Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

[Aspar]

I'm not saying that all of them died out, but it looks they had a bad survival rate and were completely assimilated. Not just were they socially and economically worse adapted, but their sense of ethnosocial identity was also weakened.

As for Vlachs, the Vlachs are exactly what I described before, the people which became specialised herders, pastoralists, of the mountains and valleys and, to a large degree, lost the other aspects of Balkan Romance life and identity. You can also follow that by many of their agricultural terms being Slavic. Why so? Because they had given up on some of the most basic aspects of settled life from a more developed sedentary culture.

The expansion of Vlachs being clearly associated with the transhumance and specialised pastoralism in many regions of their later appearance.

We also have accounts of some of the original Romance population, which, when first encountering the Slavs, tried to impress them by telling the newcomers that they are "Roman citizens", for which these tribals had just laughs. The Romans caught in the open, if the tribals let them live, usually had to become subordinates. We have similar accounts from the Rhenish area by the way.

So the only people with a strong sense of identity were also more clan and tribal oriented pastoralists and at least the core, even if not all of them, are likely to have lived that way for longer. Which also explains the relative founder event of the surviving Romance core.

But we might get a better understanding with more ancient DNA, I would like to get the earliest Vlach remains available from different regions to get sampled and to compare them against each other and different neighbours. This might help to identify a potential core and founder population of the kind I have it in mind, around which other people and small Romance groups from other areas might have grouped.

The Romans and the Latin speaking populations lived in the cities. All the rest who weren't latinised nor called themselves Romans were rural and became ancestors to people such as the Albanians.
Why would a fully Latinised population call8ng themselves Romans live in the mountains far from the cities even way before the Avars and the Slavs?
Yes, the city populations did have a bad survival rate and that's why you will find that all Eastern Romance populations have a common ancestors that started expanding not earlier than 900 AD.
So it was a small group that escaped or for some other unknown circumstances was spared from destruction.
Do we know what was the main economical activity of the Balkan Romans in the late antiquity?
I somehow doubt that was the agricultural activity.
On the other hand the Vlachs have only Latin inherited vocabulary for metals, mining and domestic animals hence I think their ancestors were more involved in mining and animal husbandry than agriculture.

 

[Riverman]

The Romans and the Latin speaking populations lived in the cities. All the rest who weren't latinised nor called themselves Romans were rural and became ancestors to people such as the Albanians.
Why would a fully Latinised population call8ng themselves Romans live in the mountains far from the cities even way before the Avars and the Slavs?
Yes, the city populations did have a bad survival rate and that's why you will find that all Eastern Romance populations have a common ancestors that started expanding not earlier than 900 AD.
So it was a small group that escaped or for some other unknown circumstances was spared from destruction.
Do we know what was the main economical activity of the Balkan Romans in the late antiquity?
I somehow doubt that was the agricultural activity.
On the other hand the Vlachs have only Latin inherited vocabulary for metals, mining and domestic animals hence I think their ancestors were more involved in mining and animal husbandry than agriculture.

Your last sentence is in agreement with what I said, that they were primarily doing animal husbandry as transhumant pastoralists, with only minimal agricultural. That allowed them to escape the Slavs in the lowlands and occupy a different niche, like its very evident in Romania, in the early period. They then could harass and raid the lowland people, which allowed them to become dominant in various counties.

It clearly looks like they were simply Romanised Balkan pastoralists, which lived in close proximity to the Proto-Albanians, I mean the core group of the Southern Vlachs, and then they expanded.

As for the language, we know that there are various more specific pastoralist groups, which e.g. speak Slavic dialects, the Ruthenian subdivisions and Moravian Vlachs might serve as an example. Therefore its easy to imagine that a related group to Proto-Albanians, but more mixed with other Romanised Balkan people, adopted a Romance dialect.

And then this Southern Vlach core group expanded over other Romanised people in particular, to which they could connect more easily, and which fled to their highland communities, when the lowland networks broke down.
When the Vlachs started to get more dominant, even many Slavs fled or just joined them for protection.

In Bulgaria that didn't work out because of the Bulgar elite being the primary element of military and political strength, whereas in Romania the Vlachs were more unchallenged by other people and had just to deal with the lowland Slavic farmers.

I don't know how much Vlachs were involved in mining, but the more specialised Medieval mining was mostly done by Germans throughout the whole Carpatho-Balkan sphere, even down to Albania and Bulgaria. But I guess there was some autonomous mining done by Vlach communities, especially once they managed to control some counties again, then for sure. They needed to do that even more than specialised farming I guess, for which they adopted Slavic terms quite often, which is kind of symptomatic.

