Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

mihaitzateo said:
If you think Muntenia is lowlands, how about Netherlands : ) ?
Depends what you are understanding by most. If you understand by most more than 50% and flat what is below 100m altitude,that is possible.

Here is the physical map of Muntenia:
http://www.locatiicazare.ro/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/hartaTURISTICA-muntenia.jpg
Is very possible that 50% or more from the land of Muntenia is lowlands/plains.
Depends what is considered plains,now. Ploiesti is considered in the plains or in the hills?
Pitesti? I think Pitesti is considered to be in the hills.
The origin of the name comes from the mountains:
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntenia#Originea_numelui

If you go from Bucharest to Giurgiu, you will notice that even in these "flat lands" some villages are having hills near them.
Not even Bucharest is on pure flat land, we have Dealul de la Universistate :) , Dealul de la Sincai/Tineretului metro station , dealul de la Cotroceni and so on :) .
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dealul_Spirii
:)
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dealul_Mitropoliei
:) :)
https://dreamtrips.ro/2011/05/palatul-cotroceni.html

So as you can see, Bucharest is not actually in pure flat lands but in a small hills area!
Did not number the hills from Bucharest to check if there are 7 as in Rome, but who knows ;) .
Click to expand...

To be fair I'm not quite familiar with most of Muntenia, but on a map it just looks flat. I know that it's supposed to be mountainous around Sinaia, but that seems like a small portion of the total land.
When I visit Bucharest from Iasi, I usually go straight down through Vaslui, Barlad, Focsani, Buzau and then Bucharest. It's a very plainy view.
 
JajarBingan said:
To be fair I'm not quite familiar with most of Muntenia, but on a map it just looks flat. I know that it's supposed to be mountainous around Sinaia, but that seems like a small portion of the total land.
When I visit Bucharest from Iasi, I usually go straight down through Vaslui, Barlad, Focsani, Buzau and then Bucharest. It's a very plainy view.
Click to expand...
Well come to Bucharest via Targu Neamt - Piatra Neamt - Cheile Bicazului - Brasov - Sinaia - Ploiesti :) . Are 565km.
You will see plains only till Pascani and some from Ploiesti to Bucuresti.
 
Until quite recently, almost the entire Wallachian plain was covered by a dense forest, the Codrii Vlasiei have been much more bigger than that,covering also the plains from Buzau,except for the eastern end,Baragan,who was mostly steppe .



The forest area stretched south of the Danube ,in Bulgaria there is the Deliorman,south of the Romanian Teleorman county,both coming from Turkish Crazy Forrest,because there were too many hajduks in that area.



That's why,for instance,the Cumans had only settled along the Baragan and SE Moldavia, towards the Danube where they are recorded.
Most of the forest was cleared for agriculture during the Communist period.



This clip speaks about the stopping of the Ottoman advance into the "thick Vlasia Forest."



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9RoBspQiOiE
 
Another thing,especially the western part of the plain has very rich salt deposits(place names like Slatina proves),these are very important for sheep raising.


On the Danube shore,there was a fortress,city,towards Baragan,attested very early in Wallachia,called Orasul de Floci,Cetatea de Floci or Targul de Floci(Fleece Town,Fleece Fortress),that was the main market for sheep products.


The shepherds came from the Southern Carpathians and drove their sheep on the Baragan pastures, close to the city.
A very near place is called Vadu Oii,Sheep's Ford.


In the town was born Michael the Brave.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Transhumance_ways_of_the_Vlachs.jpeg



http://mjialomita.ro/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/DSC_0045.jpg



https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...Yj24BsbIWZhLYy4WT0ymt9mKGwlon_8_bWIaYx7k7ngRk

https://adevarul.ro/assets/adevarul.ro/MRImage/2015/08/24/55db339df5eaafab2cdfd605/646x404.jpg
 
Dorianfinder said:
The article concludes with the following remarks:
The evidence strongly suggests that Albanian Aromanians’ globalising
identity confers an advantage to them over non-Aromanian Albanians. By renouncing a
local identification in favour of one associated with more powerful States (Romania and
Greece), that is, associated with ideas distant in space and time and therefore mystical
and unchallengeable, they create access to scarce social, economic, political and cultural
resources while profiting from new opportunities in the Albanian transition process.
Besides creating a sense of exclusivity, they are able to shift identities: they can choose
between different modes of identification, or they can attribute distinct significance to
different identities in various situations, referring to their pre-communist situation if
opportune. This flexibility is an efficient and profitable strategy of adjustment to
different circumstances. It is undoubtedly not unique to the Albanian case. In contrast
to essentialist assumptions, I want to stress that it is the flexibility of identities that makes
people strong everywhere.
Sent from my BND-L21 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
And the conclusions are wrong because this paper is a pseudoscientific study. The only thing that people can learn from this so-called study is that in Albania does not exist a Greek minority, but this is something that we know long time before.
Until now, apart for your tactic of jumping from one branch to another and never responding directly to the questions asked, you have told us and shown things that are not true, including a fake map.
 
