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Veneti

So your saying he may not be the correct haplogroup? Lol
 
Or maybe he's just an extreme rarity for that region; hg G in Veneto is very rare as well lol..so maybe his ancestors came from a different part of Italy then migrat northeast?
 
adamo said:
Or maybe he's just an extreme rarity for that region; hg G in Veneto is very rare as well lol..so maybe his ancestors came from a different part of Italy then migrat northeast?
Click to expand...

Piero stated he was Bavarian in area. The bavarian ( both before they became germanic and after they became germanic ) migrated to Veneto , Trentino and Friuli. Some notable families are the Scaliger, Ezzelini, Savorgnan etc .
By his surname, he is central Veneto and most likely came down from trentino area or Belluno.

G is not rare in Veneto.

There is a project to test all Venetian nobility's DNA, the Balbi family and another family ( i cannot recall) are G1c

if you have
some connection to the 'Veneto' region, or Northern Italy and
across to Croatia.

For SNP:
Look for 'G' in rs5747008 as AG or GG
Look for 'T' in rs3788268 as CT or TT
Look for 'C' in rs4423695 as CT or CC
Look for 'T' in rs1079554 as CT or TT
Look for 'G' in rs12216299 as GT or GG
Look for 'T' in rs12416605 as CT or TT

In each case the SNP has a heterozygous level that is low
in European populations; and a homozygous level that is
practically zero.

If you have any of these...write to Ian Logan as he is extremely interested
 
Sile said:
Piero stated he was Bavarian in area. The bavarian ( both before they became germanic and after they became germanic ) migrated to Veneto , Trentino and Friuli. Some notable families are the Scaliger, Ezzelini, Savorgnan etc .
By his surname, he is central Veneto and most likely came down from trentino area or Belluno.

G is not rare in Veneto.

There is a project to test all Venetian nobility's DNA, the Balbi family and another family ( i cannot recall) are G1c

if you have
some connection to the 'Veneto' region, or Northern Italy and
across to Croatia.

For SNP:
Look for 'G' in rs5747008 as AG or GG
Look for 'T' in rs3788268 as CT or TT
Look for 'C' in rs4423695 as CT or CC
Look for 'T' in rs1079554 as CT or TT
Look for 'G' in rs12216299 as GT or GG
Look for 'T' in rs12416605 as CT or TT

In each case the SNP has a heterozygous level that is low
in European populations; and a homozygous level that is
practically zero.

If you have any of these...write to Ian Logan as he is extremely interested
Click to expand...


Balbi DNA Project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/balbidnaproject/default.aspx?section=yresults
 
There is a project to test all Venetian nobility's DNA
Click to expand...
Sile, do you have more details about this project?

I partecipate to a general project about Venetian genetic in 2009, it was promoted by professor Fabio Carrera, but I think that this project shipwreked (despite being connected in some way with Genographic project https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/).
The final report of the Venetians origins project looks like to be inconclusive and not scientific: http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/A...-121008/unrestricted/Origins_Report_Final.pdf
 
All of G2a's age estimates are between 2785 years and 15,020 years, I don't get your point
 
They all arrived during the Neolithic to italy
 
No; 10,000-15,000 years ago is the Neolithic era during which agriculturalist middle easterners and certain north-African types that moved to the Middle East invaded southeastern Europe because of their constant food and resource surpluses. The G haplogroup would have probably accompanied J2,T and E3b lineages; the most frequent agriculturalist lineages in Europe are J2 and E3b; G is much rarer and T is very rare. It seems there was an expansion of genes from Georgia towards Italy, as parts of southern Italy have some of europe's highest J2, E3b, G AND T frequencies. The lineage G2a encompasses 10-12% of all italian men; a similar frequency to R1b- U152 in Italy (12%). E-V13 and J2a* affect about 7-8% of italian men (just those particular subclades of those haplogroups).
 
A great migration took place, from the Paris Basin, towards Italy, 6,000 years before Christ, Celtic people's pouring in, according to gathered area. The first anatolians set up on Crete 9,000 years before Christ, and colonized the Apulia region of Italy 1000 years later (8000 before Christ). One migration came from the north, the other from the sea to the east.
 
adamo said:
They all arrived during the Neolithic to italy
Click to expand...

Well, not according to Boattini et al...

