Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

Without a doubt the main Vlach haplogroups were I2a
(it doesn't matter if it is inherited or not) and E-V13.


I2a scores 30% in the Moravian Vlach lineages and 40%
in the Serbs from Bosnia,a population with significant
Vlach background.The Vlachs that settled in Bosnia
came from Serbia,it is possible that the northen
groups of Vlachs had more I2a than the southern ones.


IF I2a was initially Slavic-only,it had spreaded into Croatian,
Serbian and Romanian-Vlach Dinarics,without consistently
altering the original phenotype or,in the case of Vlachs,
their ethnicity.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/figure/F2/


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm

Wouldn't J2 and R1b be quite significant to Vlach as well? Eupedia's data for the Aromuns are quite high in J2 and R1b. I suspect at least some element of the Romanian population would have such frequencies as well. Do you perchance have more access to y-dna studies for Vlachs and Romania Diurpaneus? I think it would be a helpful contribution when searching for the genetic composition of pre-Slavic Balkans. It seems some genes (particularly the R1a) in Romania can be linked quite strongly to Slavic people though, so we might focus on more isolated communities throughout the Balkans.
 
"[The Vlachs] never kept their word to anyone, not even to the ancient Roman Emperors. Having been attacked in war by Emperor Trajan and having been defeated totally, they were subdued and their King, named Decebal, was killed and his head was put on a pike and brought to the city of the Romans. These [Vlachs] are, in fact, the so-called Dacians, also called Bessians [Bessoi]. Earlier they lived in the vicinity of the Danube and Saos, a river which we now call Sava, where the Serbians live today, and [later] withdrew to their inaccessible fortifications. Relying upon these fortifications, they feigned friendship and submission to the ancient Roman Emperors and then swept down from their strongholds and plundered the Roman provinces. Therefore, the exasperated Romans crushed them. And these left the region: some of them were dispersed to Epirus and Macedonia, and a large number established themselves in Hellas."
the text from Kekaumenos, "
Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area", Elemér Illyés



For a Byzantine general like Kekaumenos, "along the Danube and Sava" obviously meant the land east of
Sirmium,towards Belgrade,Branicevo and Vidin.Sirmium,the most important Danubian town
for the Byzantines,a place of great strategic importance,especially in the relations with the
Hungarians,must have been eventually one of the main sources of informations for Kekaumenos.


The Byzantine military chief of Sirmium had the title of "strategos of Serbia",who was in charge
to defend a large section of the Danubian frontier,from this city until Vidin,that's why Kekaumenos
uses the words "along the Danube and Sava,WHERE NOW THE SERBS LIVE".
The Byzantines' most frequent name for the Hungarians was "Dacians",this,corroborated with
another geographical reference, the frontier of"the Danube and Sava",points that Kekaumenos obvioulsly places
the "Dacian" Vlachs, in the territory located north of the Danubian sector between Sirmium and Vidin,
in/near the Hungarian lands.For the Byzantines,the Hungarians and the Dacian Vlachs are "Dacians",
while the Bulgarians(with the core in the NE part of the country) and the Vlachs from the Haemus(Balkan
Mountains) are "Mysians".


But the Vlachs are also the "Bessi"from the Byzantine Empire,so the military mind conceives their
homeland in the contact zone with the Hungarian state,"along the Danube and Sava',to justify
the present "dispersion" and differentiation(Byzantine Bessi vs. Hungarian Dacians).


After Basil II's conquest of Bulgaria,the ecclesiastical structure is
reorganized in this territory,the seat of Vlach bishop was in Vreanoti,
today's Vranje,located in the
valley of Southern Morava,which is part of the "land of Bessi".
That's why Kekaumenos was definitely not the only Byzantine/Greek
who knew about the Vlach communities from this area.














"Komnena, like other Byzantine authoers, generally refers to the Hungarians as Dacians."
(Elemer Illyes,"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area")






from Paul Stephenson,"Byzantium's Balkan Frontier":


"Anna adds that they were inspired
by the treachery of the Dacians. The latter were clearly the
Hungarians;




"A glance at any map of the middle Byzantine empire at its ‘apogee’ in
1025 will show that Basil II exercised authority throughout the lands of
the southern Slavs, and the border of his empire ran west along the Sava
and Danube from Sirmium to the Black Sea, and south the length of the
Adriatic coast from Istria through Dyrrachium and into Greece."




"In 1018 the patrikios Constantine Diogenes was designated commander
in Sirmium and the neighbouring territories. The geographical
range of Constantine Diogenes’ powers is remarkable, and he seems to
have enjoyed de iure authority across a wide, if poorly defined region
which stretched from Sirmium at least as far as Vidin, and then south
into the mountains of Raska (modern Serbia) and Bosna (Bosnia). A seal
in the Dumbarton Oaks collection bearing the legend ‘Constantine
Diogenes, [. . .] strategos of Serbia’ can only be attributed to this character."


"Geza I pursued a more friendly policy towards Byzantium. He was
married, probably in 1075, to the daughter of the Byzantine aristocrat
Theodoulus Synadenus,3 and received at that time the famous crown
which bears (on the reverse) his portrait on an enamel plaque beneath
that of the emperor Michael VII Ducas, and beside the image of
Constantine Ducas the porphyrogennetos."




