Very advanced Indoeuropeans - cows reveal their history! :-)

[Drax]

Why are you sorry?

For to have contributed to derail this very interesting thread, and thank you for to have reply and explain better than myself my own point of view, lol (I don't see where Lebrock see a contradiction for these isolated blond Papu who are a tiny minority; I make a parallel about a the weak numbers of the so-called WHG blue eyes/brown skin mixed with 2 others big populations, not the very big majority of invaders blue eyes/blond hairs Indo-Europeans, and the Inuit office is still dark, sun or not...but whatever);

I'm 100% agree with you (but also with the interesting post by Silesian)...thanks again for this thread.

edit: I also really like your comment and the picture you have posted in your first post; my favorite of mine, this Iranian girl (look very Nordic):



like you can see, very tanned by the strong sun of Iran.

 

[Rethel]

For to have contributed to derail this very interesting thread,

Drax,
you don't must be sorry, because we didn't understand each other!

I only wanted ask Lebrok, to create new thread, which would contain
mostly yours, mine and Lebrok's posts about spreading fair genes,
either from this thread and from this one which I linked.

Your posts are very very precious and I wish you continiue, especially,
that you have some fresh looking on that matter. Please, write!

But as you can see, Lebrok, rather want me expell from this forum, than
do something usefull as combine our posts together on this theme in some
one separate thread, in which his point of view would be massacre

 

[Drax]

Okay no problem, and thank you very much for your words, but to be honest I'm little tired to repeat each time my opinion; I'm not fluent in english, so for me it's a little complicated; that take too much of my energy lol.

Thank you again for these threads, but also for your clear logical arguments; your great sense of humor and your very humble attitude about sciences (sadly I can't say the same thing about some peoples in this forum).

 

[Rethel]

but to be honest I'm little tired to repeat each time my opinion;

So you see the biggest problem
But it must be done by this way
I fill the same, but someone must do this job...

I'm not fluent in english, so for me it's a little complicated; that take too much of my energy lol.

Exactly the same is in my case!
But practice maketh master

clear logical arguments;

I'm trying my best.
Unfortunatly, people usually don't like logic. :sad-2:

your great sense of humor

I am really thankfull, that you mentioned this.
At least and finally someone!

It seems to me, that almost everybody on this
forum is without any basic sense of humor.
It is really very strange...

 

[LeBrok]

Thank you again for these threads, but also for your clear logical arguments; your great sense of humor and your very humble attitude about sciences (sadly I can't say the same thing about some peoples in this forum).

I am really thankfull, that you mentioned this.
At least and finally someone!

Oh, get a room!

 

[Johannes]

True, but WHG was close to 100%. They're the source of that trait today. In the case of Central Asian IEs(Sintashta/Andronovo), like I said before they looked differnt from Yamnaya because they had a bunch of WHG, because they were immigrants from probably around Ukraine. It wasn't because of isolation.

You are speculating to the max here: yes you can have a lot of blue-eyed people but you will also have many green-eyed and brown eyed. Have you read about the Laws of Genetics? Its impossible to have almost 100% blue eyes! Blue eyes are a recessive gene! Its better to say -- the majority had blue eyes not almost 100%!

 

[Johannes]

Rethel I'm 100% agree with you; there are something completly wrong with these analysis; we talk about a minority (WHG) with a huge recessive trait (blue eyes) and dark skin (?) mixed with two different larger populations with brown eyes, and everybody end with light eyes ?

First there are no R1a in Yamna , so I doubt Yamna are the original proto-indo-europeans; we have found haplogroup R1b but also I2 among them; and their female lineages are for a good part Armenians, that sound like they (Yamna) are invaders and they have taken Caucasus wives (like they have done in various places, Iran, India etc...); in theory that could have changed theirs physical appearances; but that my point of view...; but this theory don't change something weird about this analysis; we know now, thanks Reich, that Yamna were near half WHG; yeah the same WHG with so-called 100% blue eyes...my question is very simple, how we don't have found more blue eyes; among a population half WHG ? there are also the fact that we don't have the haplogro9up Y of the Yamna folks tested for light hairs/eyes, so there are a problem to know their identity (I2 ? R1b ? etc...); Yamna were also close to modern North and east Europeans genetically (more than 50%) a population well known for to have light hairs and eyes.

Johannes, I'm agree with you, that don't exist a population with 100% of blue eyes, and according a previous study, this genes is very young (around 8000 BC); so among WHG, there were brown eyes.

How do you get Yamnaya culture that had "Armenians" for women??? The Allentoft article showed the Corded Ware population of women as H4=9%, U5=23%, J1=25%, K1=25%, T21-9%, and U4=9%; while the Yamnaya population of females as U5=50%, T2= 38% and U4=12%. Where do you get this Armenians DNA?

 

[Angela]

How do you get Yamnaya culture that had "Armenians" for women??? The Allentoft article showed the Corded Ware population of women as H4=9%, U5=23%, J1=25%, K1=25%, T21-9%, and U4=9%; while the Yamnaya population of females as U5=50%, T2= 38% and U4=12%. Where do you get this Armenians DNA?