I'll preface this by saying that the dating issue is unresolved in my mind. The authors themselves advise taking their dates, based on the germline rate, not the evolutionary rate, with a great deal of caution. I especially think that's warranted because they use very few STR's, although the ones they chose are the ones least subject to saturation.

Leaving that aside, and looking at their figures, they concluded that " In fact, in contrast to mtDNA age estimates, almost all Y-chromosome estimates fall between late Neolithic and the Bronze Age. "

Later, however, they say" it is worth noting the older age estimate obtained for Y-haplogroup G2-P15 (15,020 YBP) that, coupled with its high frequency (11.09%), makes it the most probable candidate for a continuity with Italian Mesolithic populations (although a Neolithic origin for G2-P15 is discussed, [22], [23]). The most frequent G2-P15 cluster (12,643 YBP, Table 2), besides being evenly diffused in NWI and SEI, it encompasses almost all Sardinian G2-P15 individuals (Figure 2, Table 1). These facts, together with the higher degree of isolation of Sardinia to Neolithic and Post-Neolithic migration processes, support the antiquity of this haplogroup in Italy. Despite obtaining similar time estimates for G2a in Italy (12,899 YBP), Rootsi et al. (2012) [62] explain the diffusion of its main sub-lineages in this country solely as a consequence of Neolithic and Post-Neolithic events."

So, while they acknowledge that other interpretations are possible, they posit a mesolithic origin for the pan-Italian and Sardinian cluster of G2a in Italy (It's Group 3 in their table)

There are arguments to be made on either side. The Neolithic didn't arrive in Italy until long after 13, 000 B.C. That's old even for the Neolithic in Anatolia. Even Rootsi et al's 11,000 B.C. is early. However, it's a fact that there was some demographic movement from the near East into Europe that accompanied the Neolithic transition, and G2a has been found all over the so far sampled Neolithic sites in Europe, so perhaps their dates are slightly off.

Just generally, while I think their data is very informative, I find their explanations for the NW Italy/SE Italy split rather confusing. They give a nod to the fact that, " the dates of several DAPC clusters fall within the range of the Metal Ages (Table 2). During this long period (third and second millennia BC) Italy underwent important technological and social transformations finally leading to the ethnogenesis of the most important proto-historic Italic peoples. On the whole, our results indicate that these transformations, far from being exclusively cultural phenomena, actually involved relevant population events.'

However, at the same time they conclude that the differing sources of the Neolithic in Italy, i.e a more Mesolithic/Neolithic mix in NW Italy, with a more central European and western orientation and a more complete Neolithic picture in the SE with more affinities to the Balkans and Anatolia, explains the split.

Part of the problem, I think, lies in the fact, as they say, that "the model used does not account for migration. " And yet the structure looks like it could be traced back to that 3500 B.C. date that might very well indicate migration from central Europe.

As for how this impacts G2a, it seems to me that the pan Italian older cluster could most probably be connected to the Neolithic in Italy, while the NW cluster that they identify as being more similar to the German cluster, could be related to these later population migrations, and the specifically southern ones that seem to date to the Bronze Age would fit very well with migrations from the Aegean.
 
Also from Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.

This could suggest a Northern (Alpine) route and a Southern (Mediterranean) route for G2a in Italy or a route from the South [SEI] towards the Alps and beyond;

tzjh.png

NWI: North-Western Italy / SEI: South-Eastern Italy / SAR: Sardinia
IBE: Iberian Peninsula / BAL: Balkan Peninsula / GER: Central-Europe (Germany) / CAU: Caucasus
 
Nobody1 said:
Also from Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.

This could suggest a Northern (Alpine) route and a Southern (Mediterranean) route for G2a in Italy or a route from the South [SEI] towards the Alps and beyond;

tzjh.png

NWI: North-Western Italy / SEI: South-Eastern Italy / SAR: Sardinia
IBE: Iberian Peninsula / BAL: Balkan Peninsula / GER: Central-Europe (Germany) / CAU: Caucasus
Click to expand...

if Y-G2a NWI is closer to the Switzerland-Germany-Austrian G2a, it could very well be of danubian neolithic origin, and not the possible South to North cardial colonization along Rhône River...
as we are speaking about Veneti and possible connexions, I red again even the classical writers of antic roman and greek times considered the Veneti of today Britanny and the Veneti of today Italy as completely distinct peoples, with no evident cultural nor linguistic ties -
 
MOESAN said:
if Y-G2a NWI is closer to the Switzerland-Germany-Austrian G2a, it could very well be of danubian neolithic origin, and not the possible South to North cardial colonization along Rhône River...
as we are speaking about Veneti and possible connexions, I red again even the classical writers of antic roman and greek times considered the Veneti of today Britanny and the Veneti of today Italy as completely distinct peoples, with no evident cultural nor linguistic ties -
Click to expand...