"After the Byzantine defeats at Bari and Mantzikert in 1071 imperial authority
was challenged throughout the empire and from beyond the frontiers.
The Hungarian Chronicle relates how Belgrade came under attack
from the Hungarian King Salomon, where the Bulgarian and Greek
defenders used ‘Greek fire’ to set light to the Magyars’ ships. To deflect a
second assault they appealed to the Pechenegs (Bisseni), upon whom the
Magyars inflicted great slaughter. The besieged city fell after three months,
and many of the inhabitants were put to the sword before Salomon, and
the dukes Geza and Ladislas marched on to Nis, seizing much plunder en
route. The situation was resolved by negotiation soon thereafter, but it seems
probable that Salomon was allowed to keep the former Byzantine outpost
of Sirmium (modern Sremska Mitrovica), which sat on the northern bank
of the Sava, opposite the residence of the bishop of Sirmium (at
Macvanska Mitrovica)"


"In the same
way, the peoples who occupied the various lands might be called
‘Bulgarians’ (Boulgaroi), although other names were used more frequently,
and with little concern for contemporary accuracy. Thus the
Bulgarians are often called Mysoi, Mysians (but not Moesians) because
they occupied the lands of the former Roman province of Moesia."


"The Vlach-Bulgar rebellion was provoked by an arbitrary imperial
decision to levy taxes. Choniates relates that, in order
to raise money to celebrate his marriage to the daughter of Bela III,
Isaac levied an extraordinary tax. This fell most heavily on the settlements
in the vicinity of Anchialus and the Haemus mountains where the
‘barbarians . . . . formerly called Mysians (Mysoi), and now named Vlachs
(Vlachoi)’, were provoked to rebel"










"The region between the Sava and the Danube was then ceded by
Michael VII to Geza, in 1075, so that he would secure an ally and save at least the region
east of Belgrade, which remained under Byzantine rule nearly until the collapse of the
empire in 1204."


"Confrontations between Hungary,
the Byzantine Empire and Bulgaria
for the Belgrade–Vidin Border Region
in the 9th-14th Centuries",Alexandru Madgearu














"Donja Ljubata is situated ca. 15 km west of Bosilegrad,
at the natural communication connecting this region
with the Vranje–Bujanovac Basin"


"Bowl from Davidovac, situated between Vranje and
Bujanovac, decorated with cogwheel tool and circular stamps, kept
in the National Museum in Vranje."




https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=...Rkf0FvA3bbw0h1SkTziVnA&bvm=bv.127984354,d.bGs


"Nadalje ,u njoj se prvi pu t spominju vlaški vjernici koji su raštrkani na čitavom područj u tearhiepiskopije , tak o reći na čitavom Balkanu . Za njih osniva i zasebn u episkopiju,poznat u ka o vlaška episkopija, koju Mathia s Gy6ni lokalizira na područj uBabune , sjeverno od Prilepa u blizini Velesa, gdje se nalaz e dva sela s imeno mGornj i i Donji Vranovci, a ta se episkopija naziva Vreanotes™ što se svakako prijemož e identificirati s Vranjem"

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=...WYwutMuq5OhguqRlg5Nwsw&bvm=bv.127984354,d.bGg

" According to a German historian, there apparently was a bishopric of "the Vlachs" with its residence at "Vreanoti" (Vranje) on the upper reaches of the Morava river"

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_3.htm
 
Last edited:
Autosomal STR markers maps from "Analiza genetica a
populatiilor umane de pe teritoriul Romaniei folosind markeri STR"




The genetic signature of the first map shows a wider(at least south of the Danube,
where it is also present very consistently in northern Serbia*,unlike the other maps)
distribution,with higher frequencies and density,suggesting an older origin.
In Romania it strongly resembles Dacia Traiana, while south of the Danube
it reminds of the Latin-speaking areas from the Balkans, during the Roman/Eastern Roman Empire.




*I'm sure that,if this set of genes is present in/near Novi Sad,there must be a further,
western,extension,which the map doesn't show it,into the traditional Serbian lands and beyond.


1.jpg

Balkan_Latin.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg


EDIT:


The Romanians have plenty more Balkanic genes,
but the study offers a few locations for comparison from south of
the Danube,Serbia has only two(Novi Sad and Kosovo),the
rest of the countries,only one each.
 
Last edited:
123.jpg


The eastern red spot stretches along the historical regions known as
Vlasca,Vlasia and Codrii Vlasiei(The Vlach Forest),these are Slavic
toponyms that testify the presence of the Romanians.


This analysis didn't use samples from Bucharest(the city had a very recent
population growth,during Communism,because of the intense industralization,
with lot of people coming from the north-eastern part of the country),
but from the surrounding rural area.


The Bulgarian samples come from Plovdiv,Komatevo area(Bulgaria 24.74941 / 42.14353),
which was also involved in the Bulgaro-Vlach movements started by Peter and Asen,
not to mention that Ivanko and Kaloyan(of Vlach origin,see "Cumans and Vlachs
in The Second Bulgarian Empire",pg.6*) were some of its rulers.
This military and demographic diffusion had ended with consolidation of the Second Bulgarian
Empire by Kaloyan.






