Veneti

[Sile]

this L513 seems very close in time to Y-R1b-L21 typical of the Isles and Brittany so it is not so informative - its distribution spite the biases of genalogy seems at first Scottish and Irish, but common among Atlantic Celts as a whole - I don't see what very special and peculiar we can base upon this SNP???
I agree its birth has nothig to do with Normans - by the way it is absent in South France and South of it, and absent East germany on the continent (someones in Sweden) -
nothing to link it to this very thread (Veneti as an extent maritime people overspanning all Europe and more) except the celtic ones, in fine...


concerning Phoenicians I knew (to be more precise: I red! as you) they did trade in the Isles and in Brittany - it doesn't link their ethny to the Veneti's one - I spoke about them because I have some headache when I red unbased linguistic links made by some people - I hope you or somebody else are not giving birth to a new thesis where Phoenicians and Veneti are two branches of the same close family? in this thread I don't know what is coming next time about Veneti, Wendes, Amber, rambling ancestor, Van lake, R1b-R1a... sure I'm growing too old!

to make it clear, I do not believe any of the veneti/venedi are linked to each other regardless if strabo or tacitus says so

 

[piero]

Each people has an haplogroups pattern that is like a mosaic, so is not strange if Atlantic Veneti has both L513 and Z92. There is no mistake in its association.

 

[MOESAN]

Each people has an haplogroups pattern that is like a mosaic, so is not strange if Atlantic Veneti has both L513 and Z92. There is no mistake in its association.

sorry, but the mosaic you speak of is not decided by hazard: it needs some common life in a common place - Western Europe has some specific Y-R1a subclades - is the Z92 one of these specific ones, compared to other Y-R1a in West, rarer? because R1b-L21, is very western as center of gravity... you could also tell me the Veneti has a typical Y-J1 or J2 haplo??? based on what???
some surprises can occur in History, but to base an opinion only on unevident things is odd, isn't it?

 

[piero]

sorry, but the mosaic you speak of is not decided by hazard: it needs some common life in a common place - Western Europe has some specific Y-R1a subclades - is the Z92 one of these specific ones, compared to other Y-R1a in West, rarer? because R1b-L21, is very western as center of gravity... you could also tell me the Veneti has a typical Y-J1 or J2 haplo??? based on what???
some surprises can occur in History, but to base an opinion only on unevident things is odd, isn't it?

Yes, Z92 branch is specific for Brittany, despite rare. Look at the map (Please, a technical question: how can I enlarge my pics posted?)

 

[Sile]

Yes, Z92 branch is specific for Brittany, despite rare. Look at the map (Please, a technical question: how can I enlarge my pics posted?)
View attachment 6974

map is full screen for me

 

[Taranis]

Each people has an haplogroups pattern that is like a mosaic, so is not strange if Atlantic Veneti has both L513 and Z92. There is no mistake in its association.

Do you have any DNA samples from any one of these ancient Veneti ethnic groups to back up your hypothesis? I don't think so. Association does not automatically mean that they have to be connected, and the only evidence you have, if I may summarize your idea, you extrapolate the existence fo a "Venetic" maritime empire based on the association of an y-chromosomal haplogroup with (anachronistic) attestation of peoples that are either named "Veneti" (or vaguely similar to the name "Veneti", and in these cases you have demonstrated that you are dismissive of other, more probable etymologies), and you have no linguistic evidence other than that. No offense, but surely that is an extremely weak association.

 

[Sile]

Do you have any DNA samples from any one of these ancient Veneti ethnic groups to back up your hypothesis? I don't think so. Association does not automatically mean that they have to be connected, and the only evidence you have, if I may summarize your idea, you extrapolate the existence fo a "Venetic" maritime empire based on the association of an y-chromosomal haplogroup with (anachronistic) attestation of peoples that are either named "Veneti" (or vaguely similar to the name "Veneti", and in these cases you have demonstrated that you are dismissive of other, more probable etymologies), and you have no linguistic evidence other than that. No offense, but surely that is an extremely weak association.

the only ancient veneti markers I found are
ydna = I1b ...............not the I1b2 branch, which IIRC is also in basque and sardinian lands
mtdna = T2

with T2 still over 12% higher than any other parts in italy

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181945/
the ertruscan paper below says something on the "border" town od Adria ( shared with Veneti , which I doubt)


piero will also be getting information from below
http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/A...051/unrestricted/Final_Report_B10_Origins.pdf

where one theory is a lusatian theory

 