Another proof for heavy forestation, the Ottomans efforts to secure their big camp from ambushes,see the top of the page:



https://books.google.ro/books?id=6P...onstantin mihailovic about targoviste&f=false



This kind of tactics,to surprise the enemy in close field was something specific for all the Romanian states,for example the Wallachian victory at Posada or the battle from the Codrii Cosminului(Cosmin Forest),supported by the verb atine,that comes from Latin.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/aține#Romanian



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat...ile:Viennese_Illuminated_Chronicle_Posada.jpg



Unfortunately, the history books don't say nothing about the average person,who had akey role in these kind of wars.



Friedrich Wilhelm Bauer,1778,"The Wallachians are usually tall people,strong-build,with a very good temperament,they rarely have diseases,and the plague,so common toTurks ,doesn't show up here almost never".



Jean Luis Carras:"The Wallachians and Moldavians are usually tall and robust ".
 
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Wonomyro said:
I agree. The most of the admixture must have happened during the early middle ages, probably during the Second Bulgarian Empire.
Click to expand...


Despite the obvious regional isolation,the Romanians-Vlachs have kept very good connections between them.


For example,Ivanko has recruited in his army only "his fellow Vlachs", and "the Byzantine army refused to fight against(him)".


The Romanians-Vlachs from Bulgaria were a minority*,explaining why the Asens and Kaloyan were constantly seeking military support from the Wallachians and Cumans,located north of the Danube.


Kaloyan's title,The Emperor of Bulgarians and Vlachs has quickly switched to the Emperor of Bulgarians.


It is possible that,some of the Romanians-Vlachs that participated in the revolt didn't accept the dual ethnicity, proposed by the Asens from the start.


Another important thing,the Asens have conquered today's Serbia,a territory inhabited by lots of Vlachs that still fought for the Byzantines, against the Crusaders,for instance.


*the logic is very simple,while the Cuman raids could be stopped using various methods,in the Danube-Sava frontier, the things were way more complicated-the Hungarians had a quite important state.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=nY...QAQ#v=onepage&q=ivanko recruit vlachs&f=false
 
And these Vlach networks stretched until the Adriatic,the Persian historian Rashid-al-Din,says about the,Kara Ulag (Wallachia)country in which the Mongols-Tartars had entered,among the karaulag(black Vlachs=Wallachians) rulers he mentions Mislav,Miselav,a name apparently Croatian or Serbo-Croatian,a variant from Mojslav.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mislav_of_Croatia



We do know that there were Vlach merchants in the Dalmatian shore,Dubrovnik, etc.,they traded with the Venetians.



The archeologists have found Mislav place,it has typical Romanian,Orthodox, artifacts.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezerenbam_and_Mișelav


EDIT

Ilaut country is Tara Oltului,today's Tara Fagarasului,for long time part of Wallachia,as well as the mountain parts from Sibiu,Hateg,Caras-Severin.
 
Further evidence:



"When,on March 18th,1436,from the fortress of Klis ...issued a charter to Vlachs from Cetina zhupa".



https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sour...FjAJegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3a4K9yS1IEmQ5rUnKIqBNo



"Family names in this charter are not Roman:...Prodanic".



Prodan appears in the document from 1220,where it is recorded the Vlachs names that participated at the foundation of the Zica monastery,in Kosovo.


I think this map is more than clear:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...000px-Byzantine_Empire_Themes_1025-en.svg.png
 
Vlach names from the Zica charter:

Latin

Bun,Bunila(bun-good)

Rug(rug-pyre)

Singur(singur-alone,the only)

Mic(mic-small)

Serban(serb-serf,already discussed)

Pacen(pace-peace)

Margheha(margea-glass bead)

Bucea(buca-cheek)

Dacian

Bucur(bucuros-happy)

Adapted Slavic,typically Romanian

Neagu,Neagoe,from a Slavic root *neg-,like in the inherited vocabulary,e switched to ea.

Radu,Slavic Rado-,typical u suffix generally,including the Slavic loans

Very beautiful and expressive names.
 
