Turks with 10 - 25% Mongoloid admixture ( Turkish people autosomal DNA )

[Boreas]

Most of the rums (citizen of Rome, not greek!!!) in trabzon don't have the greek ancestor, their ancestors were autochtones people of the area. They might have mostly caucasian and indo-iranic origins. After the colonization of the region by teh Empire of Trebizond (Roma), they were coerced to be christians. In this process, their language shifted to greek. By the same token, this is valid for some of the people in the region who speak armenian and turkish language.

Finally, we can clearly say that, most of them do not have greek, armenian and turk origin, but have caucasian and iranic origin.

Greeks history in Trabzon is older then Chrisitanity. You can read "Anabasis" (Xenophon) to learn more about that it.

There was Capadoccian Rum in the forum, but there is no Rum from Pontus. Logically, they should have more Caucausian admixture as you said.

 

[cylnlts]

The Greek colonies in the black sea region began to dry up before the 8th century, but never as active as the Aegean region. However, Tbilisi has established an intermediate station for ships going to northern Caucasus cities such as Batumi gi. For the Greeks, the Black Sea remained a strange foreign geography for a long time. This situation changed later and progressed to the independence of the Pontus region. The destiny of the Cappadocia region is mostly dependent on the pontus region, which means that it is an ethnic and cultural union between the two regions. For example, if I am Cappadocia, the effect of the Eastern Black Sea on genetic engineering is consistent with the history of the region.

 

[Sakattack]

Greeks history in Trabzon is older then Chrisitanity. You can read "Anabasis" (Xenophon) to learn more about that it.

There was Capadoccian Rum in the forum, but there is no Rum from Pontus. Logically, they should have more Caucausian admixture as you said.

I think you are referring to me

What you say is indeed true, the Pontus region received Greek settlements long time ago, since the 2ng Greek Colonisation (8th-6th cBC).

The area - like the whole Anatolia - received massively settlers after Alexanders era and was completely Hellenized (both genetically but mostly linguistically and culturally) at some point, around the 1st century AD.

Pontus is indeed connected with Cappadocia, because of proximity.

As for genetics, I've seen some results of Azov Greeks and they tend to score more Caucasian. They plot somehow in the middle of the other Anatolian Greeks and the Caucasian modern people. That means that of course they absorbed a very significant amount of local genes and also probably intermarried with Armenians, who where also Christian and lived really close. They lack also completely, the Turkish admixture (east and central Asian components) like the vast majority of Anatolian Greeks.

 

[Boreas]

I think you are referring to me

What you say is indeed true, the Pontus region received Greek settlements long time ago, since the 2ng Greek Colonisation (8th-6th cBC).

The area - like the whole Anatolia - received massively settlers after Alexanders era and was completely Hellenized (both genetically but mostly linguistically and culturally) at some point, around the 1st century AD.

Pontus is indeed connected with Cappadocia, because of proximity.

As for genetics, I've seen some results of Azov Greeks and they tend to score more Caucasian. They plot somehow in the middle of the other Anatolian Greeks and the Caucasian modern people. That means that of course they absorbed a very significant amount of local genes and also probably intermarried with Armenians, who where also Christian and lived really close. They lack also completely, the Turkish admixture (east and central Asian components) like the vast majority of Anatolian Greeks.

I have skipped that. Now I remember that you were also Greek. Please send some Azov Greeks result with yours of course. Capadoccians are a bit similar with Greeks in Cypres. What about Azov and Pontus, How similar are they?

 

[Sakattack]

I have skipped that. Now I remember that you were also Greek. Please send some Azov Greeks result with yours of course. Capadoccians are a bit similar with Greeks in Cypres. What about Azov and Pontus, How similar are they?

By Azov Greeks, I mean Pontic Greeks. I have no drafts of their results, but it's easy to access them in some forums etc. They score high caucasus, that's for sure.

As for Cappadocian Greeks, I have not seen anyone elses results except mine, unfortunately (I mean 100% Cap. Greek). In fact I plot closer to Cretans than Cypriots (which are usually my second best reference pop).

 

[Sile]

I think you are referring to me

What you say is indeed true, the Pontus region received Greek settlements long time ago, since the 2ng Greek Colonisation (8th-6th cBC).

The area - like the whole Anatolia - received massively settlers after Alexanders era and was completely Hellenized (both genetically but mostly linguistically and culturally) at some point, around the 1st century AD.

Pontus is indeed connected with Cappadocia, because of proximity.

As for genetics, I've seen some results of Azov Greeks and they tend to score more Caucasian. They plot somehow in the middle of the other Anatolian Greeks and the Caucasian modern people. That means that of course they absorbed a very significant amount of local genes and also probably intermarried with Armenians, who where also Christian and lived really close. They lack also completely, the Turkish admixture (east and central Asian components) like the vast majority of Anatolian Greeks.

