Were the Croatians originally Slavic?

Anatolian chevalier,

Austrians themselves are genetically more Slavic than Germanic, and more Celtic (Hallstatt) than Slavic.

Austrians are Celtic > Slavic > Germanic, but for example people from Graz (southern Styria) and Carinthia are mostly Slavic.

In Graz only 14% have R1b and 43% have R1a (study by Kalevi Wiik, 2008) - more R1a than in East Germany.

Apart from German-speaking Austrians with Slavic ancestry, there are also actual Slavic minorities in Burgenland & Carinthia.

=========================

Croat haplogroups:

We notice, that:

1) R1a-Z280 is common for all Slavs & Balts
2) I2a1b is common or quite common for all Slavs
3) M458 is common or quite common for all Slavs
4) L260 is only common for West Slavs
4) Z92 is only common for East Slavs
5) N1c1 is very common only for Balts

R1a_Slavs_2.png


Z92 originated from Z280 while L260 originated from M458.

This map shows distribution of M458 including L260 (green):

CE_and_WS.png


==============================================

It seems that Z280 existed already among Balto-Slavs, yet before they split into Slavs and Balts.

M458 and I2a1b in my opinion also existed already among LCS people*, but most likely not only among them.

*LCS = Late Common Slavic, speakers of Slavic shortly before the great Slavic migrations and expansion.

===========

Do you think it is possible that Balto-Slavs or Early Slavs / LCS speakers had also some I1?

How to explain almost equal distribution of I1 among Croats, West Ukrainians, Belarusians and Lithuanians (4,5 - 5,6 % each)?

On the other hand Russians and Poles each have few percent more of I1 than the four groups mentioned above.
 
That said, at least from the 1500s "Dalmatian" was a name applied to a local Slavic language spoken in that region.

that said you speak English.........are you English?

Its only because the slavs have a tendency to claim ownership of something they never created ( same as albanians, maybe they are the same race) . But as stated the last person who spoke Dalmatian died in 1898. Dubrovnik was originally Ragussa, nothing in that place is slavic built , all the ancient works from Roman times to the 20th century has no slavic building alond any of the adriatic coast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik

We even know that istria was Italian until 1977 , it was never slavic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Osimo

So, I do not know why you are beating your chest!...............show me one ancient place that the slavs built on the adriatic coast
 
Of course they were always Slavs. Horovati or Horvati and their relatives Sorbati or Sorbi or Srbi. (transmutation of H into S and B into V). They were Hribati or Gorovati or Horovati & from Gore (mountains) / Hrbti - chrbát (back; rursus) in area around Karpati / Carpathian mountains...

That's the most funny thing, because according to palatalization: HRV>HRB>SRB is totally acceptable. It can be the same word.
 
are you English?

I have my ethnicity in my profile, man. I'm Polish from Lithuania - like these guys:


same as albanians, maybe they are the same race

Albanians AFAIK are primarily Europid, so yes - they are of the same race as you and me.

Maybe they have a different "sub-race", but race is the same.

I know personally only one Albanian guy, so I can't tell you much about Albanians. But it seems to me that Albanians are more swarthy than most Slavs and Balts (well, certainly that one was), even than Southern Slavs. Southern Slavs today - especially South-Eastern ones - are darker than their ancestors 1000 years ago. You might want to check my thread from The Apricity Forums (my nick on that forum is Litvin), "Early Slavic phenotypes":

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?134398-Early-Slavic-phenotypes-(6th-10th-centuries)

When it comes to South Slavs - I find Slovenes & Croats most similar in appearance to Poles. Bulgarians are most different in appearance.

But as stated the last person who spoke Dalmatian died in 1898.

So what ???

The last person who spoke Prussian* died after 1711, but German dialects spoken in Prussia were called "Prussian" already long before that.

*One of Baltic languages, related to Lithuanian and Latvian.

Dubrovnik was originally Ragussa, nothing in that place is slavic

It was called Ragussa but it was Slavicized centuries ago and therefore plenty of things there are Slavic. For example the main Croat Baroque poet was from that place, and he wrote an epic Pan-Slavic poem "Osman" which was about Polish-Cossack victory over Turks at Khotyn in 1621:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khotyn_(1621)

show me one ancient place that the slavs built on the adriatic coast

How could Croats build anything in Ancient Era, if Croats migrated to the Balkans from the north during the 7th century ???

They migrated from so called "White Croatia", which was somewhere at the Carpathian Mountains - could be in Southern Poland.