[piero]

the only ancient veneti markers I found are
ydna = I1b ...............not the I1b2 branch, which IIRC is also in basque and sardinian lands
mtdna = T2

with T2 still over 12% higher than any other parts in italy

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181945/
the ertruscan paper below says something on the "border" town od Adria ( shared with Veneti , which I doubt)


piero will also be getting information from below
http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/A...051/unrestricted/Final_Report_B10_Origins.pdf

where one theory is a lusatian theory

In the Prof. Carrera text you share I was quoted as Piero Favero for his exceptional guidance and insight about the ancient Venets but I was disappointed because the staff - despite having DNA haplogroup testing available - they did NOTHING with this tests. So no scientific article was outcome of this theorical study.
Please, do you have time range of mtdna T2 and ydna I1b? Did they match Lusatian culture? (1300-500 b. c.) https://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com...3-i2-urnfield-italic-tribes-536-depopulation/

 

[Sile]

In the Prof. Carrera text you share I was quoted as Piero Favero for his exceptional guidance and insight about the ancient Venets but I was disappointed because the staff - despite having DNA haplogroup testing available - they did NOTHING with this tests. So no scientific article was outcome of this theorical study.
Please, do you have time range of mtdna T2 and ydna I1b? Did they match Lusatian culture? (1300-500 b. c.) https://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com...3-i2-urnfield-italic-tribes-536-depopulation/

yes that for I1b and t2 mtdna is maciano numbers on italian regional haplogroup tread plus
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2001.6520153.x/pdf

 

[MOESAN]

Yes, Z92 branch is specific for Brittany, despite rare. Look at the map (Please, a technical question: how can I enlarge my pics posted?)
View attachment 6974

thanks for the map but we saw it before!
a very curious map : with tribes names added as Wendi, Vendi in far enough places (I think here in the northeastmost ones) -
a spot in West, just in tHe middle of the Channel: a drown ancient pLace? or Jersey Guernesey? (isles settled by Celts and Normans of at least partial Viking ancestry) or an attempt to show a common "micro-spot" shared by people of Brittany and S-W England of today??? could you tell me in what survey you found traces of this specific R1a-RZ92 in Brittany? (what doesn't prove it was there at old Veneti times -
what would have some value would be common Y-SNPs in the 3 supposed centers of Veneti TODAY al least and, better, AT THE TIMES IN DISCUSSION
I see the name: SLOVENSKA/ is somebody thinking the VEN of SLOVENSKA could have something in common with the so exploited radical VEN of VENETI?? SLOV-EN-SKA

 

[Sile]

thanks for the map but we saw it before!
a very curious map : with tribes names added as Wendi, Vendi in far enough places (I think here in the northeastmost ones) -
a spot in West, just in tHe middle of the Channel: a drown ancient pLace? or Jersey Guernesey? (isles settled by Celts and Normans of at least partial Viking ancestry) or an attempt to show a common "micro-spot" shared by people of Brittany and S-W England of today??? could you tell me in what survey you found traces of this specific R1a-RZ92 in Brittany? (what doesn't prove it was there at old Veneti times -
what would have some value would be common Y-SNPs in the 3 supposed centers of Veneti TODAY al least and, better, AT THE TIMES IN DISCUSSION
I see the name: SLOVENSKA/ is somebody thinking the VEN of SLOVENSKA could have something in common with the so exploited radical VEN of VENETI?? SLOV-EN-SKA

maybe you need to check my second link on post 307 ....between pages 112 and 122 to find any brittany names which claim veneti descent..........but then again, they will be modern examples

 

[Sile]

In the Prof. Carrera text you share I was quoted as Piero Favero for his exceptional guidance and insight about the ancient Venets but I was disappointed because the staff - despite having DNA haplogroup testing available - they did NOTHING with this tests. So no scientific article was outcome of this theorical study.
Please, do you have time range of mtdna T2 and ydna I1b? Did they match Lusatian culture? (1300-500 b. c.) https://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com...3-i2-urnfield-italic-tribes-536-depopulation/

there is DNA results in the paper .............34 born and bred in venice, and the other 122 born and bred in the veneto

IIRC page 122


the 2005 report was inconclusive.........a new one was done by natgeno which also included the 2005 sample in 2010.
the 2011 report for the 2010 tests........ states that the STR of these 156 Veneti tests match ............for every 4 matches with northern anatolia, there is 1 match for lusatian/baltic and zero for brittany and wales.