That is true, but there is a theory being looked at since 2011 which states 3 possibilities:
1 - They came via anatolia (asia minor) ............the phygian cap is one of their symbols
2 - They came via lusatia ( East Germanic , if there ever was a east germanic in the bronze-age)
3 - brittany , where their neighbours the cenomanni commenced in maine ( next to brittany) and arrived in western Veneto ( although there is a 700 year difference in traveling time)

I believe G2a did not arrive by the sea, but by the danube river
 
This could suggest a Northern (Alpine) route for G2a in Italy.
Click to expand...
This is in line with the result that Ötzi the Iceman, the Similaun Man, has a Y-line DNA haplogroup G2a2b. (From the Docu-Movie: "Ötzi, ein Archäologiekrimi" by Christine Sprachmann. TV-Broadcast by 3sat 10 August 2011 and br-alpha 13 September 2011).

as we are speaking about Veneti and possible connexions, I red again even the classical writers of antic roman and greek times considered the Veneti of today Britanny and the Veneti of today Italy as completely distinct peoples, with no evident cultural nor linguistic ties
Click to expand...
Sorry Moesan: the ancient geographer Strabo wrote about a common belive on a connection between Brittany and Adriatic Veneti.

1 - They came via anatolia (asia minor) ............the phygian cap is one of their symbols
2 - They came via lusatia ( East Germanic , if there ever was a east germanic in the bronze-age)
Click to expand...
In opinion of Francoise Bader (from Sorbonne) they start from Anatolia, they reach Lusatian area and then they went down to Italy. This is also my opinion, in a cultural sense (I don't know if it has also a genetic connection).
 
piero said:
In opinion of Francoise Bader (from Sorbonne) they start from Anatolia, they reach Lusatian area and then they went down to Italy. This is also my opinion, in a cultural sense (I don't know if it has also a genetic connection).
Click to expand...

I read a few years from old authors , both English and continental, from about 1780-1820, that the veneti crossed into europe 100 years before the fall of troy , about 1280BC, they proceed along the black sea until the reached the Danube river. They then went inland and split from each other where the Danube meets the Sava river. One group settled in pannonian area and the other went to modern thuringia lands in Germany. ...........I have no opinion on the thuringia part, but the other part makes sense.
 
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MOESAN said:
as we are speaking about Veneti and possible connexions, I red again even the classical writers of antic roman and greek times considered the Veneti of today Britanny and the Veneti of today Italy as completely distinct peoples, with no evident cultural nor linguistic ties -
Click to expand...

Yes;
I also do not view the Adriatic Veneti and the Armorica Veneti to be directly connected;
Only connected in the broader Indo-European context; But of two diff. Indo-European branches;
With the Armorica Veneti being Keltic(Gauls) and the Adriatic Veneti being pos. Isolated or pos. Italic (maybe even Illyrian);

Polybius - Book II/XVII
The part of the plain near the Adriatic had never ceased to be in the possession of another very ancient tribe called the Veneti, differing slightly from the Gauls in customs and costume and speaking another language.

The reason the Veneti differ only slightly from the Gauls in customs and costume is the broader Indo-European context;
As is also noted in Archaeology of the Urnfield Este culture complex;

The language is Indo-European but neither Italic or Keltic but with several similarities to both;

J. Gvozdanovic - Uni. Heidelberg
http://www.jolr.ru/files/(83)jlr2012-7(33-46).pdf
Discussions about the linguistic classification of Venetic among the western Indo-European languages gear towards two major solutions: either treating Venetic as a relatively archaic Indo-European language with some similarities, but not unequivocally attributable to any other western Indo-European group (cf. especially Krahe 1950 and Polomé 1966), or assuming a close connection with Italic (especially Beeler 1949, or Euler 1993, who considers Venetic to be closely connected with Italic, but with archaic morphological traits).

R. E. Wallace - Uni. Massachusetts Amherst
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~mimno/papers/venetic.pdf
 
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