De Administrando Imperio by Constantine VII Porphyrogennetosdescribes how Slavs - Croats - captured Dalmatia:

"(...) Therefore everyone, who would like to do research about Dalmatia, can read herein about the way how the Slavic peoples took it. The Croats with their families came to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possesson of that land. After fighting against each other for some time, the Croats defeated the Avars, partially murdered them and partially forced them to submissiveness. Since that moment the country was seized by the Croats. (...)"

==================================================

Some selected quotes from ancient sources which describe Slavic invasions of the Balkans during the 6th and the 7th centuries:

Procopius, Book VII, XIII - describing events in year 545 AD:

"(...) For a great throng of the barbarians, the Sclaveni, had, as it happened, recently crossed the Ister, plundering the adjoining country and these Sclaveni enslaved a very great number of Romans. (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) In Illyria and Thracia, from the Ionian Gulf to Byzantine surrounding cities, where Hellas and Chersonese regions are situated, (...) the Sklavenes and the Antes, penetrating practically every year since Justinian administering the Roman Empire, were inflicting irreversible damage to their inhabitants. In each invasion I estimate 200,000 Romans were either took as prisoners or killed (...)"

Procopius about Roman attempts to stop the Slavic invasion:

"(...) the Empire wasn't able to find just one only man brave enough to undertake this task. (...)"

Pope Gregory I in a letter to Exarch of Italy from year 599:

"(...) It deeply afflicts and disquiets me the Slavic nation that menace us. It afflicts me from what I already suffer from you, it disquiets me because they have already started to penetrate into the Italic peninsula through Istria. (...)"

And according to Priscus of Panium, in 610 Slavic tribes flooded into Greece.

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) Nay further, they [the Slavs] do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:


"(...) In more or less the same time [549 - 550] a Slavic army (...) gathered itself together and after crossing without encountering any resistance from anyone the river Ister [Danube], and later with similar ease the river Heuros, it divided itself for two parts. (...) Commanders of Roman garrisons in Illyria and Thrace fought against both those parts and even though they had already separated from each other, the Romans suffered - contrary to their expectations - a defeat, and some of them fell dead on the spot, while others found salvation in escaping. (...) After all garrisons had suffered such defeats at the hands of either one or the other one of barbarian armies, one of enemy bands fought against troops of Asbados. He was a member of Emperor Justinian's personal guard (...) and he led a numerous and elite force of cavalry, which had been garrisoned for a long time inside the Thracian stronghold of Tdzurulon. But also they were forced to retreat by the Slavs and most of them, shamefully escaping, got slaughtered, while Asbados himself was captured and temporarily left alive, but soon after that the Slavs skinned him alive and threw him into a burning campfire. After that the Slavs were plundering all neighbouring Thracian and Illyrian lands without any obstacles and both of their two units captured many strongholds. (...) And those who had defeated Asbados, later plundered in turn everything up to the sea coast, and captured in an assault the coastal city of Toperus (...) And they slaughtered 25,000 men, plundered everything, and enslaved all the children and all the women. (...)"

John of Ephesus:

"(...) In third year after the death of Emperor Justin, during the reign of victorious Tiberius, the damned nation of the Slavs has risen, and marching through entire Hellas, through lands of Thessaly and Thrace, captured many cities and strongholds, plundered, burned and robbed, seized the land and settled there with full ease, without fear, like in their own land. (...) they were plundering the country, burning it and robbing, as far as the Great Walls [of Constantinople], and this is how they captured many thousands of cattle, as well as many other kinds of booty. (...) Until today, that is until year 584, they still continue to live in peace in lands of the Rhomaioi, without fear and concern, plundering, murdering and burning, getting rich and highjacking gold and silver, capturing horses and plenty of weapons; and they have learned to fight better than the Rhomaioi. (...)"

Menander Protector:

"(...) About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars. (...)"

Strategikon of Maurice:

"(...) Slavs do not keep prisoners in perpetual slavery like other peoples, but they demarcate for them a limited period of time, after which they give them a choice: they can return home after purchasing their freedom, or stay among them as free people and friends. (...)"

Jordanes:

"(...) These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venedi, Antes and Sclaveni. (...) they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins (...) Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) Belisarius was eager to capture alive one of the men of note among the enemy, in order that he might learn what the reason might be why the barbarians were holding out in their desperate situation. And Valerian promised readily to perform such a service for him. For there were some men in his command, he said, from the nation of the Sklaveni, who are accustomed to conceal themselves behind a small rock or any bush which may happen to be near and pounce upon an enemy. In fact, they are constantly practising this in their native haunts along the river Ister, both on the Romans and on the barbarians as well. (...)"