*If Alexandar Nikolov tries to point to a Byzantinian origin of those Vlachs,he is wrong.
The rebellion had started in Haemus,a mountaineus region,because large numbers of Vlachs
and Bulgarians were affected by this sudden collection of taxes.
And those 40.000 Vlach and Cuman archers could had been hardly gathered from the
former Byzantine sentinels.

http://www.academia.edu/4388454/Kumans_and_Vlachs


"The Vlach-Bulgar rebellion was provoked by an arbitrary imperial
decision to levy taxes. Choniates (; trans.: –) relates that, in order
to raise money to celebrate his marriage to the daughter of Béla III,
Isaac levied an extraordinary tax. This fell most heavily on the settlements
in the vicinity of Anchialus and the Haemus mountains where the
‘barbarians . . . . formerly called Mysians (Mysoi), and now named Vlachs
(Vlachoi)’, were provoked to rebel"



"Once he had reached
Nisˇ, as we have seen, Frederick met with Stefan Nemanja and his brothers,
and had received envoys from Peter and Asen. Moreover, once the
German emperor had arrived at Adrianople, he once again approached
‘Kalopetrus’ who offered 40,000 Vlach and Cuman archers for an
assault on Constantinople, and once the city was taken, requested that
the emperor present him ‘with the imperial crown of the realm of
Greece (coronam imperialem regni Grecie)’.(Byzantium Balkan Frontier)








"Markeri STR autozomali
Un număr de 5777 probe biologice au fost împărţite în 4 macroregiuni istorice astfel:
Valahia - probe biologice recoltate de la un număr de 1910 persoane provenite din 14
din cele 15 județe ale regiunii: Argeş (259), Brăila (148), Buzău (10), Călăraşi (11),
Dâmboviţa (215), Dolj (288), Giurgiu (114), Gorj (154), Ialomiţa (117), Ilfov (113),
Mehedinţi (122), Olt (20), Prahova (331) şi Teleorman (8);"


"Nu exista diferente între Moldova si populatia din Bucuresti."





From "Byzantium's Balkan Frontier":


Peter and Asen came to Kypsella in spring  in search of concessions.
They hoped to be granted privileges by a new emperor, and their
hope was well founded, since Byzantine emperors regularly granted
local rulers in the northern Balkans such concessions. However, they
were insulted and dismissed. Isaac Angelus had decided to make an
example of the upstart Vlachs. He must have imagined he could control
the pastoralists, and determined that crushing their uprising would gain
him much needed military credibility. However, and in spite of his
attempt to prove otherwise by announcing false victories to the faithful
in Constantinople, Isaac had miscalculated, and it proved to be costly.
Nevertheless, the escalation of the Vlach rebellion was not inevitable,
nor was it based on an ethnic, still less a ‘national’, grievance against
Byzantine rule. Both Vlachs and Bulgarians played a major role in the
escalation of the rebellion, but others fought on the Byzantine side.


Meanwhile, however, the Vlachs and Bulgars made unprecedented
advances. Whereas previously their assaults had been concentrated
on villages and fields, now they advanced against ‘lofty-towered
cities. They sacked Anchialus, took Varna by force, and advanced on
Triaditza, the ancient Sardica, where they razed the greater part of the
city. They also emptied Stoumbion [south-west of Sardica on the upper
Strymon] of its inhabitants, and carried away large numbers of men
and animals from Nisˇ.’


"The Byzantine campaigns of autumn  were, by all extant
accounts, successful. Forces despatched to the north-east recovered
Varna and Anchialus, and the latter was reinforced with towers and a
garrison.72 Isaac himself led a campaign against the Vlachs and Cumans
from Philippopolis, and from there continued on to confront Stefan
Nemanja"


"More threatening for the empire was the fact that, after Isaac’s demise,
the nature of Vlach-Bulgar raids changed. Whereas before  they
were content to plunder lands south of the Haemus and around the
Black Sea ports, which remained in Byzantine hands, from  the
Vlach-Bulgars began to contemplate permanent possession of both
kastra and cities."


"Ivanko, who had fled
to Constantinople, was betrothed to Alexius III’s granddaughter, an
exceptional prize for the pretender to a realm the autonomy of which
was not recognized. Subsequently, he played a crucial role in defending
the environs of Philippopolis, serving as ‘a precious bulwark against his
own countrymen’. Even so, ‘the devastation of the lands towards the
Haemus and the despoiling of the inscribed monuments and pillars of
Macedonia and Thrace give a more accurate picture of the damage
wrought than any detailed historical account"




"The employment of Ivanko and Dobromir-Chrysus against their
fellow Vlachs and Bulgars was not exceptional. As we have seen, it was
a standard Byzantine strategy for dealing with recalcitrant peoples to
employ divide and rule tactics; and nobody knew better how to deal with
highly mobile Vlach raiding parties than Vlachs."


https://books.google.ro/books?id=Lv...AB#v=onepage&q=ivanko vlach prisoners&f=false


https://izi.travel/en/c1e4-vlasiei-woods-codrii-vlasiei/en

http://www.danubiushunters.com/web/


Plovdivian faces:

EnsBistritsa_91.jpg

_3563472_41837089_1465634765.jpg
 
[FONT=&quot]"This mountainous area is connected with the mountains south of the Danube between the Timok and Morava rivers and further to the south with the mountainous central area of the Balkan Peninsula, where several Northern Romanian geographical names existed in the Middle Ages. Many of them are still preserved in the Slavic toponymy; there are still settlements and mountains called "Vlach," for example, Vlaška Pianina "Vlach Mountains" near to the town of Pirot"[/FONT]Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area",Elemér Illyés


"Besides these names of Northern Rumanian origin, many of which certainly existed before the Slavic colonization of the areas in question, there is another group of geographical names connected with the presence of Vlachs: the names of mountains and placenames given by the Slavs and based on the Slavic name of the Vlachs. These are found all over the territories in which also names of Rumanian origin were preserved. Of such names of mountains, we mention Vlasiƒ, Vlaško Brdo, Stari Vlah, Vlasina, Vlaninja, Vlahinja Planina; and of placenames Vlahov Katun, Valakonje, Vlahoni, Vlaškido, Vlaški Do, Vlasiƒ, Vlase, Vlasi, Vlasotinƒe, Novovlase, Vlaška Draca, (of the following villages, there are more than one with the same name:) Vlaška, Vlahi, Vlahinja."(THE ORIGINS OF THE RUMANIANS)



