I don't think Pliny would lie to us about Verona's Raetic and Euganean association. He was a local of Como and would've been doing a lot less speculating on this topic than more distant Greek ethnographers. The material culture here if anything shows continuity with the preceding Este finds in Verona from the 10th cenutry BC including the horse burials.
What's more is that this particular sample does not cluster anywhere near IA Gauls. I posted the distances a few posts back if you look. They do however form a cline with IA Etruscans and latins. If this weren't the case and the sample showed a clear IA gallic like profile I'd agree with you, but I'm not seeing anything Transalpine here.
yes, I have deep roots in Veneto ......................but my father did state, our line never saw the sea for many centuries, he meant , we always came via the alps
Paternal from 1450 in trentino .............but I do not know when they entered Veneto, I suspect circa 1600
My family tree paternal is 100% accurate and goes back to 1680 ........................then it drops to 80% until 1450
My Maternal, I can only go back to circa 1700 with 100% accuracy
I still have 1st cousins on both sides in the Veneto ...........that I still speak to ...................only 2 days ago I spoke to my 1st cousin Lucia and other cousin Beatrice
I don't think Pliny would lie to us about Verona's Raetic and Euganean association. He was a local of Como and would've been doing a lot less speculating on this topic than more distant Greek ethnographers. The material culture here if anything shows continuity with the preceding Este finds in Verona from the 10th cenutry BC including the horse burials.
What's more is that this particular sample does not cluster anywhere near IA Gauls. I posted the distances a few posts back if you look. They do however form a cline with IA Etruscans and latins. If this weren't the case and the sample showed a clear IA gallic like profile I'd agree with you, but I'm not seeing anything Transalpine here.
I agree that the rhaetic and euganei where near and around Verona.................they shared a trading town with the Venetic in a place called Cologna Veneta
I question how much influence did the cenomani have with Verona......I understand they where closeby
Does Livy say anything about them ................he was a local
I agree that the rhaetic and euganei where near and around Verona.................they shared a trading town with the Venetic in a place called Cologna Veneta
I question how much influence did the cenomani have with Verona......I understand they where closeby
Does Livy say anything about them ................he was a local
In my opinion, the Cenomani and other transalpine will look like the CEU outliers that we see popping up in iron age Etruria. We will probably see them in small amounts at some point, but I don't think their influence was ever large. These types are clearly differentiated from the Verona sample and also that of other known Iron age Italics.
yes, I have deep roots in Veneto ......................but my father did state, our line never saw the sea for many centuries, he meant , we always came via the alps
Paternal from 1450 in trentino .............but I do not know when they entered Veneto, I suspect circa 1600
My family tree paternal is 100% accurate and goes back to 1680 ........................then it drops to 80% until 1450
My Maternal, I can only go back to circa 1700 with 100% accuracy
I still have 1st cousins on both sides in the Veneto ...........that I still speak to ...................only 2 days ago I spoke to my 1st cousin Lucia and other cousin Beatrice
I ask simply because if you have rather deep roots from Veneto in your entire ancestral background then you should really be plotting with the rest of modern venetians who you are using as a source population. With roots of 100% certainty from Veneto all the way to 1700 on both sides it seems silly to me to define your own profile as only 75% modern Venetian. You're probably just picking up the natural variation that has existed in the region for some time. If you have no known german speaking ancestors going that far back, then it seems like a case of overfit to me.
Maybe .................but I have a paper trail on my family lines .............as stated above...............but I do have non-italian surnames in trentino..........so they spoke italian and had italian christian names , but surnames are Hintz, Steiner, Plazzer, Alispahic and Eccher in the tree...........all are women as they married into the paternal line about 300 years ago
from what I recall admixture is taken by both sides of ones family tree
Problem solved! My antivirus mistakenly removed an .exe in the WGSExtract program, making the error message appear. Over the next weeks i will slowly convert more files.
Here is another one, with higher coverage.
Problem solved! My antivirus mistakenly removed an .exe in the WGSExtract program, making the error message appear. Over the next weeks i will slowly convert more files.
Here is another one, with higher coverage.
Problem solved! My antivirus mistakenly removed an .exe in the WGSExtract program, making the error message appear. Over the next weeks i will slowly convert more files.
Here is another one, with higher coverage.
Problem solved! My antivirus mistakenly removed an .exe in the WGSExtract program, making the error message appear. Over the next weeks i will slowly convert more files.
Here is another one, with higher coverage.
This individual is absolutely Raetic/Euganean. They are almost identical to the modern average of Trentino and do not resemble the Transalpine gauls found in France. They cluster with modern Northern Italics, IA/BA Northern adriatic populations and Modern Balearic islanders, some spanish populations and also most interestingly Vatya culture BA hungarians.