The supposed origin of the Cimmerians north of the Caucasus at the end of the Bronze Age loosely corresponds with the early Koban culture (Northern Caucasus, 12th to 4th centuries BC), but there is no compelling reason to associate this culture with the Cimmerians specifically.^[6]

The first record of the Cimmerians appears in Assyrian annals in the year 714 BC. These describe how a people termed the Gimirri helped the forces of Sargon II to defeat the kingdom of Urartu. Their original homeland, called Gamir or Uish desh, seems to have been located within the buffer state of Mannae. The later geographer Ptolemy placed the Cimmerian city of Gomara in this region. The Assyrians recorded the migrations of the Cimmerians, as the former people's king Sargon II was killed in battle against them while driving them from Persia in 705 BC.

There are no further mentions of them in historical sources, but it is likely that they settled in Cappadocia.^[1]


http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/cimmerians-nomads

 

[Sakattack]

True that Sile.

Cimmerians, Hittites probably Sumerians and some Gauls were some of the known pops of the area before the Greeks.

 

[unamuno]

Greeks history in Trabzon is older then Chrisitanity. You can read "Anabasis" (Xenophon) to learn more about that it.

There was Capadoccian Rum in the forum, but there is no Rum from Pontus. Logically, they should have more Caucausian admixture as you said.

I have read anabasis million times , and i saw that there were only minor greek colonies on the shore and in the castles. But, most of the people lived there, mountainous and inner part of the region, were not ethnically greek...

By the way, have you seen the admixture or ydna results of current trabzon? What do they tell you, do they look like greek?

 

[Boreas]

I have read anabasis million times , and i saw that there were only minor greek colonies on the shore and in the castles. But, most of the people lived there, mountainous and inner part of the region, were not ethnically greek...

By the way, have you seen the admixture or ydna results of current trabzon? What do they tell you, do they look like greek?

After the population exchange, Basicly 20% of Greece became Anatolian.

So you can find similar modern Greek people in Greece with Trabzon people.

But Ofcourse Ancient Greeks admixture is limited.

If you have some Trabzon people result, please share

 

[unamuno]

Dear Boreas,
When you compare a result of a person from trabzon, who has rum origins (not greek), with a real greek from greece (not an immigrant from trabzon), you will see that pontic rums more Caucausian than all other definitions. If you wonder the results of trabzon, please visit the trabzon group in ftdna...

 

[Boreas]

Dear Boreas,
When you compare a result of a person from trabzon, who has rum origins (not greek), with a real greek from greece (not an immigrant from trabzon), you will see that pontic rums more Caucausian than all other definitions. If you wonder the results of trabzon, please visit the trabzon group in ftdna...

Why you try to show that I said something more different then you???

My words from previous post
"they should have more Caucausian admixture as you said."

and not just Pontus Greeks also Cappadocian Greeks are more Caucausain then Mainland Greek types.

Btw I can't join all groups in different genetic website, if you know something, share. Otherwise, your words will be letters on the water.

 

[unamuno]

İt is not about only caucasian admixture. When you compare a Pontus rum with a greek, you will realize that they are genetically completely different. And may be you can realize that, they are autochtone people of the region, not greek.

 

[Sakattack]

İt is not about only caucasian admixture. When you compare a Pontus rum with a greek, you will realize that they are genetically completely different. And may be you can realize that, they are autochtone people of the region, not greek.

When you realize that you should cross around 1500km west from Trabzon just to enter the modern far north East Greek border, when you realize how far is this area from mainland Greece, when you just take a moment and think for how many centuries these people lived there, with almost no contact to the mainlanders, when you realize that this dialect that they STILL speak is the oldest Greek dialect alive with many many ancient elements in it, when you take in consideration that the mainlanders went though other kind of genetic influence all these centuries (Slavs, Vlachs, Arvanite, Venetians, Genoans, Franks, Jews etc) and in the meantime they absorbed genetic material from the locals and their neighbors... etc etc

then MAYBE you realize what are you taking about. Of course they gonna have genetic distance with the mainlanders, what do you expect?

You can't just label people as you... wish. These people born and raised for more than 2,5 THOUSAND years like Greeks, speaking the Greek language and embracing the Greek culture. They self-identify as Pontic Greeks. And you are coming now to tell them what? "Hey, guys, you look kinda different with some other Greeks that had been living 2 thousand km southwest for circa 2 thousand years?". Wow, what a blowup!

The term Greek, is in any case very wide.

Sent from my Robin

 

[unamuno]

You can't just label people as you... wish. These people born and raised for more than 2,5 THOUSAND years like Greeks, speaking the Greek language and embracing the Greek culture. They self-identify as Pontic Greeks.

Yes, you should be careful,though, when you say these people historically greek. First, their mainland is not greece, and their dialect is not ancient dialect of greek. Their homeland is south caucasia and their language is a mixture of greek with their natıve caucasian languages. Just like their current turkish dialects. And they began to speak this dialect in a more recent time compared to 2,5 thousand years. They learned and began to speak this language after they had been christianized. If this is enough to say that these people are historically and genetically greek, we can also say these people are turk.

Counsciousness of a nation is a thing, history and genetics are different things.