  • Vlaşca County, a former county of southern Wallachia (derived from Slavic Vlaška)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs




 
[FONT=&quot]"This mountainous area is connected with the mountains south of the Danube between the Timok and Morava rivers and further to the south with the mountainous central area of the Balkan Peninsula, where several Northern Romanian geographical names existed in the Middle Ages. Many of them are still preserved in the Slavic toponymy; there are still settlements and mountains called "Vlach," for example, Vlaška Pianina "Vlach Mountains" near to the town of Pirot"[/FONT]Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area",Elemér Illyés


"Besides these names of Northern Rumanian origin, many of which certainly existed before the Slavic colonization of the areas in question, there is another group of geographical names connected with the presence of Vlachs: the names of mountains and placenames given by the Slavs and based on the Slavic name of the Vlachs. These are found all over the territories in which also names of Rumanian origin were preserved. Of such names of mountains, we mention Vlasiƒ, Vlaško Brdo, Stari Vlah, Vlasina, Vlaninja, Vlahinja Planina; and of placenames Vlahov Katun, Valakonje, Vlahoni, Vlaškido, Vlaški Do, Vlasiƒ, Vlase, Vlasi, Vlasotinƒe, Novovlase, Vlaška Draca, (of the following villages, there are more than one with the same name:) Vlaška, Vlahi, Vlahinja."(THE ORIGINS OF THE RUMANIANS)



  • Vlaşca County, a former county of southern Wallachia (derived from Slavic Vlaška)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs





At my knowledge the word katun was borrowed from Albanian.
 
"This mountainous area is connected with the mountains south of the Danube between the Timok and Morava rivers and further to the south with the mountainous central area of the Balkan Peninsula, where several Northern Romanian geographical names existed in the Middle Ages. Many of them are still preserved in the Slavic toponymy; there are still settlements and mountains called "Vlach," for example, Vlaška Pianina "Vlach Mountains" near to the town of Pirot"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area",Elemér Illyés


"Besides these names of Northern Rumanian origin, many of which certainly existed before the Slavic colonization of the areas in question, there is another group of geographical names connected with the presence of Vlachs: the names of mountains and placenames given by the Slavs and based on the Slavic name of the Vlachs. These are found all over the territories in which also names of Rumanian origin were preserved. Of such names of mountains, we mention Vlasiƒ, Vlaško Brdo, Stari Vlah, Vlasina, Vlaninja, Vlahinja Planina; and of placenames Vlahov Katun, Valakonje, Vlahoni, Vlaškido, Vlaški Do, Vlasiƒ, Vlase, Vlasi, Vlasotinƒe, Novovlase, Vlaška Draca, (of the following villages, there are more than one with the same name:) Vlaška, Vlahi, Vlahinja."(THE ORIGINS OF THE RUMANIANS)



  • Vlaşca County, a former county of southern Wallachia (derived from Slavic Vlaška)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs




Not every toponym having Vlaška is refering to the Vlachs but the god Veles (god of cattle) similarly the stars Hyades are named Vlašici not because of Vlachs but because of the god Veles.
See Veles town,Vlaška mountain or valley etc,more often valleys ,you see Do (valley) are connected to the god name.The Vlachs could have received their exonym by South-Slavs later on by their occupation cattle-breeders from the god of cattle Veles.
 
At my knowledge the word katun was borrowed from Albanian.

Vlachs have borrowed many words from us and yes, katun is one of these words.
 
Milan:

Not every toponym having
Vlaška is refering to the Vlachs but the god Veles (god of cattle) similarly the stars Hyades are named Vlašici not because of Vlachs but because of the god Veles.
See Veles town,Vlaška mountain or valley etc,more often valleys ,you see Do (valley) are connected to the god name.The Vlachs could have received their exonym by South-Slavs later on by their occupation cattle-breeders from the god of cattle Veles.




Your theory has slim chances to be reliable because it is
a compromise(Vlach Vlaska vs. Veles' Vlaska),the term
comes from Vlas(i) plus the suffix "-ka",like in
Hrvatska.


The only metathesys that Veles had suffered was through
Christianity,when his horns and tale were chopped off,
but it doesn't mean that we can't feel the original vibe
in the present.

I had strong arguments for the fact that I2a was ultimately also
spread by populations having mostly Dinaric racial traits:


-it is very present among Serbs,Croats,Bosniaks,they all share this
anthropological feature
-in Romania I2a only partly corresponds the Slavic imput,while the
bigger Balkanic-like one must have haplogroups too.
-this set of genes was transplanted to the northwestern Carpathians,
the association of I2a(30%) with E-V13(15%) from the Moravian Vlach
lineages supports the Romanian origin of this group.Many of them had
come from Maramures,a region that also has lot of genetical ties with
the Balkans,the connections with Kosovo shown in the above maps
only represents a late impulse that had been engaged in Dragos' and
Bogdan's movements to Moldavia:


"The name of
the Maramuresh noble village of Sarbi8, inhabited by the great families of Berinde9,
Bud10 , Feier11 and Tiplea12, descended from Locovoj13 knez of Cosau14, is called
Olahtotfalu, and Cosau comes from Kosovo. The naming of one of the most important
villages from Maramuresh Olahotfalva in Hungarian and Sarbi in Romanian shows
the mutual synonymy of the terms in medieval mentality, and the reference to Kosau Kosov
is important. It is important to know that the Berinde family of Cosau is re
lated to the royal family of Moldavia, Mathias Corvin wanting to put a Berinde from
Sarbi15, Maramuresh, and voivode in Moldavia"


"The village Sarbi is situated
in the Cosau (Kosov etymology the Kosovo field) valley, in the Cosau possessions
of Lokovoj of Kosau (Kosov). The Serb name of both the land (river) and noble
shows a correlation The same is with the village of Cuhea, inhabited by the descendants of the Gherhes
of Sarasau54, which has its serf village of Bocicoel, the village of Sapanta, which has
its serf village of Teceul Mic, and with the nobles of Sieu, which have the serfs of
Botiza and Rozavlea."