It also states, that the STR match western-indian samples as well as southern german samples

Go ask Natgeno for the spreadsheet that hold the data

 

[Sile]

venice Dna 2005-2010

163 samples of which 7 where discarded leaves 156.
3 generations plus on both sides of family and sampler had to be over 18 years of age.



STR done on samples reveals

see below





I cannot get natgeno spreadsheet, but maybe pierro can


ancestrals STR match south side of danube river in germany and from Gujarat india

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarat


I think we can lay to rest a brittany or baltic association with the adriatic veneti ..........what do you think

 

[MOESAN]

maybe you need to check my second link on post 307 ....between pages 112 and 122 to find any brittany names which claim veneti descent..........but then again, they will be modern examples

??? not understood: no precise information concerning Veneti of Aremorica linked to present thread
thanks nevertheless

 

[Sile]

??? not understood: no precise information concerning Veneti of Aremorica linked to present thread
thanks nevertheless

correct, why you going against me if I maintain that brittany veneti are not associated with adriatic veneti?

Jean Dru'ze from brittany claims he is from Veneti descent...thats the tested person ( one of ) that Nat-geno tested.
You need to correct some of these brittay people to say they are Gaulish and more likely related via cornwall and wales than with southern france or northern italy

 

[MOESAN]

correct, why you going against me if I maintain that brittany veneti are not associated with adriatic veneti?

Jean Dru'ze from brittany claims he is from Veneti descent...thats the tested person ( one of ) that Nat-geno tested.
You need to correct some of these brittany people


I did not came against you I just answered making some points about facts - no problem with you -
I agree there is no recent PROVED peculiar link (say since 2500 years) between all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) - only evident link: ancient common I-Ean origin - I say there too much people without serious knowledge affirming things without any basis -
now, this thread is of no more interest to me except if a new serious theory arose with well based facts and not only ancient trade routes and some phonetic hazards
no offense

 

[piero]

correct, why you going against me if I maintain that brittany veneti are not associated with adriatic veneti?


I agree there is no recent PROVED peculiar link (say since 2500 years) between all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) - only evident link: ancient common I-Ean origin - I say there too much people without serious knowledge affirming things without any basis -
now, this thread is of no more interest to me except if a new serious theory arose with well based facts and not only ancient trade routes and some phonetic hazards
no offense

Do you have any evidence and scientifical proof to PROVE that all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) have NO COMMON roots? No, you don't have any. I challenge you to find just one proof...

 

[MOESAN]

Do you have any evidence and scientifical proof to PROVE that all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) have NO COMMON roots? No, you don't have any. I challenge you to find just one proof...

I'm a bit surprised by the tone of your post -
in a court of justice, it is the "demander" who has to prove the validity of the facts he evocates - here I'm like a "defender", it's not to me to prove something - I cannot DISPROVE what you say - I just say you DO NOT PROVE what you say and for me, according to common sense and historic facts, your very distorded theory is without any proof - MAYBE SOMETIME MORE SOLID FACTS AND LINKS BETWEEN THESE FACTS WILL PROVE YOU WERE RIGHT BUT TODAY IT IS NOT THE CASE - when it occurs, I shall accept without any vexation nor sadness - facts are facts - by the way, I never said these diverse Veneti have no common roots; I said that i think their roots and the subsequent separation between them are surely old enough and they lost early enough contact between them, at least concerning Brittany Veneti -
NO OFFENSE, but please, keep cool...

 

[Sile]

Do you have any evidence and scientifical proof to PROVE that all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) have NO COMMON roots? No, you don't have any. I challenge you to find just one proof...

They do not genetically match each other.

The Wends are pre-germanic vandals .........there was no Venedi in wendish lands

The brittany veneti people are a Gaulish and brittonic mix ....only seen in this area of france

Natgeno, confirmed , as i attached the only Genetic link is with anatolia ( pre arrival of the turkic people )

 

[Sile]

Do you have any evidence and scientifical proof to PROVE that all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) have NO COMMON roots? No, you don't have any. I challenge you to find just one proof...

@ piero

direct it at moesan.......i did not write this