Turks with 10 - 25% Mongoloid admixture ( Turkish people autosomal DNA )

[Sakattack]

Dear seanp;

Sorry, but this is hypocrisy. Today, almost all of people living in Trabzon, identify themselves as Turk. As far as I know, they are more turkish nationalist compared to ethnic turks. According to your post, nobody claim that they are pontic greek, most of them speak turkish as mother Tongue, and their culture closer to the peoples of the region, Lazs, hemsinites, georgians and turks, compared to a greek. Should we say, pontic turk?

If you consider that more than a million of Pontic Greeks have been extermited by Kemal and that around 500.000 thousand have been flown to Greece at 1922-24, it's a miracle that there are still some (few) Greek speakers in the area, even if they are Muslims.

So, no, when we are taking about Pontic Greeks now, we are talking about people who reside in modern day Greece via refugia, don't mess it up.

Sent from my Robin

 

[unamuno]

If you consider that more than a million of Pontic Greeks have been extermited by Kemal and that around 500.000 thousand have been flown to Greece at 1922-24, it's a miracle that there are still some (few) Greek speakers in the area, even if they are Muslims.

So, no, when we are taking about Pontic Greeks now, we are talking about people who reside in modern day Greece via refugia, don't mess it up.

Sent from my Robin

My first message is about so called anatolians of greek descent. And my assertion is that their ancestors were not greek, they had been living in the region before Greeks came to the region.

So do not mess it up.

 

[Sakattack]

My first message is about so called anatolians of greek descent. And my assertion is that their ancestors were not greek, they had been living in the region before Greeks came to the region.

So do not mess it up.

And you are wrong.

Sent from my Robin

 

[unamuno]

And you are wrong.

Sent from my Robin

)) According to what/whom? To you and your nationalistic viewpoint?

 

[unamuno]

If you consider that more than a million of Pontic Greeks have been extermited by Kemal and that around 500.000 thousand have been flown to Greece at 1922-24, it's a miracle that there are still some (few) Greek speakers in the area, even if they are Muslims.

1- they were not exterminated by the kemal, it was the result of a mutual aggrement. This aggrement also included the turkish natıve speakers who were orthodox Christian.
2- 500.000 thousand ))
3- special knowledge for you. Most of the Greek speakers who live in the region today called themselves as Turk. It would not be false to say that they are the most turkish nationalist people of the turkey..

 

[Angela]

Fewer insults, gentlemen, or I'm going to have to intervene.

@unamuno,
I'd also mention that opinions unsupported by data aren't at all persuasive. We try to keep discussions here fact based.

 

[Seanp]

Dear seanp;

Sorry, but this is hypocrisy. Today, almost all of people living in Trabzon, identify themselves as Turk. As far as I know, they are more turkish nationalist compared to ethnic turks. According to your post, nobody claim that they are pontic greek, most of them speak turkish as mother Tongue, and their culture closer to the peoples of the region, Lazs, hemsinites, georgians and turks, compared to a greek. Should we say, pontic turk?

Finally, have you ever read something about ancient history of the region, except anabasis? Do you have some info about christianization process of the region? When you have, you may not blame others for the things what you had done before...

Most people in Eastern Turkey doesn't identify as Turkish, even if by political correctness they will call themselves as "Turkish" as long as they have the pressure upon them. Most will identity as Kurdish and other minorities.

Turkey was only able to maintain it's borders by open aggression and still does it against minorities, despite being part of the UN. Turkey sympathizes with Israel to defend Kurdish militants from the South in order to prevent the possibility that Eastern Turkey lose it's dependence and become a Kurdish state which it should be.

 

[Sakattack]

1- they were not exterminated by the kemal, it was the result of a mutual aggrement. This aggrement also included the turkish natıve speakers who were orthodox Christian.
2- 500.000 thousand ))
3- special knowledge for you. Most of the Greek speakers who live in the region today called themselves as Turk. It would not be false to say that they are the most turkish nationalist people of the turkey..

1. It's another thing the pop exchange (500.000 Pontic Greeks sent as refugees to the Greek State) and another thing the extermination. The Genocide of the Greeks (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide?wprov=sfla1) by the Neoturks targeted all the Greeks in Anatolia but had a bigger impact on the Pontians, who counted more than 500.000 victims.
2. Typo. Very funny to point that out. Congrats.
3. It's not certain, apply to some, don't apply to some others. But in any case, I repeat that when we are taking about Pontic Greeks, we are referring to the Pontians that came after the population exchange in Greece. If you want to talk about the people of PonticGreek descent in modern day Turkey, it's a completely different subject.