"The representation of Simeon Nemanja, the monk-king,
at Radauti, the necropolis of the Bogdan dynasty of Moldavia, shows this symbolic
adoption into the holy Nemanjic dynasty"


"The names of the family of the Moldavian voivodes, Bogdan, Juga and Latko are
to be found in the cadet branch of the Nemanjic, Jug Bogdan Vratko Nemanjic, the
father-in-law of Lazar Hrebeljanovic, was a descendent of Vukan, son of Nemanja.
Vratko is a form of Latko (Vlatzko from Vladislau, and Vladislau gives Ladislau), and
Bogdan and Juga are well known names in Moldavia. Maybe a connection with this
branch is the source of the heraldic coincidence."


"The Sapanta cemetery of Maramuresh consists of iconic images of the noble people
buried there, with acathist-like inscriptions. Is this a last remnant of the idea of the
holy Nemanjic dynasty in this far corner of Maramuresh? As was the case of Saint
Simeon and Sava icon from Calinesti, of Maramuresh?"


https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=...85sYuwCvomedkvAzR_Libw&bvm=bv.129391328,d.bGs


"The Valachs (or Wallachs/Vlachs as they are sometimes
called) are one of the most distinct ethnographic and cultural
subpopulations of Central Europe. Today, they can be
found not only in the Czech Republic – in its eastern border
mountain ranges and highlands (Beskydy in Moravia)
– but also in south-southeast Poland and several parts of
Slovakia (far western, northern, and central region). Originally,
this group spread from the Maramures region of Romania,
roughly following the Carpathian Mountain range"


(Y-chromosomal diversity of
the Valachs from the Czech
Republic: model for isolated
population in Central Europe)











 
@Milan


Your theory has slim chances to be reliable because it is
a compromise(Vlach Vlaska vs. Veles' Vlaska),the term
comes from Vlas(i) plus the suffix "-ka",like in
Hrvatska.


The only metathesys that Veles had suffered was through
Christianity,when his horns and tale were chopped off,
but it doesn't mean that we can't feel the original vibe.








I had strong arguments for the fact that I2a was ultimately also
spread by populations having mostly Dinaric racial traits:


-it is very present among Serbs,Croats,Bosniaks,they all share this
anthropological feature
-in Romania I2a only partly corresponds the Slavic imput,while the
bigger Balkanic-like one must have haplogroups too.
-this set of genes was transplanted to the northwestern Carpathians,
the association of I2a(30%) with E-V13(15%) from the Moravian Vlach
lineages supports the Romanian origin of this group.Many of them had
come from Maramures,a region that also has lot of genetical ties with
the Balkans,the connections with Kosovo shown in the above maps
only represents a late impulse that had been engaged in Dragos' and
Bogdan's movements to Moldavia:


"The name of
the Maramuresh noble village of Sarbi8, inhabited by the great families of Berinde9,
Bud10 , Feier11 and Tiplea12, descended from Locovoj13 knez of Cosau14, is called
Olahtotfalu, and Cosau comes from Kosovo. The naming of one of the most important
villages from Maramuresh Olahotfalva in Hungarian and Sarbi in Romanian shows
the mutual synonymy of the terms in medieval mentality, and the reference to Kosau Kosov
is important. It is important to know that the Berinde family of Cosau is re
lated to the royal family of Moldavia, Mathias Corvin wanting to put a Berinde from
Sarbi15, Maramuresh, and voivode in Moldavia"


"The village Sarbi is situated
in the Cosau (Kosov etymology the Kosovo field) valley, in the Cosau possessions
of Lokovoj of Kosau (Kosov). The Serb name of both the land (river) and noble
shows a correlation The same is with the village of Cuhea, inhabited by the descendants of the Gherhes
of Sarasau54, which has its serf village of Bocicoel, the village of Sapanta, which has
its serf village of Teceul Mic, and with the nobles of Sieu, which have the serfs of
Botiza and Rozavlea."


"The representation of Simeon Nemanja, the monk-king,
at Radauti, the necropolis of the Bogdan dynasty of Moldavia, shows this symbolic
adoption into the holy Nemanjic dynasty"


"The names of the family of the Moldavian voivodes, Bogdan, Juga and Latko are
to be found in the cadet branch of the Nemanjic, Jug Bogdan Vratko Nemanjic, the
father-in-law of Lazar Hrebeljanovic, was a descendent of Vukan, son of Nemanja.
Vratko is a form of Latko (Vlatzko from Vladislau, and Vladislau gives Ladislau), and
Bogdan and Juga are well known names in Moldavia. Maybe a connection with this
branch is the source of the heraldic coincidence."


"The Sapanta cemetery of Maramuresh consists of iconic images of the noble people
buried there, with acathist-like inscriptions. Is this a last remnant of the idea of the
holy Nemanjic dynasty in this far corner of Maramuresh? As was the case of Saint
Simeon and Sava icon from Calinesti, of Maramuresh?"