 

[Aspar]

It clearly looks like they were simply Romanised Balkan pastoralists, which lived in close proximity to the Proto-Albanians, I mean the core group of the Southern Vlachs, and then they expanded.

No, it doesn't look that way.
If they were that, they wouldn't have called themselves Romans btw.
If they were just romanised why haven't they kept their 'Balkan' ethnonym?
It's really simple, I don't know why would you strip them off their Roman legacy?
Some of the very first accounts of the Balkan Vlachs, mention a Vlach named Constantine Aurelian that was accused of raping a Greek girl.
Why would a simply romanised population totally out of the blue would called themselves Romans, a title granted to the citizens of the Empire and it's people still bear totally Latin derived names such as Aurelian which is totally unfamiliar name in the Eastern Orthodoxy, the Christian rite the Vlachs follow, six centuries after the destruction of the Roman city life in the inner Balkans?

Animal hasbundry wasn't something unknown to the Romans.
So why would that be a good argument for your thesis?
The whole plea of domestic animals is of Latin origin.
Why is that so if the Vlachs were isolated in the mountains?
And why is their language totally Latin derived language if they were isolated in the mountains?

Almost all authors agree they are remnants of the Roman Balkan population.
And I stick with them.

 

[Moses 26]

Kinda off topic but how common were Slavic names for vlachs ? For example in the 13 their vlach leaders in 13 century with slavic names

 

[Riverman]

No, it doesn't look that way.
If they were that, they wouldn't have called themselves Romans btw.
If they were just romanised why haven't they kept their 'Balkan' ethnonym?
It's really simple, I don't know why would you strip them off their Roman legacy?
Some of the very first accounts of the Balkan Vlachs, mention a Vlach named Constantine Aurelian that was accused of raping a Greek girl.
Why would a simply romanised population totally out of the blue would called themselves Romans, a title granted to the citizens of the Empire and it's people still bear totally Latin derived names such as Aurelian which is totally unfamiliar name in the Eastern Orthodoxy, the Christian rite the Vlachs follow, six centuries after the destruction of the Roman city life in the inner Balkans?

Animal hasbundry wasn't something unknown to the Romans.
So why would that be a good argument for your thesis?
The whole plea of domestic animals is of Latin origin.
Why is that so if the Vlachs were isolated in the mountains?
And why is their language totally Latin derived language if they were isolated in the mountains?

Almost all authors agree they are remnants of the Roman Balkan population.
And I stick with them.

I stick with that too, but the core likely was a special group among the Roman citizens of the Balkans, and be it just by terrain and occupation. They were not necessarily isolated before, even on the contrary, but likely had regular, intensive contacts with other Balkan Romance people, at the minimum with the administration and traders. We also know that the Vlachs lost the agnatic linguistic traits and kind of re-introduced a more patriarchal-patrilinear order secondarily.
This too suggests they were exposed to intensive Roman-Christian influences and were surely to be considered Romance people.

My point is entirely that the core group, around which the later ethnogenesis of the Vlachs happened, was likely a specific ethnosocial group of some sort WITHIN the Romance Balkans and probably somehow related to the Proto-Albanians or at least in their neighbourhood.

From a genetic standpoint, the modern Romanians have a lot more variation outside of the Albanian basic lineages, but, one has to say, there are too many Albanian derived lineages around, to neglect the proximity of the core groups in the South.

There are many instances of an assimilated people which take up many aspects of the colonisers life, but remain a people apart nevertheless. Even more so if they occupy a different social, economic and environmental niche.

 

[Dianatomia]

My post wasn't really directed to the modern Greeks. It has to do more with the negative sentiment overall and nationalistic views and spirits that start appearing from the 18th century on.
From this stems the views that the Vlachs from Albania or other countries have nothing to do with the Vlachs from Greece and that the Vlachs in Greece are nothing more than latinised Greeks.
That's not true however and we can can systematically dismiss these claims starting with the language of the Vlachs. The Aromanians regardless where they live speak a common language that has a root not older than a thousand years.
The example with the Slavs follows the same logic.
The end result should have been hellenisation of all these non Greek populations and create a mono-ethnic compact mass.

The Vlachs in the Balkans may have common roots. But as they migrated around in the Balkans, they absorbed elements of indigenous people. I.e. a Vlach from Serbia would have some genetic affinity to Serbs.

 

[Riverman]

The Vlachs in the Balkans may have common roots. But as they migrated around in the Balkans, they absorbed elements of indigenous people. I.e. a Vlach from Serbia would have some genetic affinity to Serbs.