Sent from my Robin

 

[unamuno]

1. It's another thing the pop exchange (500.000 Pontic Greeks sent as refugees to the Greek State) and another thing the extermination. The Genocide of the Greeks (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide?wprov=sfla1) by the Neoturks targeted all the Greeks in Anatolia but had a bigger impact on the Pontians, who counted more than 500.000 victims.
2. Typo. Very funny to point that out. Congrats.
3. It's not certain, apply to some, don't apply to some others. But in any case, I repeat that when we are taking about Pontic Greeks, we are referring to the Pontians that came after the population exchange in Greece. If you want to talk about the people of PonticGreek descent in modern day Turkey, it's a completely different subject.

Sent from my Robin

"According to George W. Rendel of the British Foreign Office, by 1918 "...over 500,000 Greeks were deported of whom comparatively few survived." In his memoirs, the United States ambassador to the Ottoman Empire between 1913 and 1916 wrote "Everywhere the Greeks were gathered in groups and, under the so-called protection of Turkish gendarmes, they were transported, the larger part on foot, into the interior. Just how many were scattered in this fashion is not definitely known, the estimates varying anywhere from 200,000 up to 1,000,000."

Where is the m. Kemal? This refers to pre m.kemal era...

Don t say typo again ))

 

[Sakattack]

"According to George W. Rendel of the British Foreign Office, by 1918 "...over 500,000 Greeks were deported of whom comparatively few survived." In his memoirs, the United States ambassador to the Ottoman Empire between 1913 and 1916 wrote "Everywhere the Greeks were gathered in groups and, under the so-called protection of Turkish gendarmes, they were transported, the larger part on foot, into the interior. Just how many were scattered in this fashion is not definitely known, the estimates varying anywhere from 200,000 up to 1,000,000."

Where is the m. Kemal? This refers to pre m.kemal era...

Don t say typo again ))

Read the wiki article that I posted above. It's about the Greek Genocide by the Neoturks of Kemal. It started around 1908 and exterminated about a million Greeks. It was part of the "cleansing" of the infidels inside Turkey (new term at that time). The Armenian Genocide happened at the same period.

In the meantime and before 1922 we have the Greek campaign in Asia Minor, several treaties and border changes and finally we end to the Catastrophe of Smyrna at 1922. After that the population exchange agreement.

The population exchange, also, included about 1,5 million Greeks in Anatolia (and about 500,000 Muslims in Greece). You can read about it everywhere, easily accesible. But that's another story, which you mess up. Obviously history was not one of your strengths. What you posted is about the first pogroms (after 1908 as I said) which lead to early refugia of many people, especially of the west coastal Greeks and the East Thrace ones.

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[Yetos]

there are 3 acts against pontic Greeks,
and one minor

1rst is 1870-80's

2nd is 1908-1916

3rd is 1922-24

and the minor is at 1950's
Pontic greeks who devastet to Con/polis at 1923 were not exchanged due to treaty
but were hunted at 1950's pogrom at Con/polis

the numbers are strange enough,
at 1870's pontic Greeks are mentioned as 3-3.5 000 000, and majority of area, and much bigger than population of Greece of 1860's (Makedonia Thrace Epirus not included)
but we have islamization after Russo-Turkish war and mass exile
leaving to 1 500 000 around end of WW1
and only about 500-600 000 left area at 1923
via the Neutral forces ships

some Historians say that analogy at Oinoe Ortu and Fatsa before 1860 was 5 Greeks 3 Turks 1 Armenian 1 other (Laz Iranian Russian etc)
and at Kars was 5 Armenians to 2 Greeks to 2 Turks
the less Analogy for Greeks was at Kastamone and Sevasteia/Ceasareia (Kastamonu Sivas Kayseri)
at Sevasteia and kaisareia there were 2 Greeks per 6 Turks

The Sultan's firman of 1855 of religious freedoms etc etc if remember correct gave number at 1860-70 that strangely were not expected.

from the Pontic Greeks that live here in my area
major loses were not by Topal Osman,
but mainly due to working camps the Amele taburu (Taburlari)
around 250 000 Greeks Lost their lives at these camps,

2 cases that must mentioned are the case of Tamama-Eleni,
that become a movie,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyuDeLpiKxc

and the other is Konstantinos or Murat,
who Become Turkish military officer to a high degree
both were found kids abandoned and adopted by Turks
and learn their origin at 1970's -80's.
The adapted kids that Andreadis found are many,
and only he knows the number.
He spend a lot part of his life cooparating with Internaional organisations, and Turkish Authorities to find lost Kids
the 2 most interesting become books and movie

 

[Sakattack]

Yes Yetos, forgot to mention the 1870's and to a smaller extent the 1950's in Constantinople, incidents.

They cannot be included though to what is called, Pontic Greek Genocide.

Sent from my Robin

 

[unamuno]

These are my last words my friend. Because you are constantly jumping from a topic to another topic. It is impossible to reach an aggrement via this approach.