I understand modern northern Italians substantially overlapping with IA/BA northern Adriatic populations and Vatya BA Hungarians, as you maintain the latter is the source of most of modern northern Italians' genetic make-up, if I have correctly followed your theory.
However what is supposed to be the reason for northern Italians' overlap with some eastern Iberian populations? Random "recombination" (for lack of a better word)? I.e. substantially the same ancestral components, from different sources (in terms of ancient cultures) but randomly combined in similar amounts?
I understand modern northern Italians substantially overlapping with IA/BA northern Adriatic populations and Vatya BA Hungarians, as you maintain the latter is the source of most of modern northern Italians' genetic make-up, if I have correctly followed your theory.
However what is supposed to be the reason for northern Italians' overlap with some eastern Iberian populations? Random "recombination" (for lack of a better word)? I.e. substantially the same ancestral components, from different sources (in terms of ancient cultures) but randomly combined in similar amounts?
I reckon it's more "random" recombination.
I'm convinced that Italy (of all regions) has more in common with various parts of the Balkans rather than the Iberian Peninsula.
I reckon it's more "random" recombination.
I'm convinced that Italy (of all regions) has more in common with various parts of the Balkans rather than the Iberian Peninsula.
From a genetic standpoint, I gather that the Balkans peninsula have a wider spectrum of profiles, i.e. "southern/southern-central Italian-like", "central/central-northern Italian-like", Slavic, possibly even Germanic-like. To date I haven't seen "northern Italian-like" genetic profiles among modern Balkanic populations though (do please correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not sure if these may be found f.e. in Istria and Dalmatia (although I bet there is a very strong Slavic component there, today). The Iberian peninsula on the other hand seems surprisingly homogeneous for such a big chunk of land.
Culturally, of course, it is a whole different story.
i simulated these two from K13, because when using the other tool they came out really noisy, one with no WHG and 3% east asian, however on k13 they appeared normal. It will be nice if someone run their raw data with k36 and makes another sim to compare.
I understand modern northern Italians substantially overlapping with IA/BA northern Adriatic populations and Vatya BA Hungarians, as you maintain the latter is the source of most of modern northern Italians' genetic make-up, if I have correctly followed your theory.
However what is supposed to be the reason for northern Italians' overlap with some eastern Iberian populations? Random "recombination" (for lack of a better word)? I.e. substantially the same ancestral components, from different sources (in terms of ancient cultures) but randomly combined in similar amounts?
Yes, that's correct. The basic idea I have proposed is that the Vatya culture migrants directly gave birth to the Terramare culture which demographically dwarfed the proceeding Polada culture in Po Valley. For this reason I'm anticipating that the bulk sum of IA and LBA N. Italics will look the same as or similar to Vatya.
Are you referring to modern Northern Italians or samples like this Raetic-like individual when we speak of iberian overlap? First of all it's important to note that the iberian genetic average has shifted since the iron age so this is a bit more of a modern phenomenon from what I've seen. I agree with vallicanus that this is probably just coincidental due to the natrual variation between Vatya and later northern Italics rather than a direct Iberia to Po valley migration scenario.
From a genetic standpoint, I gather that the Balkans peninsula have a wider spectrum of profiles, i.e. "southern/southern-central Italian-like", "central/central-northern Italian-like", Slavic, possibly even Germanic-like. To date I haven't seen "northern Italian-like" genetic profiles among modern Balkanic populations though (do please correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not sure if these may be found f.e. in Istria and Dalmatia (although I bet there is a very strong Slavic component there, today). The Iberian peninsula on the other hand seems surprisingly homogeneous for such a big chunk of land.
Culturally, of course, it is a whole different story.
The ancient balkans had a large sum of modern northern Italian-like profiles, actually. Check the Iron age Paionians and the Bronze/iron age samples from Croatia and Slovenia. They all distinctly overlap Northern Italy. These types of profiles in the balkans were effectively eliminated by slavic admixture which arrived after the fall of the Roman empire. Northern Italy in the context of this theory is mostly or entirely a holdover from these regional types of population genetics in the carpathian basin/northern adriatic.
i simulated these two from K13, because when using the other tool they came out really noisy, one with no WHG and 3% east asian, however on k13 they appeared normal. It will be nice if someone run their raw data with k36 and makes another sim to compare.
The top one clusters most similarly with Balearic islanders and is still very close to Etruscan, modern Spanish and modern Northern Italian populations. It's also very close to the Raetic-like individual but a little bit more west shifted.
i simulated these two from K13, because when using the other tool they came out really noisy, one with no WHG and 3% east asian, however on k13 they appeared normal. It will be nice if someone run their raw data with k36 and makes another sim to compare.
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