Veneti

[GloomyGonzales]

The amber trade linked Lusatian Culture and Adriatic Veneti for about 800 years. A long time, enough to share some cultural aspects. They say that the basic haplogroup for Lusatian Culture is R1a1a7, but unfortunately this haplogroup is not present in Italy. Do you know other subclades that are common in Poland and North-East Italy for Lusatian time (1300-500 b.C.)?

As far as I know for a while only R1a Z280+ clades were found in Italy. R1a Z280+ clades most likely originated somewhere on the North of Poland at least that's where we can fine the highest diversity of R1a Z280+ clades now.

 

[zanipolo]

The amber trade linked Lusatian Culture and Adriatic Veneti for about 800 years. A long time, enough to share some cultural aspects. They say that the basic haplogroup for Lusatian Culture is R1a1a7, but unfortunately this haplogroup is not present in Italy. Do you know other subclades that are common in Poland and North-East Italy for Lusatian time (1300-500 b.C.)?

Veneti trade in the medieval times was different to trade in the ancient times. In the medieval, the veneti had its people outposted to constantinople, alexandtra, levant, flanders, southwest england, etc and they owned the ships and controlled the cargo and taxes. In the ancient times, I suspect that it was only a trade relay system in which the aestii ( some say estonians ) gave/sold their amber to the Venedi ( some say these are later baltic prussians), who sold it to east germanic tribes, who sold it to the veneti/illyrians on the danube who then brought it to venetic lands in veneto and they sold it to phoenicians.
As per E.Perago, she discovered both baltic and jutland amber in veneto - Amber can be pinpointed of where it was grown due to its differences.
The venetic amber which was not sold was used to keep evil spirits away from the users - 100% of all amber found in skeltons where only women and children.

The Dna IMO might have some similar markers but its only accidental,

Below link actually brackets veneti with both Norway and estonia and others...........you make up your mind

http://www2.gslt.hum.gu.se/~leifg/jh/Roewer+Croucher+al_on_Ystr+History_2005.pdf


BTW, the veneti and norwegian are similar in cuisine in cooking, horse meat and bacala ( cod) from medieval recipes........and to this day, veneti get 70% of their cod from Norway. trivial fact.

 

[zanipolo]

As far as I know for a while only R1a Z280+ clades were found in Italy. R1a Z280+ clades most likely originated somewhere on the North of Poland at least that's where we can fine the highest diversity of R1a Z280+ clades now.

In Semagnl site ...there is none in North east Italy

In Ftdna there are only 2, one in Friuli and the other in Veneto , with actually the surname of one in Veneto was the name of a doge of Venice ...Dona'

 

[piero]

As far as I know for a while only R1a Z280+ clades were found in Italy. R1a Z280+ clades most likely originated somewhere on the North of Poland at least that's where we can fine the highest diversity of R1a Z280+ clades now.

Good info GloomyGonzales. When was born Z280+ subclade? How old is it? Do you have any map of its spread in Europe?

 

[zanipolo]

Good info GloomyGonzales. When was born Z280+ subclade? How old is it? Do you have any map of its spread in Europe?

Numbers below are from 2010 studies, I have linked the main article before. Below is the percentages for North-East Italy. The regions of Veneto, Friuli and Trento

R1b1b2 (M269) = 41.3
G2a* = 11.9
R1a1* = 10.1
I2a1* (M423) = 9.4
I1* = 9.0
J2a1b* (M67) = 5.0
L1b (M317) = 4.5
T1 (M70) = 3.3
J2a* = 3.0
J2a1k (DYS445 = 6) = 3.0
E1a (M33) = 1.5
E1b1b1a2 (V13) = 1.5
E1b1b1c (M123) = 1.5
I2b1 (M223) = 1.5
J2a4b1 (M92) = 1.5

 

[wolfswald]

Zanipolo,

would you mind posting the 2010 article for Italian DNA once again? I cannot find it.

Besides, there is one R1a-L1029 (downstream of M458) in the Lake Como area, the family name in question being documented there since 1100 AD on the Isola Comacina. Unfortunately, it is still unclear how it got there. The Veneti option is one of those I have considered, next to the Lombard and Ostrogoth migrations.

wolfswald

 

[zanipolo]

Zanipolo,

would you mind posting the 2010 article for Italian DNA once again? I cannot find it.