Corded Ware is not Yamnaya. Figure out which mtDNA clades were European hunter-gatherer and which were from the Near East. Learn about f3 and f4 stats and what they mean and can reveal, as well, of course, as ADMIXTURE.

READ HAAK ET AL:
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

AFTER you've read it comment in the appropriate threads, such as :
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-in-Europe?highlight=Massive+Migration+Steppe

The topic of this thread is the hypothesis, such as it is, that cows reveal the history of the Indo-Europeans.

This is for everyone, from now on, stay on topic.

 

[Johannes]

As Johannes said PIE (If we go by Yamna theory) were predominantly dark haired and eyed. A part of them moved to Northeast and Central Europe mixing with the EEF people there and becoming Corded Ware. Those were still rather Dark haired and eyed though in middle of the process of becoming lighter.

Than we have the Sintashta/Andronovo who were either migrants from CW OR just a geneticwise very similar group.

Those Andronvo people however were now by majority (60%) light haired and eyed (includes green eyes and brown hair).

Those Andronovo merged with BMAC and gave birth to the Indo_Iranians around what is modern day Turkmenistan, Uzebkistan/Northeast Iran and Southeastern portion of Kazakhstan.

And Aryan is the ethnic designation of just one branch, namely the Indo_Iranians.

Alan, you are on the right track: CW and Yamna populations were predominantly brown eyed and brown haired with probably light to sallow skinned tone and a minority green and blue eyed population. What happened is that many split into tribes and lived in isolation from each other. Some had more green eyed and blue eyed, while some had more brown-eyed. Eventually the populations became more lighter because of the aesthetic phenomenon -- meaning that blue eyes and light skin was more beautiful. Therefore they would multiply faster than brown eyed and dark skin.

 

[Angela]

^^READ post number 109. I have had enough of every thread being derailed into a discussion of phenotype by people obsessed with the subject. You're free to discuss it, but try to keep such discussions to the appropriate threads. There are many pigmentation threads in the Anthropology section. Even there keep the discussions civil and based on science. There are racist, monitored sites a plenty where Nordicists can indulge their fantasies.

Just generally, Johannes, you are projecting your preferences and subjective judgments onto other people. That's never a good idea.

 

[Johannes]

Le Brok,
I don't have enough time for next disscusion about
that, because about this allready exists a thread.

Once again, you gave arguments against your
own theory, for support my point of view and
you didn't even mention this!

I see, that you cannot accept that things simply are.
That there are not reason to exist for them, or that
they cannot exist because they... exist. You need
badly some quasi-religions belives, and you are so
deeply belive that you cannot see that you are by
yourself giving examples destroing your worldview.
This is so amazing for me.... really!

You mentioned theory of relativity. This is a very good
example like you are seeing things. You don't understand
something, but SOMEONE else understand, so you
belive that this is fact and truth - ergo you are really
religious! You are beliving (and ready to belive) in
something what you dont understand, or what does
not have any sens for you, because someone said so.

Why then are you laughting at christian people, who
are beliving in much more reasonable things than you?
They can at least understand things in wich they belive.
You cannot.

p.s. I can imagine relativity, this is no problem for me.

Thats a good point Rethel: Nietzsche once said that rationalists or scientists are the same as believers in religion in that they put all their trust into "science." So yeah: people dont understand some things about science but they fight tooth and nail about it without understanding it! Science eventually is religion!

 

[Johannes]

For the Aryans, if we trust academic study:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranian_languages

So closer to the Western Siberian part/Russian and Ural river.

@Rethel



Yes, I have never understand these kind of articles from genetics scientifics like they have done a news discoveries...I find that direspectful for Historians and Archeologists (who have already done this works since the 50"s, and way before for the theory).

Yes I agree Drax: but "Aryans" must have traveled south from the Urals and eventually ended in Iran, Afghanistan, and India. The evidence of Russian archeologists is that the Aryans left Southern Russia and headed towards the south because of serious droughts and because they heard or discovered there were civilizations to the south (Babylonia) to conquer.

 

[Angela]

Yes I agree Drax: but "Aryans" must have traveled south from the Urals and eventually ended in Iran, Afghanistan, and India. The evidence of Russian archeologists is that the Aryans left Southern Russia and headed towards the south because of serious droughts and because they heard or discovered there were civilizations to the south (Babylonia) to conquer.

Last time I checked archaeology was a science. I thought you had no faith in science? You'd better stick with " ARYANS dropped out of an alien spaceship" so that you're consistent.

Or do you believe in science only when it supports your pre-conceived notions?

 

[Rethel]

Science eventually is religion!

Even worse

For exaple, some yerars ago, they belived as a fact, that blond colour
existed from 100.000 years... if you would not share there view, you
would be calld stupid and ignorant.