And Pre-Slavic people from the region as well, to point that out too. Like Serbs and Vlachs could have mixed with the same local people in regions outside of their core zone, from which their ethnogenesis started.

 

[Dianatomia]

And Pre-Slavic people from the region as well, to point that out too. Like Serbs and Vlachs could have mixed with the same local people in regions outside of their core zone, from which their ethnogenesis started.

Yes indeed. My point is that Vlachs are no longer genetically uniform, even though they had common cultural roots.

 

[Yetos]

The Vlachs(at least Aromanian) have no relation to the Roman legions. They originally lived where local population survived after the fall of the Danubian limes around 620AD. According to Florin Kurta and his maps where signs of life are found between 620 and 680(when the Bulgars came), this is:
South Greece, Albania and North Macedonia, Dalmatian coast and several coastal fortified cities like Thessaloniki. All bigger settlements besides in those areas were deserted and in ruins.

I find this view wrong.

for example, the kutsuk vlachs-Aromanians exist nearby Palaio-Pharsalos, Pharsallos was the area where Legio 4 Makedonica disband,
Vlachs in Central Makedonia exist in Veroia and Naousa. Both where cities build by ROMANS (Nova Augusta etc)

exclude the Kutsuk Vlachs, the rest are near via Egnatia mainly. and the little bit Northrn in Naissos (Nis)

Vlachs are not naval people, so not coastal cities.

 

[Yetos]

Yeah, yeah, it's the same with the Slavophone Greeks that were Greeks since time began but the evil Slavs slavicised them.
Propaganda par excellence from the the time of Cosma the 'Saint' who was proclaiming for the 'barbarian' Vlachs, Albanians and Slavs to change their barbarous tongue to Greek one.
We all know where this propaganda stems from but fortunately we have science today and some things can be easily refuted by just ancestry tests.
Not that this was a puzzle for a well educated and intelligent man who can tell the difference between apples and pears by analysing the language only.

I really do not understans what you want to say and why.

Yes, in a distance of around 40-60 km live 2 Aromainan communities that they have nothing common in genntics, with a possible meaning of not even intermix,
it is published in scientific books.

as for the Slavic admixture in Greeks, I personally never deny it, and as the results of genetics prove,
it is not the numbers of Fallmayer or Ignatiev's PanSlavism.

so plz think why you wrote this.
All data for the result are from Piazza a Genetist, and it is published by AUTH..

 

[Yetos]

Yes indeed. My point is that Vlachs are no longer genetically uniform, even though they had common cultural roots.

They were never a gentical uniform. but a cultural uniform. and by adoptation gain also the linguistic unity

 

[Yetos]

My post wasn't really directed to the modern Greeks. It has to do more with the negative sentiment overall and nationalistic views and spirits that start appearing from the 18th century on.
From this stems the views that the Vlachs from Albania or other countries have nothing to do with the Vlachs from Greece and that the Vlachs in Greece are nothing more than latinised Greeks.
That's not true however and we can can systematically dismiss these claims starting with the language of the Vlachs. The Aromanians regardless where they live speak a common language that has a root not older than a thousand years.
The example with the Slavs follows the same logic.
The end result should have been hellenisation of all these non Greek populations and create a mono-ethnic compact mass.

Aspar, as I SAID BEFORE the search is old, done by Italians in order to find Italian continuity, in it is written in AUTH introduction for genetic,
What I said is not changeable,
I SAID MORE SOUTH OF DANUBE. THAN NORTH OF DANUBE.
while kutsuk Vlachs are close to mainland Greeks.


The main difference among Aromani and Romanians in genetics is this .
Aromani do not share wide Slavic relativity admixture, less than modern Greeks, while Romanians do.
but both also do not share signifigant Italian admixture, while in Aromani may detect traces of Iberian and Atlantic

 

[Yetos]

No, it doesn't look that way.
If they were that, they wouldn't have called themselves Romans btw.
If they were just romanised why haven't they kept their 'Balkan' ethnonym?
It's really simple, I don't know why would you strip them off their Roman legacy?
Some of the very first accounts of the Balkan Vlachs, mention a Vlach named Constantine Aurelian that was accused of raping a Greek girl.
Why would a simply romanised population totally out of the blue would called themselves Romans, a title granted to the citizens of the Empire and it's people still bear totally Latin derived names such as Aurelian which is totally unfamiliar name in the Eastern Orthodoxy, the Christian rite the Vlachs follow, six centuries after the destruction of the Roman city life in the inner Balkans?