I did not mention that pogroms did not happen in the history of the anatolia. Unfortunately, it happened. (Not only in anatolia by the way, balkans, caucasus etc. This is another topic) Firstly you wrote that kemal had done this, then you changed your assertion as "Neoturks of kemal". I would like to ask, who were these Neoturks? and who gave order to them? Your answer is m kemal? Is this your strong history knowledge ))

This headline is relevant with turkish identity in general, not about Pontic greek identity in Greece. Thus, ı think ı wrote my posts to correct place. Who messes up? ))

Finally, i can say that ı recognize the history as a world of facts. My only aim is to understand more and more. I have no revanchist feelings or thoughts to a nation or people. Can you say the same?

I do not bother people here, so please send me personal message, i tried but ı could not. I am a freshman in this forum )

 

[Sakattack]

These are my last words my friend. Because you are constantly jumping from a topic to another topic. It is impossible to reach an aggrement via this approach.

Nobody "jumps". You wrote sth wrong and historically inaccurate about the PonticGreeks - about whom I hope you learned sth after this discussion - and I replied. When people discuss about such subjects, it's kind of normal for the comvo to turn into other relevant topics too. This is what happened here. I never tried to change topics. I was just answering and I was posting arguments.

I did not mention that pogroms did not happen in the history of the anatolia. Unfortunately, it happened. (Not only in anatolia by the way, balkans, caucasus etc. This is another topic) Firstly you wrote that kemal had done this, then you changed your assertion as "Neoturks of kemal". I would like to ask, who were these Neoturks? and who gave order to them? Your answer is m kemal? Is this your strong history knowledge ))

Yes, my answer is still "the Neoturks of Kemal". I think is completely accurate, since the Turkish National Movement who caused and executed the slaughters and the mass murders, had Kemal Atatürk as it's leader.

This headline is relevant with turkish identity in general, not about Pontic greek identity in Greece. Thus, ı think ı wrote my posts to correct place. Who messes up? ))

Yes, that's why it's better not to post irrelevant stuff, such as "Pontic Rums are not Greeks" several times, before somebody just reply to these inaccurate statements. I am in to keep discussion on topic, but it went off topic by you, before I interfere.

Finally, i can say that ı recognize the history as a world of facts. My only aim is to understand more and more. I have no revanchist feelings or thoughts to a nation or people. Can you say the same?

100%. I try to keep bias out of history. I am not sure if I manage to do it, but I really try. I love history.

I do not bother people here, so please send me personal message, i tried but ı could not. I am a freshman in this forum )

I have not anything else to add. It's indeed better to continue - if any of us has the will to do so - via PM's. This forum is hospitable, but better not take full advantage of it. [emoji3]



Sent from my Robin

 

[Boreas]

İt is not about only caucasian admixture. When you compare a Pontus rum with a greek, you will realize that they are genetically completely different. And may be you can realize that, they are autochtone people of the region, not greek.

Sorry, but I won't realize until you or somebody share info, some sample dna etc.

 

[Freshavacado]

Hm. I'm Greek, and my results showed 3% Central Asian 1.24% East Asian 0.5% Oceanian 0.5% Siberian.

 

[NiceIllustrator]

I'm Turkish as far as I know, my family tree tells me my fathers mothers fathers side was from the balkans, my mothers side of the family circassians and the rest from the anatolia region. I turned out 0% east or central asian.

55% Western Asia
40% Balkans

 

[Lenab]

My Mum is Turkish she has Greek some Slavic Balkan and some Armenian Caucasus ancestry her admixture was some North African and South Indian but together the total of that was less than 5 percent.

This was my admixed result

http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/247/lenabs-genetic-results

 

[Lenab]

I'm Turkish as far as I know, my family tree tells me my fathers mothers fathers side was from the balkans, my mothers side of the family circassians and the rest from the anatolia region. I turned out 0% east or central asian.

55% Western Asia
40% Balkans

My Mum got a similar result but less West Asian and more Balkan but there is not that much in it...Btw did you get Italy in any of your admixed results or just Greek?

 

[NiceIllustrator]

My Mum got a similar result but less West Asian and more Balkan but there is not that much in it...Btw did you get Italy in any of your admixed results or just Greek?

I did actually get a couple of precentages Italian(2-3% on 23andme), but I disregarded it since it's so little, myheritageDNA gave me 15% Italian for some reason, but I don't trust them as much as 23andme, although the gedmatch tests with Italian in them also estimaed a 9-15% Italian, but I'm not techy enough to analyze what they actually mean by that.

23andme also states my great great great(?) grandparent was a 100% Italian guy, but 23andme is really weird with their guesses on that grandparent timeline. What I do know for sure is that every website gives me that ~50/~50 Anatolia/Balkan split, with most of them guessing the Balkan is Greece and some state a little bit of Italy.