 

[Sakattack]

Yes, you should be careful,though, when you say these people historically greek. First, their mainland is not greece, and their dialect is not ancient dialect of greek. Their homeland is south caucasia and their language is a mixture of greek with their natıve caucasian languages. Just like their current turkish dialects. And they began to speak this dialect in a more recent time compared to 2,5 thousand years. They learned and began to speak this language after they had been christianized. If this is enough to say that these people are historically and genetically greek, we can also say these people are turk.

Counsciousness of a nation is a thing, history and genetics are different things.

There was no Greece before 1830. So the... mainland argument is invalid.
"Greece" was where Greeks were living.

Their language is Greek 101% and retained many archaisms till nowadays. It is not any kind of mix. They have some Turkish nouns though.

Sent from my Robin

 

[cylnlts]

My photos caucasoid turkic georgian or armenian

 

[unamuno]

There was no Greece before 1830. So the... mainland argument is invalid.
"Greece" was where Greeks were living.

Their language is Greek 101% and retained many archaisms till nowadays. It is not any kind of mix. They have some Turkish nouns though.

Sent from my Robin

)))

1) thesis of common language and its so called ancient dialects are not enough and suitable criteria to talk about historical facts and genetics. Because language shifting due to converting religion is a common phenemona during the history.

2) in fact, you say that "greece was where Greeks invaded." while ignoring the effects of autochtone people of the region.

 

[Seanp]

İt is not about only caucasian admixture. When you compare a Pontus rum with a greek, you will realize that they are genetically completely different. And may be you can realize that, they are autochtone people of the region, not greek.

Genetic and identity are two different things. People first and foremost identity themselves based on cultural traditions and historical knowledge. There's no evidence those people living in Greece are more or less Greek than anyone living in the diaspora regions. Hellenes since the beginning were heterogeneous in terms of origin.
Some tribes came from the North while some were native to Asia Minor and those people likely the direct ancestors of Pontians.

If Turks didn't invade Anatolia and "Turkify" the millions of natives including Greeks then most parts of Anatolia would be part of the Greek state as most Turks in the Western part at least are straight descendants of Greeks, Trojans and other Greek related ethnic groups who all share a similar linguistics and genetic origin and barely has any "Mongol" heritage unlike the leaders of Turks who invaded and raped the natives.

 

[Sakattack]

)))

1) thesis of common language and its so called ancient dialects are not enough and suitable criteria to talk about historical facts and genetics. Because language shifting due to converting religion is a common phenemona during the history.

2) in fact, you say that "greece was where Greeks invaded." while ignoring the effects of autochtone people of the region.

1) We are not talking only about language though. Language is very important cretirium to tag "ethnicity" to some pop though, but it's not the only one in the case of the PonticGreeks. Historical events such as the 2nd Greek colonisation, the establishment of many Greek cities in the area, the conquer of the whole Anatolia by Alexander, the subsequent - Greek based- Byzantine empire are hard facts in their case. They have long long journey through the Greek history.
To come back to the language issue, you are wrong if you think that their language shifted (by whom?) through... relegion. No. These people are Greek speaking form the very beginning and they still are. Their language had been influenced and of course changed through time, but it's incredible how close it is to ancient Greek, by retaining many archaisms, that are extinct in all the other Greek dialects.

2) As for invasions: I said ""Greece" was where the Greeks used to live". And Greeks used to live in many places, from South Italy to Cyprus and from Egypt to Pontus. Mainland Greece and Asia Minor had been for the most period their core lands though. The only "invasion" that the Greeks made in their long history, is the one of Alexander's (there is also the Trojan war which is mythologically based and in any case was only a war and not a conquer).

There are some other neighbors with a long tradition in invasions, imperialistic wars, destructions, undoing and pillage. Better ask them.


Oh, wait...

Sent from my Robin

 

[unamuno]

Genetic and identity are two different things. People first and foremost identity themselves based on cultural traditions and historical knowledge. There's no evidence those people living in Greece are more or less Greek than anyone living in the diaspora regions. Hellenes since the beginning were heterogeneous in terms of origin.
Some tribes came from the North while some were native to Asia Minor and those people likely the direct ancestors of Pontians.

If Turks didn't invade Anatolia and "Turkify" the millions of natives including Greeks then most parts of Anatolia would be part of the Greek state as most Turks in the Western part at least are straight descendants of Greeks, Trojans and other Greek related ethnic groups who all share a similar linguistics and genetic origin and barely has any "Mongol" heritage unlike the leaders of Turks who invaded and raped the natives.

Dear seanp;

Sorry, but this is hypocrisy. Today, almost all of people living in Trabzon, identify themselves as Turk. As far as I know, they are more turkish nationalist compared to ethnic turks. According to your post, nobody claim that they are pontic greek, most of them speak turkish as mother Tongue, and their culture closer to the peoples of the region, Lazs, hemsinites, georgians and turks, compared to a greek. Should we say, pontic turk?

Finally, have you ever read something about ancient history of the region, except anabasis? Do you have some info about christianization process of the region? When you have, you may not blame others for the things what you had done before...