Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

Iberians/Tartessians are exclusively L51 and the only Celt is I2a :unsure:
 
Iberians/Tartessians are exclusively L51 and the only Celt is I2a :unsure:

I wonder what Tartessian's linguistic affinities are. Are they L51* or just L51? Fun fact: Greeks claimed they started Western civilisation, for whatever reason.
 
Wow Tartessos is absolutely fascinating, can't believe I never paid attention to it. Also just a friendly reminder to check wiki pages in other languages as they can be way more detailed - that's the case here.
 
I wonder what Tartessian's linguistic affinities are. Are they L51* or just L51? Fun fact: Greeks claimed they started Western civilisation, for whatever reason.

Probably some distant relative of Iberian and Aquitanian.
 
Doubt it, no reason for it to be distant if they're all so close to each other.

The genetic evidence definitely lends support to the idea that they were quite closely related. It's just not attested very well, so the linguistic side leaves some room for doubt.
 
The genetic evidence definitely lends support to the idea that they were quite closely related. It's just not attested very well, so the linguistic side leaves some room for doubt.

French Wikipedia says the Tartessians were perhaps related to Berbers, so maybe this is the origin of those North Africans?
 
What stands out to me:
Seems like the Medieval Muslim population was almost a 50-50 mix between Europeans and Berbers, with seemingly no sex bias. The native Spaniards were probably considered full equals immediately after conversion.

The Iberian Celts were autosomally closest to Basques, so present day Iberians are presumably largely pre-Celtic genetically like the insular Celts as well.

All ethnic Greeks are like slightly West Asian shifted Sicilians, all ethnic Greek males belong to unresolved J.

Visigoths are like eastern shifted Germans (so basically Hungarians) which is quite expected given their immediate origin. E-V13 in one sample is telling.
 
Iberians/Tartessians are exclusively L51 and the only Celt is I2a :unsure:

So Iberian and Basque came from the steppe, that would be what facts alone would point. Iron Age samples can be related with more security with languages, but the Oscar Zoroaster of genetics is doing a good job to change what he gets.
 
Any autosomes for those Tartessians? Would be interesting to see given before this afaik we had no "Gibraltan" (or thereabouts) aDNA.
 
Ok wait calm down. Where it is spoked about Solutrean and y-dna I1? Also where it is saying that they found R1b-L51? Is this in the Reich supps? I only see the mention of P312.

Edit. Tho... i just noticed on Eurogenes. On two samples they have I1 and C1a1, C1a1 what the heck is that, is that a typo? It's like Franco-Cantabria is becoming interesting again.
 
Now there's some interesting information. So, they lived "relatively" peacefully for 500 years before mixing? No apparent immediate butchery of all the men. Yet, the local y lines wiped out. Wish we knew what happened.

Yes, this is very strange. Hard to imagine that girls would spontaneously have run into the arms of those foreign newcomers/invaders. And supposing they did, harder still to imagine that the local males peacefully agreed to be deprived of wives and progeny.
 
Yes, this is very strange. Hard to imagine that girls would spontaneously have run into the arms of those foreign newcomers/invaders. And supposing they did, harder still to imagine that the local males peacefully agreed to be deprived of wives and progeny.

Hello hrvclv, good morning.
Male invading lions have a habit of killing the dominant males of a certain invaded group, as do all the puppies, and then mating with the females of the group they have mastered. These females passively, accept these invaders as his new partners. The DNA of the local males is totally extinct and what spreads in future generations is the DNA of the winning males, who are the strongest and the youngest.
Well, I think that's true for lions and not for humans. But it is just an analogy. After all, we are also animals, and I am not sure when the values of civilization and humanity began to oppose those of gratuitous violence and barbarism and, presumably, from when in time we would have passed to go on to act as a specie civilized, intelligent and rational.
Greetings :)
 
Ok wait calm down. Where it is spoked about Solutrean and y-dna I1? Also where it is saying that they found R1b-L51? Is this in the Reich supps? I only see the mention of P312.

Edit. Tho... i just noticed on Eurogenes. On two samples they have I1 and C1a1, C1a1 what the heck is that, is that a typo? It's like Franco-Cantabria is becoming interesting again.

It succeeded the Solutrean culture didn’t it? Idk I thought it did but could be wrong
 
Can’t quote for some reason but Jews were in huge numbers in Spain and we know they mixed more than Ashkenazim, I’d be surprised if there isn’t a noticeable late medieval influence
 
The "Celt" I2a could either be from an absorbed local or it could have come with the newcomers. What specific type is it? There was plenty of I2a in Europe, and we know the "Slavs", for one, absorbed one variety of it.

The Greeks certainly did start Western Civilization. Get out the history books, people.

Getting back to the Spanish samples, I think we can see that indeed, as I've maintained for years, supported by the Chiarelli book on Muslim Sicily, the majority of the "Moors" who went to these places were not Levantine or Saudi, but North Africans. You can see it from the admixture analysis. The relative paucity of J1 in comparison to J2 and the E clades was another clue.

9RlQGEo.png
[/IMG]

An interesting question is posed by the presence of J2a here. 2/3 of these North African admixed J's have no Levant at all. You would think if it was Phoenician there would be a lot more "Levant" in them. Perhaps the early ones were Carthaginian remnants with carried the Levantine y but were mostly North African? As for the later ones, if the "Moors" were mostly North African but with some men from the Levant and there had been admixture that might explain it.