Besides, there is one R1a-L1029 (downstream of M458) in the Lake Como area, the family name in question being documented there since 1100 AD on the Isola Comacina. Unfortunately, it is still unclear how it got there. The Veneti option is one of those I have considered, next to the Lombard and Ostrogoth migrations.

wolfswald

see below
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

and

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

see all links


you checking

Antonio de Serponte, abt. 1400, Varenna/Lombardy

 

[piero]

MOESAN

Veneti of present Brittany was defeated by Romans, not destroyed: archelology proves it

Please, i'm looking for this archaeological evidence: my idea is that Venety from Brittany, after Caesar defeat, migrated to Scotland (Venicones). When Romans abandoned Great Britain the Venicones migrated to Wales with King Cunedda.

 

[zanipolo]

MOESAN
Please, i'm looking for this archaeological evidence: my idea is that Venety from Brittany, after Caesar defeat, migrated to Scotland (Venicones). When Romans abandoned Great Britain the Venicones migrated to Wales with King Cunedda.

this is one article
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm

I find by searching " rootsweb venicones", sometimes more attachments are found this way for me...although the messages are sometimes bias


and you can also gather hidden articles by searching "venicones maps"
select the interesting one and behind it could be an article
http://marikavel.org/personnes/venicones/accueil.htm

 

[MOESAN]

this is one article
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm

I find by searching " rootsweb venicones", sometimes more attachments are found this way for me...although the messages are sometimes bias


and you can also gather hidden articles by searching "venicones maps"
select the interesting one and behind it could be an article
http://marikavel.org/personnes/venicones/accueil.htm

Thanks for the links
I red the first digest and I found it was very unserious :
no knowledge of phonetical rules along chronology (confusion of W/Venet > W/Venetch! based on an assumption that W/Venic- could pronounced W/Venitch, that W/Ven- in W/Veneti is the same as Fionn, Gwyn, Gwenn = white, blond when we know 'these modern celtic words are born upon Wind-),
I agree Veneti could have some sets in Brittonia and Hibernia at some time,because they was the pole of Armorica sea trade and was very powerful at the Julius Caesar's time, but this position in Eastern Scotland (Pictland) seams to me very unprobable, the same for Northern Ireland -
I'll read the second link
nos vad deoc'h - nos dda i chi -

 

[MOESAN]

we cannot rely on the only presence of a shared term in a tribe name to affirm a recent community of origin , or an identity for the tirbes which share it

 

[piero]

Well MOESAN, I agree with:

we cannot rely on the only presence of a shared term in a tribe name to affirm a recent community of origin , or an identity for the tirbes which share it

But, please, answer to my question: Wich archaeological proves and evidence do you have about this?

Veneti of present Brittany was defeated by Romans, not destroyed: archelology proves it

One more question: If I go to Paris archaelogical museum, can I see some archaeological findings about Veneti of Brittany? I was in Vannes museum but there was very few!

 

[MOESAN]

I can't answer you for the most:
a) archeological proofs: it is not me that affirms that but some historians and archeologists, without sharing more details with readers -
b) museums: I don't know for Paris, what I know is that the archeological remnants are as a rule found in places far go their previous gebuine presence place! paradoxe!!!

on the anthropological side, ex-Venetian territory showed not far ago yet some slight differences from other western regions of Brittany, on the direction of more local mesolithical traits (cromagnoid and ??? 'teviecoid type') - but it could be put on the account of more "british" islands Celts in other western places of Brittany, and repopulation of Veneti lands by other western pre-britton Armoirians... I'm sure of nothing even if I think it is rather a conserved local Venetic population that plays there...

to be sensible, I think the numbers of vainquished people and the 'all-to-nothing' concepts have to be considered with great defiance in History - Veneti of Aremorica was seamingly a numerous tribe or confederation of small tribes, and their inland territory would be very difficult to be emptied down of people or to be controlled by Roman Army in a short time - Roma destroyed their navy and the elites and sea-warriors, not all the population, for I think -

 

[MOESAN]

sorry: "far from their previous genuine location place"

 

[MOESAN]

from"Protohistoire de la Bretagne" (PR. GIOT /J. BRIARD / L. PAPE)
translation (free): "From this 56 BC war it resulted an indiscutable roman victory, but the Veneti did not fade out for that from the world map, only the elite prisoniers were killed and the other prisoniers captured during the battle were sold by auction."

the authors wrote that during the 52 BC revolt of Gaulish tribes, Julius Caesar mentionned among the Armorican ones: Coriosolites, Redones, Ambibarii, Caletes, Osismes, Lemovices and Unelles, without Veneti, but that this could have been omitted by Caesae because he wrote beofre he had destroyed ALL the Veneti, and could not going across his own words; by the way, Ceasar did not mention the Namnetes in this revolt, what is very curious too...