Animal hasbundry wasn't something unknown to the Romans.
So why would that be a good argument for your thesis?
The whole plea of domestic animals is of Latin origin.
Why is that so if the Vlachs were isolated in the mountains?
And why is their language totally Latin derived language if they were isolated in the mountains?

Almost all authors agree they are remnants of the Roman Balkan population.
And I stick with them.

The name Greek or Hellenas in East Roman was synonym of pagan so public execution fue to Theodosios and Diokleitianos CODEX.
The Greeks call themselfs as Romans, even today Turks call us Rum.
the return of Greek-Hellenas is after 1821, while in Turkey still are call themselfs Romioi.

The exonym Vlach is given to them by Slavs, from Germanic Wallac, their inner name Aromani, Armani Rama etc
Aromani call their language Aromani or Armanesti, only Megle Vlachs call it Blachisti, which means megle Vlachs were in Slavic majority territories.

Aromani Genetic pool is mainly Balkans, South of Danube, while traces of all Roman empire detected.
Aromani tribes may not even share common GENETICS although they lived at a distance of 50 km away,
Aromani is a cultural and linguistic group that comes from Roman citizenship.
Legionaires, Villa habitants, City class citizens
Aromani is a NOT pastoralist group but wider Roman society remnant,

 

[eastara]

I find this view wrong.

for example, the kutsuk vlachs-Aromanians exist nearby Palaio-Pharsalos, Pharsallos was the area where Legio 4 Makedonica disband,
Vlachs in Central Makedonia exist in Veroia and Naousa. Both where cities build by ROMANS (Nova Augusta etc)

exclude the Kutsuk Vlachs, the rest are near via Egnatia mainly. and the little bit Northrn in Naissos (Nis)

Vlachs are not naval people, so not coastal cities.

The Vlachs in the South West Balkans lived exactly where the local Roman population survived en masse. It may be true some population still lived in other areas, but it was maybe high in the mountains and away from main roads accessible on horseback. While in the South West Balkans some city culture still existed, they have working churches, etc.
So the Aromuns in Central Greece and Macedonia, as well the Latin speaking survivors in Dalmatia existed mainly because of that. The greatest accumulation of Roman legions was around the Danube, but all population evacuated after the fall of the limes, so no traces of them remained. The Vlachs in what was later Wallachia all came there from 12c, from the South of the Danube. The Vlachs have moved North during the Byzantine occupations and lived in Sofia and Nish regions and Northern Bulgaria after it was depopulated by the Pechenegs. After the restoration of the Bulgarian Empire, in which they took active part they had very close relation with the Kumans, and already had no objections settling in Wallachia, which at the time was a transit Kuman pasture.
The only hypothetical existence of Latin speaking population in the Early Medieval times North of the Danube was in Pannonia due to the forceful population relocation from the South by the Avars.

 

[Yetos]

The Vlachs in the South West Balkans lived exactly where the local Roman population survived en masse. It may be true some population still lived in other areas, but it was maybe high in the mountains and away from main roads accessible on horseback. While in the South West Balkans some city culture still existed, they have working churches, etc.
So the Aromuns in Central Greece and Macedonia, as well the Latin speaking survivors in Dalmatia existed mainly because of that. The greatest accumulation of Roman legions was around the Danube, but all population evacuated after the fall of the limes, so no traces of them remained. The Vlachs in what was later Wallachia all came there from 12c, from the South of the Danube. The Vlachs have moved North during the Byzantine occupations and lived in Sofia and Nish regions and Northern Bulgaria after it was depopulated by the Pechenegs. After the restoration of the Bulgarian Empire, in which they took active part they had very close relation with the Kumans, and already had no objections settling in Wallachia, which at the time was a transit Kuman pasture.
The only hypothetical existence of Latin speaking population in the Early Medieval times North of the Danube was in Pannonia due to the forceful population relocation from the South by the Avars.

That is what you do not understand,
Aromani ARE NOT FROM WALLACHIA
AROMANI ARE NOT ROMANIANS.
AROMANI ARE CULTURAL AND LINGUISTIC BEING. NOT GENETIC.
AROMANI ARE LOCAL SOUTH OF DANUBE POPULATION MAINLY
AROMANI HAS LITTLE SLAVIC ADMIXTURE (less than modern etnicities)

ROMANI HAVE SLAVIC ADMIXTURE.
ROMANI ARE POPULATIONS LATINISED NORTH OF DANUBE.
ROMANIANS ARE NOT AROMANIANS. (although due to common language mix very easy)

As for Sofia Bulgaria I do not know but Search around legions.

for example legio 4 Makedonika was in Roman Makedonia from Olympos to Nis Serbia, with 2 cities like Beroia and Nova Augusta as clearly Roman-Latin status disband in Thessaly and gave land to legionaires in Thessaly.
Legio 4 Makedonica turns Legio 4 Flavia Felix from wich spring all emperors of East Roman empire for centuries.