Also interesting, only one of the samples from the 10th to 16th centuries, the period of Muslim presence, plots with modern Spaniards, yet most of Spain is around 7,8,9 % North African, with Portugal reaching 10%. So, it would seem that the expulsions and the re-settlement of Spain from north to south had an effect. The authors state most of the admixture was from the earlier centuries. That would explain it, I guess. Those people were "safe" because their admixture was "hidden" by the passage of time, perhaps.
 
Yes, this is very strange. Hard to imagine that girls would spontaneously have run into the arms of those foreign newcomers/invaders. And supposing they did, harder still to imagine that the local males peacefully agreed to be deprived of wives and progeny.

Yes, but even if that happened, strange as it seems, why wait 500 years to do it?

What follows is rank speculation, so feel free to disregard. :)

Could R1b males just produce more sons? Is that possible? If they did, could an advantage of just a few percent more each generation account for it?

Or perhaps the "newcomers" kept up with their compatriots to the east who were adapting to the increased use of bronze weapons and that gave them an advantage? Yet, in places where their percentages were small, these Central European Beaker types seem even to have adapted the language of the locals.
 
What stands out to me:
Seems like the Medieval Muslim population was almost a 50-50 mix between Europeans and Berbers, with seemingly no sex bias. The native Spaniards were probably considered full equals immediately after conversion.

The Iberian Celts were autosomally closest to Basques, so present day Iberians are presumably largely pre-Celtic genetically like the insular Celts as well.

All ethnic Greeks are like slightly West Asian shifted Sicilians, all ethnic Greek males belong to unresolved J.

Visigoths are like eastern shifted Germans (so basically Hungarians) which is quite expected given their immediate origin. E-V13 in one sample is telling.

Good points.

Do you remember all those discussions where people were vehement that the old maps showing "Celts" spreading out from Urnfield relatively late were wrong? :) Well, it seems they were right, and the "Celts" were the late arriving elites.
 
The "Celt" I2a could either be from an absorbed local or it could have come with the newcomers. What specific type is it? There was plenty of I2a in Europe, and we know the "Slavs", for one, absorbed one variety of it.

The Greeks certainly did start Western Civilization. Get out the history books, people.

Getting back to the Spanish samples, I think we can see that indeed, as I've maintained for years, supported by the Chiarelli book on Muslim Sicily, the majority of the "Moors" who went to these places were not Levantine or Saudi, but North Africans. You can see it from the admixture analysis. The relative paucity of J1 in comparison to J2 and the E clades was another clue.

9RlQGEo.png
[/IMG]

An interesting question is posed by the presence of J2a here. 2/3 of these North African admixed J's have no Levant at all. You would think if it was Phoenician there would be a lot more "Levant" in them. Perhaps the early ones were Carthaginian remnants with carried the Levantine y but were mostly North African? As for the later ones, if the "Moors" were mostly North African but with some men from the Levant and there had been admixture that might explain it.

Also interesting, only one of the samples from the 10th to 16th centuries, the period of Muslim presence, plots with modern Spaniards, yet most of Spain is around 7,8,9 % North African, with Portugal reaching 10%. So, it would seem that the expulsions and the re-settlement of Spain from north to south had an effect. The authors state most of the admixture was from the earlier centuries. That would explain it, I guess. Those people were "safe" because their admixture was "hidden" by the passage of time, perhaps.

Could the J2a be Visigothic or Roman as well? Two of the Muslims are actually not E-M81 but E-V13, so it looks like at least around half of their paternal lines were European.
 
The "Celt" I2a could either be from an absorbed local or it could have come with the newcomers. What specific type is it? There was plenty of I2a in Europe, and we know the "Slavs", for one, absorbed one variety of it.

The Greeks certainly did start Western Civilization. Get out the history books, people.

Getting back to the Spanish samples, I think we can see that indeed, as I've maintained for years, supported by the Chiarelli book on Muslim Sicily, the majority of the "Moors" who went to these places were not Levantine or Saudi, but North Africans. You can see it from the admixture analysis. The relative paucity of J1 in comparison to J2 and the E clades was another clue.

9RlQGEo.png
[/IMG]

An interesting question is posed by the presence of J2a here. 2/3 of these North African admixed J's have no Levant at all. You would think if it was Phoenician there would be a lot more "Levant" in them. Perhaps the early ones were Carthaginian remnants with carried the Levantine y but were mostly North African? As for the later ones, if the "Moors" were mostly North African but with some men from the Levant and there had been admixture that might explain it.

Also interesting, only one of the samples from the 10th to 16th centuries, the period of Muslim presence, plots with modern Spaniards, yet most of Spain is around 7,8,9 % North African, with Portugal reaching 10%. So, it would seem that the expulsions and the re-settlement of Spain from north to south had an effect. The authors state most of the admixture was from the earlier centuries. That would explain it, I guess. Those people were "safe" because their admixture was "hidden" by the passage of time, perhaps.
The "Celt" I2a could either be from an absorbed local or it could have come with the newcomers. What specific type is it? There was plenty of I2a in Europe, and we know the "Slavs", for one, absorbed one variety of it.

"The Greeks certainly did start Western Civilization. Get out the history books, people."
Really? Did the Greeks not borrow the alphabet from Phoenicians?
Did the Greeks not borrow sculpting from Egyptians?
Did the Greeks not learn ship building from Arabs?
Did the Greeks not learn Algebra from Arabs?
Doesn't everyone else need to be credited for their contribution?
 

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