10-20 years ago they belived, that this happened 10.000 years ago.
If you would disagree - you would be called syupid and ignorant.

Now they are claiming that it happend spotaniously in many small places in
Scandinavia and West Europe 4000 or less years ago among very dark people.
If you disagee - the same as above.

They always have absolute truth, even if it is constantly changing.

They don't even bother, that many things from historical records dont fit.
They try to ignore this, because they have some theory which must be truth,
because they read so many papers... so they must always repeat after
some one else - and always they are having two main points: evolution
is true and is making miracles, and everything comes from nothing.

Faster you can came to conclusion with some radical muslim than with them.
They don't even listen - mostly they are talking with themselves creating in
their minds wishfull picture about what you are actually talking and thinking.

As we have two examples in this thread.

 

[Drax]

Alan, you are on the right track: CW and Yamna populations were predominantly brown eyed and brown haired with probably light to sallow skinned tone and a minority green and blue eyed population. What happened is that many split into tribes and lived in isolation from each other. Some had more green eyed and blue eyed, while some had more brown-eyed. Eventually the populations became more lighter because of the aesthetic phenomenon -- meaning that blue eyes and light skin was more beautiful. Therefore they would multiply faster than brown eyed and dark skin.

Maybe for Yamna; but not for the ancestors of CW; for example their ancestors; the Globular Amphora Culture (probably the first proto-Indo-Europeans; around 3.400-2.800); they have 80% of light hairs and eyes (TYR and HERC2) according Haak 2015 (edit: according Wilde Sandra), you can see the link her (their name is KAK):

http://eurogenes.blogspot.fr/2015/03/population-genetics-of-copper-and.html

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQbVVHNjA2Um1FLXM/view?pli=1

Yes I agree Drax: but "Aryans" must have traveled south from the Urals and eventually ended in Iran, Afghanistan, and India. The evidence of Russian archeologists is that the Aryans left Southern Russia and headed towards the south because of serious droughts and because they heard or discovered there were civilizations to the south (Babylonia) to conquer.

Yes, I know that, my point was more about their homeland/place of the Aryans before their migrations/invasion.

 

[Rethel]

Maybe for Yamna; but not for the ancestors of CW; for example their ancestors; the Globular Amphora Culture (probably the first proto-Indo-Europeans; around 3.400-2.800); they have 80% of light hairs and eyes (TYR and HERC2) according Haak 2015, you can see the link her (their name is KAK):

Very good job!:cool-v:

Do you have some similar data about for example Samara Culture or Dniepr-Donets?
It would be interesting.

 

[Angela]

Even worse

For exaple, some yerars ago, they belived as a fact, that blond colour
existed from 100.000 years... if you would not share there view, you
would be calld stupid and ignorant.

10-20 years ago they belived, that this happened 10.000 years ago.
If you would disagree - you would be called syupid and ignorant.

Now they are claiming that it happend spotaniously in many small places in
Scandinavia and West Europe 4000 or less years ago among very dark people.
If you disagee - the same as above.

They always have absolute truth, even if it is constantly changing.

They don't even bother, that many things from historical records dont fit.
They try to ignore this, because they have some theory which must be truth,
because they read so many papers... so they must always repeat after
some one else - and always they are having two main points: evolution
is true and is making miracles, and everything comes from nothing.

Faster you can came to conclusion with some radical muslim than with them.
They don't even listen - mostly they are talking with themselves creating in
their minds picture about what you are actually talking and thinking.

As we have two examples in this thread.

You might want to take a course in the history of science and one on the scientific method, as well. It is based on data. As the data improves the conclusions change. Is this really news to you?

Since you purport not to believe in it stop quoting results from scientific papers when it suits your agenda. That is completely inconsistent and illogical.

If posters continue to post off topic comments I will close the thread, or I'll just remove the posts.

If you wish to discuss the pigmentation of the Indo-Europeans go to the appropriate threads.

 

[Rethel]

You might want to take a course in the history of science and one on the scientific method, as well. It is based on data. As the data improves the conclusions change. Is this really news to you?

For what? To know, that everything, what science was claiming in past decades it was nonsense?

No, I don't want ruind my credit in science.

Since you purport not to believe in it stop quoting results from scientific papers when it suits your agenda. That is completely inconsistent and illogical.

It wasn't the point.
But, nevermind.

 

[Rethel]

If posters continue to post off topic comments I will close the thread, or I'll just remove the posts.

If you wish to discuss the pigmentation of the Indo-Europeans go to the appropriate threads.

Maybe you didn't get it yet, but the pigmentation is the main theme from the very beginnig.

Not the cows, as you trying to endeavor.

 

[Drax]

Very good job!:cool-v:

Do you have some similar data about for example Samara Culture or Dniepr-Donets?
It would be interesting.

No, sadly I have just this link; which curiously nobody seem take in count (I guess that don't fit well with their agenda).

Except that, 100% agree with you and Johannes about the zealoutry for the science; I really like your examples about hair colors lol.