 

[Aspar]

The Vlachs in the Balkans may have common roots. But as they migrated around in the Balkans, they absorbed elements of indigenous people. I.e. a Vlach from Serbia would have some genetic affinity to Serbs.

Sure, I'm not denying that, it's expected to find variation on such a wide area.
Nevertheless, the Vlachs from Serbia are Romanians basically, while those from Greece, Albania and North Macedonia are Aromanians mostly and my reaction previously was on the comment that the Aromanians from these three countries have nothing common in genetics which is a pure lie.

 

[eastara]

That is what you do not understand,
Aromani ARE NOT FROM WALLACHIA
AROMANI ARE NOT ROMANIANS.
AROMANI ARE CULTURAL AND LINGUISTIC BEING. NOT GENETIC.
AROMANI ARE LOCAL SOUTH OF DANUBE POPULATION MAINLY
AROMANI HAS LITTLE SLAVIC ADMIXTURE (less than modern etnicities)

ROMANI HAVE SLAVIC ADMIXTURE.
ROMANI ARE POPULATIONS LATINISED NORTH OF DANUBE.
ROMANIANS ARE NOT AROMANIANS. (although due to common language mix very easy)

As for Sofia Bulgaria I do not know but Search around legions.

for example legio 4 Makedonika was in Roman Makedonia from Olympos to Nis Serbia, with 2 cities like Beroia and Nova Augusta as clearly Roman-Latin status disband in Thessaly and gave land to legionaires in Thessaly.
Legio 4 Makedonica turns Legio 4 Flavia Felix from wich spring all emperors of East Roman empire for centuries.

Why are you screaming? Of course the Aromanians developed somewhat different culture than the other Romance speaking ethnicities on the Balkans, but they are a result of the same process - surviving local population. An where did it survived the most - in the South West Balkans.
And yes, Sofia and its region was one of the first to be depopulated as was at the crossroad of raiding Barbarians. It was even mentioned in history books its citizen preferred to evacuate towards Thessaloniki even before the fall of the limes as they felt what's coming. Sofia lay in ruins for at least 2 centuries and no previous population survived, legionnaires, emperors or else.

 

[Aspar]

I really do not understans what you want to say and why.

Yes, in a distance of around 40-60 km live 2 Aromainan communities that they have nothing common in genntics, with a possible meaning of not even intermix,
it is published in scientific books.

as for the Slavic admixture in Greeks, I personally never deny it, and as the results of genetics prove,
it is not the numbers of Fallmayer or Ignatiev's PanSlavism.

so plz think why you wrote this.
All data for the result are from Piazza a Genetist, and it is published by AUTH..

You totally misunderstood what I wrote.
I have no interest about the 'Slavic' admixture of the Greeks. I've mentioned the Slavs who live in Greece though.
BTW, who are the scientists saying there is nothing common in genetics between the Vlachs from Greece and Albania?

 

[eastara]

You totally misunderstood what I wrote.
I have no interest about the 'Slavic' admixture of the Greeks. I've mentioned the Slavs who live in Greece though.
BTW, who are the scientists saying there is nothing common in genetics between the Vlachs from Greece and Albania?

The Aromanian Vlachs were isolated communities in the mountains subject to strong genetic drift, so may have completely different surviving haplogroups. As for the autosomal mix I bet all would be classified as 100% Balkanians as we are now at 23andME, for example.

 

[Aspar]

The Aromanian Vlachs were isolated communities in the mountains subject to strong genetic drift, so may have completely different surviving haplogroups. As for the autosomal mix I bet all would be classified as 100% Balkanians as we are now at 23andME, for example.

That might be true but still yDna is only around 1% of the total DNA.
All Vlachs in the Southern Balkans have common ancestors in the last thousand years.
And that can be easily observed with IBD matching.
As for yDna, here is one example where Yetos is very wrong:

J-Y197646 YTree

www.yfull.com

The Greek here is one very knowledgeable young lad who studies languages and is interested about the ethnography of mainland Greece mainly. He often translates old Ottoman registers and publish his findings on FB. As per his words his paternal village is hellenised Aromanian village. The Albanians on the other hand are Aromanians from Korçe.