 

[zanipolo]

from"Protohistoire de la Bretagne" (PR. GIOT /J. BRIARD / L. PAPE)
translation (free): "From this 56 BC war it resulted an indiscutable roman victory, but the Veneti did not fade out for that from the world map, only the elite prisoniers were killed and the other prisoniers captured during the battle were sold by auction."

the authors wrote that during the 52 BC revolt of Gaulish tribes, Julius Caesar mentionned among the Armorican ones: Coriosolites, Redones, Ambibarii, Caletes, Osismes, Lemovices and Unelles, without Veneti, but that this could have been omitted by Caesae because he wrote beofre he had destroyed ALL the Veneti, and could not going across his own words; by the way, Ceasar did not mention the Namnetes in this revolt, what is very curious too...

Its funny that caesar used V for U in his books ( writings) except on this occasion. Did he mean Ueneti .......a people from middle scandinavia.
Clearly he knew of adriatic veneti bcause they became roman citizens from 100BC. I really wonder if he refernced the adriatic and armorica veneti anywhere

 

[MOESAN]

Its funny that caesar used V for U in his books ( writings) except on this occasion. Did he mean Ueneti .......a people from middle scandinavia.
Clearly he knew of adriatic veneti bcause they became roman citizens from 100BC. I really wonder if he refernced the adriatic and armorica veneti anywhere

V and U was the same letter in ancient latin, I think (the same confusion occurred for ancient I and J - only modern texts or translations made the distinction after between V and U - for more certitude ask some specialist (maybe Taranis or an other poster?)
I supposed learned people consider V + consonnants = /U/[oo] and V + vowels = /W/ --> /V/ -
&: I was not aware of a tribe named Veneti or Ueneti in Scandinavia - I only heard of one of this name on, or not far from, the Baltic southern shores, which cultural affiliation is discussed.
good night

 

[wolfswald]

Zanipolo,

thank you for posting the links - apologies that I've seen this only now. I think I had seen the Battaglia article before, the other collection was new to me.

you checking

Antonio de Serponte, abt. 1400, Varenna/Lombardy

That is just the one I am doing research on; I'm responsible for the paper trail research in this case.

Talking of that: in January 2013, one forum post in the Biodiversity forum (which is currently down and still has severe technical problems) was written by someone who is L1029+ and suspects his origin might be (Northern) Italy, too. Unfortunately, I cannot remember his nickname. If anybody comes across this and knows who that was: I'll be happy about any info about how to contact him!

TIA
wolfswald

 

[zanipolo]

As per 2012 study on pre-roman Italy and the latest on Italy and the southeast Balkans 2008 ( unless anyone else has latest data except the Friuli-Venezia-Giulia one, please share ).
I noted the yDna of northeast Italy ( friuli, veneto and trento ) of the pre -roman numbers and the modern numbers do not seem to vary that much, I was wondering if 2000 to 3000 years is great for any genetic change.

pre-roman (%)
E-V13 = 2.2
E-M215 = 2.2
E-M34 = 2.1 (semitic people)
G-P15 = 4.2
I-M423 = 21.3
I-M26 = 2.1
J-M172 = 10.7
L-M317 = 2.1
R-M420 = 12.8
R-M269 = 40.4


2008 tests (%)
E-M33 = 1.5
E-V13 = 1.5
E-M123 = 1.5
G2a* = 11.9
I1* = 9.0
I2a1* = 9.4
I-M223 = 1.5
J2a* = 3.0
J2a1k = 3.0
J-M92 = 1.5
L2-M317 = 4.5
R-M420 = 10.4
R-M269 = 41.8
T-L131 = 3.0
T-P77 = 0.3

 

[piero]

source?

As per 2012 study on pre-roman Italy and the latest on Italy and the southeast Balkans 2008 ( unless anyone else has latest data except the Friuli-Venezia-Giulia one, please share ).
I noted the yDna of northeast Italy ( friuli, veneto and trento ) of the pre -roman numbers and the modern numbers do not seem to vary that much, I was wondering if 2000 to 3000 years is great for any genetic change.

pre-roman (%)
E-V13 = 2.2
E-M215 = 2.2
E-M34 = 2.1 (semitic people)
G-P15 = 4.2
I-M423 = 21.3
I-M26 = 2.1
J-M172 = 10.7
L-M317 = 2.1
R-M420 = 12.8
R-M269 = 40.4


2008 tests (%)
E-M33 = 1.5
E-V13 = 1.5
E-M123 = 1.5
G2a* = 11.9
I1* = 9.0
I2a1* = 9.4
I-M223 = 1.5
J2a* = 3.0
J2a1k = 3.0
J-M92 = 1.5
L2-M317 = 4.5
R-M420 = 10.4
R-M269 = 41.8
T-L131 = 3.0
T-P77 = 0.3

Hi Zanipolo, this is very very interesting to me! Please, which is the scientific article or book from which you took the datas? Which is the source of this?