"The Valachs (or Wallachs/Vlachs as they are sometimes
called) are one of the most distinct ethnographic and cultural
subpopulations of Central Europe. Today, they can be
found not only in the Czech Republic – in its eastern border
mountain ranges and highlands (Beskydy in Moravia)
– but also in south-southeast Poland and several parts of
Slovakia (far western, northern, and central region). Originally,
this group spread from the Maramures region of Romania,
roughly following the Carpathian Mountain range"


(Y-chromosomal diversity of
the Valachs from the Czech
Republic: model for isolated
population in Central Europe)
 
Milan:"you see Do (valley) are connected to the god name."


If things would have been simple they wouldn't
have used a weird filter,still,the posted maps
contain without a doubt'autochthonous" genes,
even in regard to the Slavic imput.
It wasn't a horror analysis,but they surely
sampled consistently from the darkest side.




Populatiile Analizate
Esantion populational general


"Un numar de 10.884 probe biologice (saliva, sange, fire de par, etc.)
au fost recoltate de la persoane neînrudite (persoane condamnate si
alte categorii de persoane implicate în procese judiciare - suspecti,
victime, martori, rude ale unor persoane sau cadavre neidentificate etc.) 6,
in acord cu Legea Nr. 76/2008 privind organizarea si functionarea Sistemului
National de Date Genetice Judiciare.
In vederea folosirii persoanelor condamnate in studiul populational de fata,
s-a tinut cont în primul rand de Legea Nr. 275 din 4 iulie 2006 care prevede
la Art. 11 (5): "Administratia Nationala a Penitenciarelor stabileste penitenciarul
in care persoana condamnata va executa pedeapsa privativa de libertate.
La stabilirea penitenciarului se va avea în vedere ca acesta sa fie situat
cat mai aproape de localitatea de domiciliu a persoanei condamnate."

(Analiza genetica a populatiilor umane de pe teritoriul României folosind markeri STR)










The first one is my favorite:


"On the other hand, the Serbs made a clear distinction between their own ethnic
community and the Vlachs. This is exemplified in proverbs such as "Oh, Turk, the conspirer
of trouble! And you, Vlach, a blood brother imposed by others!" Another proverb
says: "Eat with a Vlach from the same bowl until you eat half of it, and then you hit him
on the head with it!"(ELEMENTS OF ETHNIC IDENTIFICATION OF THE SERBS,Danijela Gavrilovic).




Milan, next time when this tone is used, you will be treated like Visegradina.
If I post alot,it doesn't mean that I try to suggest that the South-Slavs are
genetically overwhelmingly Vlachs.








EDIT:


I sometimes post only copy-pasted text, simply because I consider that there is
nothing to add,don't be fooled by sneaky devils like Angela or Mihaitza/Gyms.
The latter's extreme posts had scared even the far-right members from "The Apricity",
from where is constantly banned.


EDIT2:


The previous post's copy-paste from
"MEDIEVAL NAME AND ETHNICITY: SERBS AND VLACHS",Stefan Staretu
 
I gave you one example Vlašici (Hyades) stars otherwise are named because of god Veles and not because of the Vlasi- Vlachs.But the "ethnonym" Vlach appear only in the 11th century denoting sheepherders and Romance speakers? Probably also depends where.
As matter of fact prior to be used in sense we today use,for example in Croatia,Bosnia all Eastern Orthodox were called Vlachs hence Serbs too.
Some of the toponyms perhaps have origin from their name,but i expressed my doubt since sometimes the same name have root to god Veles.
 
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It doesn't matter if indeed Vlasic ultimately comes from Veles or not,
we speak of a specific correlation,that shouldn't be
expanded or exploited,shouldn't leave the boundaries of astrology.


But the main argument for the use of the terms Vlasi/Vlaska to designate
exclusively the Vlachs/Vlach Country is their ethnic value.




These Vlachs are named Kjelatori,premikurs,protogers,all of them of
Latin origin,and lived in villages like Surdul,"The Deaf",in Romanian.


"The Vlach chieftains and their
officials, known as knezes, premikurs (premicur, primicur, from Latin primicerius),
protogers (protuder)" ("Being An Ottoman Vlach")




"The word hoditai, which does not mean
“nomads”, concerns the same people who were recorded in the Serbian
sources with the name kjelatori, involved in the military transportation.
The name kjelatori renders the Romanian word of Latin origin călători
(“travelers”)."("Vlach Military Units in the Byzantin")




"The archaeological excavations in Leskovac gave
the key to identification of the Brnjica finds in other
museums in the Morava basin; through classification
of material and intensive identification, trial and protective
excavations, fifty-four Brnjica cultural group
sites have been designated, of which ten are in the Vranje
region: Ljanik, Svinji{te, Biljaa, Kon~ulj, Luane,
Surdul, Priboj, Klinovac, Piljakovac and @ujince;
twenty-five in the Leskovac region"(REGIONAL CHARACTERISTICS
OF THE BRNJICA CULTURAL GROUP)
 
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It doesn't matter if indeed Vlasic ultimately comes from Veles or not,
we speak of a specific correlation,that shouldn't be
What i was saying is not to mix all the toponyms,some may reffer,some may not reffer to Vlachs,and i gave example.It is name similarities,about origin of the name there is generaly accepted theory already,so i can not go into that even if some propose otherwise.
 
If I am not going for your Veles-Vlas connection...


The shepherds/pastoralists are by default connected to constellations/astrology,
because of their way of life,Vlasic already points to shepherdry,what's the point of
using Veles too?

http://www.greatdreams.com/constellations/ursas-bootes.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auriga_(constellation)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)



In any case,if this proves to be true, it will be an isolated tie:


Old pastoral term(Veles)<--constellation(astrology)-->New Pastoral term(Vlasic)


Are there any further connections in this direction(Veles-Vlas),
apart from the names' closeness and pastoralism(which would had led inevitably
to overlapping in the case of a constellation)?


