly restricted to just the Carpathian basin or the Northern Balkans.

And fact is: We have now many of the more Southern candidates tested, and they all ended up with different haplogroups. At the same time the E-V13 by the Middle Bronze Age was huge, it was already among the top ranked haplogroups of Europe percentage wise. So there is no way it could have been hidden somewhere in a valley or corner of the Balkans, but it had to occupy and inhabit a fairly large space.

Here it gets interesting because the only large group still not tested is the cremating Carpatho-Balkan block, from which Gáva, Belegis-Gáva and more generally Channelled Ware and the Thracian Hallstatt groups emerged. This is also the direct link to later Daco-Thracian people in the historical period, which stem from these groups.

So the reason I'm going for Channelled Ware is because its the only logical candidate remaining. Its successor in largely the same territory is Stamped Pottery and the Psenichevo and Basarabi cultures. And the E-V13 samples from Bulgaria are post-Psenichevo, whereas earlier samples from cultures in Bulgaria yielded different profiles and haplogroups.

Psenichevo came up from Knobbed Ware, which in turn is a Channelled Ware variant (first pottery of this kind was found in the Upper Tisza zone, in the Gáva culture). And Bulgaria was largely covered by cremating groups in the LBA, groups which were at least related to Gáva and Belegis II-Gáva.

Gáva/Channelled Ware is the most Southern influenced of the Urnfield groups, its predecessors had close ties to the Aegean and we know that people from Gáva moved to the Aegean even before the Sea Peoples/Mycenaean collapse. Likely as traders and mercenaries. We know that from finds in Transylvania, which were interpreted as personal belongings.

That means they know where they were going, when they moved through the Morava-Vardar valleys, as the Belegis II-Gáva people did and being attested archaeologically.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Do you mind to share these I2 samples? Thank you!

haplotree.info - ancientdna.info. Map based on All Ancient DNA v. 2.07.26.

Sort by year and go to 2800, also have a look at tollense battle samples at 3200

 

[TetaEglantina]

Yes, I think that the Lusatians with their Western and Eastern Urnfield allies, even mercenaries, tried to invade the North. We don't know for sure though, since this would imply practically no one from the attackers on the column was found. Therefore there are two possible scenarios, one of with this wide range of people from the Urnfield alliance, the other that Lusatians attacked a column of Western Urnfield people.
Keep in mind that most of the dead along the river were caught in a kind of a trap, many died due to arrows which rained on them from the flanks. Therefore it is expected that more people from the surprise attacked column will have ended up in the river and only a small portion of the total territory was excavated, even less tested. So there might be a single attacker here or there left, which hasn't been tested yet, if the Urnfield alliance scenario is correct.

It is however remarkable that we can distinguish three groups in Tollense:
- Western Urnfielders, Tumulus culture derived
- Central-North Eastern Urnfielders, Lusatians
- Urnfield Eastern periphery with Baltoslavic shifted profiles, likley allies/mercenaries called in by Lusatians from the Eastern fringe of their territory.

Whether these were allies or foes (West vs. East) is undecided as far as I can tell. To prove the alliance theory, one would need to find a 4th group, probably associated with the Nordic Bronze Age population.

I agree with you that it was an Urnfield related war but I think it was more simple than this. It was likely a majority i2 Urnfield invasion/attack from the south on locals or nordic rebels who refused their rule/terms -

"Kristiansen says this period seems to have been an era of significant upheaval from the Mediterranean to the Baltic. In Greece, the sophisticated Mycenaean civilization collapsed around the time of the Tollense battle; in Egypt, pharaohs boasted of besting the "Sea People," marauders from far-off lands who toppled the neighboring Hittites. And not long after Tollense, the scattered farmsteads of northern Europe gave way to concentrated, heavily fortified settlements, once seen only to the south. "Around 1200 B.C.E. there's a radical change in the direction societies and cultures are heading," Vandkilde says. "Tollense fits into a period when we have increased warfare everywhere."

 

[Denxz]

I didn't say olive oil is brumi, though you definitely can make bread with olive oil, just ask gjergj on this.
I said excine and brumi are the same, and likely strabio as well. Hawk has issues with the idea of a E-V13 person being an absolute cuck and having J2b-L283 envy. Losers and cucks do exits, and he is the tribal chief of his upset boys here, which makes this even more comical(alpha cuck and his beta cucks, what a team). Excine doxxed himself, posted family photos, clan name and haplogroup. So either excine is a decoy account(created for no purpose) or brumi is excine himself.

And yeah he has been embarrassed, I agree with you fellas.

That kid is incompetent buddy, should see on an Albanian forum where he claims Kosova is Serbian and compares Albanians in Kosove to Jews in Palestine or where he claims Albanians did not inhabit the Nish-Presheva area until the 18th century. lol . I'd advice this kiddo to stick to the things he knows. Also lol @ anyone being insecure about your own y-dna like this kiddo is. Even more funny, this kid is from Northern Albania or North-East Albania, an area where J-L283 peaks.