IMO,these are also Romanian,Latin:

Velean,Romanian Valean,Valeanu(vale-valley),Serbian kjelator-Romanian calator


Gela,feminine of Gelu,from Georgela,Georgelu



Dragasan,an interesting name ,Slavic root ,typical Romanian suffix, there is also a town called Dragasani,in Valcea county(a big center of the early Wallachian state).

Some Slavic names have been rhotacized,both the l-r and n-r:

Milos-Miros
Nenad-Nerad
 
The historical records prove the existence of totally different political structures in both Wallachia and Bulgaria.



If Kaloyan has accepted Pope's suzerainty and the Bulgarians had very good relations with the Hungarians,with constant intermarriages within the ruling class,not the same thing can be said about the Wallachians,where at the same period,the Walati(Vlachs) were the clear majority in the Catholic Diocese of Cumania,who relentlessly refused conversion.



The Hungarian chronicles speak about the extreme resistance of two Wallachian Vlach brothers, Litovoi and Barbat,who were involved with the king in land disputes, most likely in the Transylvanian part of Wallachia, both brothers were defeated in battles,the first,killed,the second,taken prisoner,then ransomed.



The name of these leaders proves again the military role of the Romanians-Vlachs,as they are recorded in the Byzantine documents,Litovoi is Slavic for Fierce Warrior, while Barbat,is the Romanian-Latin for man.



Later, Basarab,Vladislav(Vlaicu) and Radu I have defeated the Hungarians, clearly, and some of them,many times.
Vlaicu or Radu had convinced the Hungarian king to release the Bulgarian tsar Stratsimir,after his death,we have the inscription, the Wallachians had taken the Vidin Tsardom.



https://books.google.ro/books?id=YI...wFXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=walati vlachs&f=false



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_Cumania
 
Dreptul Valah said:
IMO,these are also Romanian,Latin:

Velean,Romanian Valean,Valeanu(vale-valley),Serbian kjelator-Romanian calator


Gela,feminine of Gelu,from Georgela,Georgelu



Dragasan,an interesting name ,Slavic root ,typical Romanian suffix, there is also a town called Dragasani,in Valcea county(a big center of the early Wallachian state).

Some Slavic names have been rhotacized,both the l-r and n-r:

Milos-Miros
Nenad-Nerad
Click to expand...


Interesting. You have names like Gela and Miros.
In Albanian is Gjela. ⟨gj⟩ is used in the Albanian alphabet for the voiced palatal plosive /ɟ/, though for Gheg speakers it represents /dʒ/. In the Arbëresh dialect, it represents the voiced velar plosive /ɡʲ/.
It`s a name used by catholics in North. The origine, i think is a short for Angjelina, Albanian form of the name Angela. Meanwhile for men the form of name is Gjelosh.
The origine of the name Miros is not Milos and it`s not slavic but probably Albanian. In Albania this name is pronunced Mirosh. In Albanian, sh represents [ʃ]. It is considered a distinct letter, named shë, and placed between S and T in the albanian alphabet.
There are different Albanian names with the suffix osh, ush and ash, thus bardh-bardhosh; kuq-kuqalosh; vogel-voglush, voglosh. The suffix is also used with names; thus Gjelosh, Belush, Marrash, Tanush, Mirush.


 
Milos and Nenad represent the local influence,I know the Serbs use them,not my concern anyways,unlike the other names, these two were not preserved in Romanian,that's why I put them in other part of the text.


Be careful what are you saying, I haven't forgot you.
 
Dreptul Valah said:
Milos and Nenad represent the local influence,I know the Serbs use them,not my concern anyways,unlike the other names, these two were not preserved in Romanian,that's why I put them in other part of the text.


Be careful what are you saying, I haven't forgot you.
Click to expand...

Nenad is clearly Slavic.
Yeah, i remember your story with your grandfather, furadan, etc, something like this.
 
The name Barbat possibly seems unusual, however,in Romanian, the word for man also means brave,courageous, daring.


An example, from the shepherd ballads,"are caini mai barbati",meaning,"he has dogs more manly ".

In Romanian ,the Latin masculus has been replaced by barbatus,bearded,and the form mascur only means a male pig.

The beard as a sign of manliness was probably adopted in the frontier army from the Danube,where many Paleo-Balkanics were enlisted.

IMO,this is related to another clearly military semantic shift,Latin falx,falces,a kind of weapon,very used by the Dacians,Thracians and Illyrians, turns to Romanian falca,a jaw.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falx


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/falcă
 
Mountains seen from Bucharest.

JajarBingan said:
Most land is flat.
Click to expand...
Not realy. This is what we see from the center of Muntenia. :grin:
Muntenia deserves its name.

m3_40021300.jpg
 

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