The extreme differentiation between the nomad Vlachs and the sedentary South-
Slavs throughout the Middle Ages had led to the need of having very clear ethnic markers,
that's why the Serbs too,like the Eastern Slavs, who use the word Volokh/Voloh(unrelated to
Veles),had adopted the term in a classical manner,without having other intermediary than the
Germans.


"In medieval Balkan states, the Vlachs were engaged in certain military
services, transport of goods, and colonisation of empty lands; they held a
special position and specific legal status, different from other populace.7 The
Balkan states kept the Vlachs isolated from the sedentary population to prevent
possible nomadisation of peasants. The feudal system however, started
gradually absorbing autonomies of Vlach herdsmen and their clan structure, in
favour of a sedentary way of life."("Being An Ottoman Vlach")


The Serbian kings' laws against intermarriages are well-known.


Before making hypotheses about Veles it is important to know how
deeply-rooted he still was in the South-Slavs consciousness,after the intense
Christianization,and some preserved toponyms can't be involved in this exercise.
 
Interesting compactness and overlapping of this genetical signature
with the earliest recorded Romanian political structures:

1.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelou

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litovoi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bărbat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneslau

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_(knez)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farcaș


"Anonymus wrote that Cumans, Bulgarians, and Vlachs (or Romanians), supported Glad against the invading Magyars, but the latter annihilated their united army in a battle near the Timiș River."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glad_(duke)

Anonymus uses a term from his present,the Cumans are in fact the Pechenegs,Bugarians' allies against the Magyars.


"The blows suffered at the hands of the Pechenegs and Bulgarians in 895–896 induced great caution in the Hungarians. Constantine Porphyrogenetos repeatedly noted that the Hungarians feared the Pechenegs, who were used by the Bulgarians to keep the Hungarians in check"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian–Hungarian_wars
 
The plural of baiat(boy) is baieti,which indicates the alternative singular baiet,
also in use.


"Baiet" is a Northern Latin variant,it ultimately comes from a form of the verb
"valeo","valet",exactly like the french word, and it is similar to Mantovan bagaet.
The semantic link is assured by the Italian words.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/băiat

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valet

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valeo#Latin

băiatboy; servant, pageRussuvariant băiet;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanian_words_of_possible_Dacian_origin

"We found Emiliano-Romagnolo
Mantovan bagaet ”ragazzo, boy”"

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Common_Lexic_in_Romanian_and_Albanian._Substrate_and_Loanwords



Latin v--> Romanian b


Latin veteranus,Romanian batran
Latin alveus,Romanian albie
Latin corvus,Romanian corb




The loss of intervocalic "l"


Latin folia,Romanian foaie
Latin filius,Romanian fiu
Latin familia,Romanian femeie




"The first line, the northern line, La Spezia – Rimini, is supposed to separate Gallo-Romance
dialects from Toscan, Southern Italian dialects, AND Romanian.
In fact, Romanian shares most phonetic shifts with the North.
The comparison of Lombard with Romanian may fine-tune the chronology
of phonetic shifts in Gallo-Romance."


"We suppose a linguistic continuum between Raetia, North Italy, Pannonia and Dacia,
interrupted in the 400-s, after which proto-Rumanian would evolve separately."




http://www.academia.edu/10464761/Romanian_and_the_Italian_dialects_II


Baiat resembles Italian dialectal forms like Calabrian bajazza(servant,easy woman),
vajazzu(servant,peasant),note the v/b alternation from the Italian dialects.


EDIT

If indeed related,the Albanian "bije" (daughter) could be the result of a regressive derivation from baiat/baiet or a similar form.
Because baiat can afford to lose the "-t" suffix,coming from Latin valeo.

http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/go.php?D1=9&H1=109&T1=valeo

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Common_Lexic_in_Romanian_and_Albanian._Substrate_and_Loanwords
 
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The long-lasting North Italian influences had come from ,
for example, the economic centers like Aquileia,following the roads along
the Sava and Drava to the Danube,reaching Pannonia,Dacia and the northern/fluvial (Upper)Moesia.


a map of roads from "Roman Danube Survey"




RomanDanubeSurvey.jpg




"Spesso le rappresentazioni di caccia si ritrovano
sia nell’arte romana pubblica, sia in quella
privata dal II al IV secolo,1 si potrebbe anche
affermare che la caccia fosse uno dei temi preferiti e la
decorazione principale delle stele funerarie, specialmente
nella Pannonia e nel Noricum.2 L’esistenza delle
stele con scene di caccia anche nella provincia della
Moesia Superior è una motivazione importante e significativa
per prestare una particolare attenzione a questi
monumenti"


"Nota anche che
questo fregio decorativo fu caratteristico della zona
norico – pannonica in particolare nel I e II secolo. Il
termine più preciso di zwieschenstrief animalistica è
stato formulato molto più tardi da Bianchi indagando
le stele funerarie della provincia della Dacia."


"stato raffigurato anche un albero.
Accanto alle stele citate che rappresentano il tema di
questo elaborato, si deve evidenziare che il tema della
caccia fu presente in altri due monumenti funerari nella
Moesia Superior. Nel lapidario del Museo di Krajina a
Negotin si trova un medaglione a forma circolare con
la raffigurazione di un cacciatore a cavallo; questo è la
parte centrale della stele funeraria che appartiene a quel
tipo di monumenti molto popolare nella Dacia e nel
Noricum."