As for this Romanian troll who complains about me creating socks on the Apecity, I did it on purpose to spam that place, I despise the people in that place and words cannot describe it.

 

[Denxz]

There are obvious arguments based on registers from the 15th and 16th century, sources from the 16th-17th century describing the people inhabiting these areas as Albanian, and placenames and even how some of the town names developed that shows Albanian speakers certainly did not arrive there only in the 18th century. Naissus -> Nish , Scupi -> Shkup ... these and many others do not have a Slavic intermediary.

 

[ioas]

That kid is incompetent buddy, should see on an Albanian forum where he claims Kosova is Serbian and compares Albanians in Kosove to Jews in Palestine or where he claims Albanians did not inhabit the Nish-Presheva area until the 18th century. lol . I'd advice this kiddo to stick to the things he knows. Also lol @ anyone being insecure about your own y-dna like this kiddo is. Even more funny, this kid is from Northern Albania or North-East Albania, an area where J-L283 peaks.


As for this Romanian troll who complains about me creating socks on the Apecity, I did it on purpose to spam that place, I despise the people in that place and words cannot describe it.

Yeah I am the evil Romanian troll haunting your dreams muhaha. I am being serious now. why do you care so much about what a bunch of randos say on Internet ? If you hate what they are saying so much, just ignore them . you don't have to make a million accounts or harass people to prove them wrong

 

[Hawk]

I agree with you that it was an Urnfield related war but I think it was more simple than this. It was likely a majority i2 Urnfield invasion/attack from the south on locals or nordic rebels who refused their rule/terms -

"Kristiansen says this period seems to have been an era of significant upheaval from the Mediterranean to the Baltic. In Greece, the sophisticated Mycenaean civilization collapsed around the time of the Tollense battle; in Egypt, pharaohs boasted of besting the "Sea People," marauders from far-off lands who toppled the neighboring Hittites. And not long after Tollense, the scattered farmsteads of northern Europe gave way to concentrated, heavily fortified settlements, once seen only to the south. "Around 1200 B.C.E. there's a radical change in the direction societies and cultures are heading," Vandkilde says. "Tollense fits into a period when we have increased warfare everywhere."

Urnfield was not a single unit of people, ruled by one elite, it was various different people that shared some common cultural values. You probably had I2 among Lusatians and Pannonian plain among Encrusted Pottery People who might be considered in a way Proto-Urnfield, yeah, like Vatya, Kisapostag Culture, Nagyrev, Hatvan.

But, the Tumulus descended people with R1b-L51, R1b-L2 (related subclades) are Urnfield too, and probably one of the core cataclysm, since the Naue precursor swords were Tumulus thing. Worth noting that it is these people who caused the decline of I2 rise in Pannonian Plain. When they migrated crossed the Alps toward Pannonia/Carpathian Basin.

I do believe that R1b-L51, R1b-L2, various I2 subclade, G2a, some R1a, and E-V13 in the South-East was what composed of Urnfield-Hallstatt complex.

 

[Hawk]

Yeah I am the evil Romanian troll haunting your dreams muhaha. I am being serious now. why do you care so much about what a bunch of randos say on Internet ? If you hate what they are saying so much, just ignore them . you don't have to make a million accounts or harass people to prove them wrong

The mind's state is what you feed, that dude is full of dumb and negative aura around him, allow him to drag you in his domain and you'll get as him. Just ignore him.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Urnfield was not a single unit of people, ruled by one elite, it was various different people that shared some common cultural values. You probably had I2 among Lusatians and Pannonian plain among Encrusted Pottery People who might be considered in a way Proto-Urnfield, yeah, like Vatya, Kisapostag Culture, Nagyrev, Hatvan.

But, the Tumulus descended people with R1b-L51, R1b-L2 (related subclades) are Urnfield too, and probably one of the core cataclysm, since the Naue precursor swords were Tumulus thing. Worth noting that it is these people who caused the decline of I2 rise in Pannonian Plain. When they migrated crossed the Alps toward Pannonia/Carpathian Basin.

I do believe that R1b-L51, R1b-L2, various I2 subclade, G2a, some R1a, and E-V13 in the South-East was what composed of Urnfield-Hallstatt complex.

From the current samples we have majority of Urnfielders or proto Urnfield leaders/elite have turned out i2. These people (Vatya, proto Lusatians) were already cremating before Urnfield expanded

I'm sure a lot of r1b became Urnfielders too but it clearly started originally in central/north europe (Pannonia, Hungary, Austria etc) and expanded westward (France, Italy etc) where majority was r1b at the time.

Look at this conclusive evidence -
https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient...lotree_Variant&searchfor=I-L1229&ybp=500000,0

Vatya culture -
Six individuals from the Százhalombatta-Földvár and Erd sites were analized, Y-DNA haplogroup I was found in an individual, having the other two males the derived clades I2a2a1 and I2a2a1a2a. Mithocondrial DNA was varied: H2a1, J1c9, H11a, T1a1, T2b, and U5a2a.