"L’apparizione di questo
fregio nelle stele della Moesia Superior può essere capita
solo come conseguenza delle influenze che sono
pervenute da entrambe le Pannonie e dal Noricum dove
questo motivo era popolare; ed è altrettanto possibile
che questi si diffusero da queste province, come anche
dalla Moesia Superior, fino alla Dacia."


"Egli ha messo in evidenza che le botteghe a Singidunum
e a Viminacium lavoravano sotto le influenze dell’Italia
del nord, passate tramite la Pannonia del sud."


"L’apparizione del motivo della caccia in un gruppo
numeroso di stele funerarie della Moesia Superior è
ancora una conferma che in questa parte della provincia
ci sono dei vincoli culturali con entrambe le Pannonie
e con il Noricum, e questo vuol dire che i legami erano
molto stretti con Italia del nord".


"Il fregio con gli animali selvatici, cioè la scena di
caccia, appare in sette stele funerarie del tipo architettonico
del II e dell’inizio del III secolo della Moesia
Superior, in cinque di Viminacium, poi in una che
attualmente è murata nella fortezza di Smederevo ed
infine in una trovata a Stojnik."


"Anche Vasi}, analizzando
le stele funerarie della Dalmatia, ha concluso che
il motivo della caccia nell’area di questa provincia giunse
dall’Italia del Nord, da Aquileia e poi attraverso la
Pannonia da cui le influenze erano giunte tramite la valle
del fiume Drina"


"Esaminando la tipologia della stele di Trieste, Verzar–Bass
evidenzia la possibilità della diffusione dell’influenza di Aquileia e
dell’ambiente cisalpino nelle vicine province del Noricum e della
Pannonia Superior, e questo nel campo delle stele dalle dimensioni monumentali,
della simile mancanza di profondità del rilievo come nella
stele Barbii o dell’unione architettonica della stele tra quelle incorniciate
con le lesene decorate come, per esempio, quelle della stele Hostilii
evidenziando di nuovo il fatto che esempi significativi di questo tipo
non sono confermati nella sola Aquileia"
(LA SCENA DI CACCIA:
MOTIVO DI DECORAZIONE DELLE STELE FUNERARIE
DELLA MOESIA SUPERIOR
,Sanja Pilipovic)








"On the west wall of the above mentioned tomb
from Pécs, painted in the spirit of painting from the
Italian soil, the story of Jonah is represented concisely
and in a simplified manner,71 unlike the composition
elaborated in detail on two wallls of the tomb from Mike
Anti}a Street in Sremska Mitrovica. We tend, because
of this, to see the painting of this tomb as the result of
close relations which, during the second half of the 4th
century, the artistic workshops from Sirmium developed
with the centres from North Italy, in the first place with
those from Aquileia."
(WALL PAINTING OF LATE ANTIQUE TOMBS
IN SIRMIUM AND ITS VICINITY,Ivana Popovic)




"The supply of late North Italian sigillata to the military bases
along the lower Danube can be traced though the products of individual
workshops in such centres as Singidunum (Ms.4), Viminacium (Ms.14),
and Transdierna (Ms.42)." (Roman Danube Survey)
 
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If I am not going for your Veles-Vlas connection...


The shepherds/pastoralists are by default connected to constellations/astrology,
because of their way of life,Vlasic already points to shepherdry,what's the point of
using Veles too?



Old pastoral term(Veles)<--constellation(astrology)-->New Pastoral term(Vlasic)


Are there any further connections in this direction(Veles-Vlas),
apart from the names' closeness and pastoralism(which would had led inevitably
to overlapping in the case of a constellation)?
Yes there is connection,do you read what i write?

Post-Christian Veles


As a protector of cattle, he became associated with Saint Blaise, popularly known among various Slavic nations as St. Vlaho, St. Blaz, or St. Vlasiy.
Vlasi,Vlahi etc
is the name we used for sheep/cattle herders.Vlachs were sheepherders too.That is by which name the sheepherders or Vlachs were called in the Slavic languages,so as you can see the name is not ultimately connected only to Vlachs we today use "Romance speakers".So do not mix all the toponymy cause we have saints and prior god of that name.
 
Yes there is connection,do you read what i write?

Post-Christian Veles


As a protector of cattle, he became associated with Saint Blaise, popularly known among various Slavic nations as St. Vlaho, St. Blaz, or St. Vlasiy.
Vlasi,Vlahi etc
is the name we used for sheep/cattle herders.Vlachs were sheepherders too.That is by which name the sheepherders or Vlachs were called in the Slavic languages,so as you can see the name is not ultimately connected only to Vlachs we today use "Romance speakers".So do not mix all the toponymy cause we have saints and prior god of that name.


You have not posted about Saint Blaise until now,and this particular syncretism doesn't
support any of your theories,about a further/more complex connection between Veles and Vlach/Vlas,
because, just like in the case of Vlasici(Hyades),if true, it is an anticipable one,
or the toponyms(how many place names a saint like Blaise could have had?).


Milan,just an innocent question:what is the name of Saint Blaise's girlfriend?


EDIT


Romanian Grammar


One of the most important powers of "and" is a higher versatility
regarding the adversative manner.
In the above phrase it replaces the adversative "iar",one of
the equivalents of the adversative "si"("and",in english),
who doesn't have the power of"but"("dar").


The Romanians tend to use comma between phrases that contain
the double "either"-"or" or "neither"-"nor",because of a different
construction who transforms the sentence into an enumeration
by using the same conjunction ,"si"-"si"("and"-"and") in the first case,
"nici"-"nici" in the second.
 
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