Procopius, Book V, XXVII, 134:

"(...) This exploit, then, was accomplished by the Goths on the third day after they were repulsed in the assault on the wall. But twenty days after the city and harbor of Portus were captured, Martinus and Valerian arrived, bringing with them sixteen hundred horsemen, the most of whom were Huns and Sclaveni and Antae, who are settled above the Ister River not far from its banks. (...)"

And these are just a few examples out of many.

There are many more sources which write about Slavic invasions of the Balkans.

According to sources already in 547 AD Slavic tribes invaded as far as Durazzo (Dyrrachium / Durres).

Abraham ben Jacob (a 10th century Sephardic Jewish traveller from Muslim Spain):

"(...) Slavic countries extend from the Mediterranean Sea to the Northern Ocean. (...) Generally speaking, Slavs are warlike and violent, and if not their internal discord and lack of unity, no other nation would be able to match them in strength. (...)"
 
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I have my ethnicity in my profile, man. I'm Polish from Lithuania - like these guys:




Albanians AFAIK are primarily Europid, so yes - they are of the same race as you and me.

Maybe they have a different "sub-race", but race is the same.

I know personally only one Albanian guy, so I can't tell you much about Albanians. But it seems to me that Albanians are more swarthy than most Slavs and Balts (well, certainly that one was), even than Southern Slavs. Southern Slavs today - especially South-Eastern ones - are darker than their ancestors 1000 years ago. You might want to check my thread from The Apricity Forums (my nick on that forum is Litvin), "Early Slavic phenotypes":

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?134398-Early-Slavic-phenotypes-(6th-10th-centuries)

When it comes to South Slavs - I find Slovenes & Croats most similar in appearance to Poles. Bulgarians are most different in appearance.



So what ???

The last person who spoke Prussian* died after 1711, but German dialects spoken in Prussia were called "Prussian" already long before that.

*One of Baltic languages, related to Lithuanian and Latvian.



It was called Ragussa but it was Slavicized centuries ago and therefore plenty of things there are Slavic. For example the main Croat Baroque poet was from that place, and he wrote an epic Pan-Slavic poem "Osman" which was about Polish-Cossack victory over Turks at Khotyn in 1621:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khotyn_(1621)



How could Croats build anything in Ancient Era, if Croats migrated to the Balkans from the north during the 7th century ???

They migrated from so called "White Croatia", which was somewhere at the Carpathian Mountains - could be in Southern Poland.

De Administrando Imperio by Constantine VII Porphyrogennetosdescribes how Slavs - Croats - captured Dalmatia:

"(...) Therefore everyone, who would like to do research about Dalmatia, can read herein about the way how the Slavic peoples took it. The Croats with their families came to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possesson of that land. After fighting against each other for some time, the Croats defeated the Avars, partially murdered them and partially forced them to submissiveness. Since that moment the country was seized by the Croats. (...)"

==================================================

Some selected quotes from ancient sources which describe Slavic invasions of the Balkans during the 6th and the 7th centuries:

Procopius, Book VII, XIII - describing events in year 545 AD:

"(...) For a great throng of the barbarians, the Sclaveni, had, as it happened, recently crossed the Ister, plundering the adjoining country and these Sclaveni enslaved a very great number of Romans. (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) In Illyria and Thracia, from the Ionian Gulf to Byzantine surrounding cities, where Hellas and Chersonese regions are situated, (...) the Sklavenes and the Antes, penetrating practically every year since Justinian administering the Roman Empire, were inflicting irreversible damage to their inhabitants. In each invasion I estimate 200,000 Romans were either took as prisoners or killed (...)"

Procopius about Roman attempts to stop the Slavic invasion:

"(...) the Empire wasn't able to find just one only man brave enough to undertake this task. (...)"

Pope Gregory I in a letter to Exarch of Italy from year 599:

"(...) It deeply afflicts and disquiets me the Slavic nation that menace us. It afflicts me from what I already suffer from you, it disquiets me because they have already started to penetrate into the Italic peninsula through Istria. (...)"

And according to Priscus of Panium, in 610 Slavic tribes flooded into Greece.

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) Nay further, they [the Slavs] do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:


"(...) In more or less the same time [549 - 550] a Slavic army (...) gathered itself together and after crossing without encountering any resistance from anyone the river Ister [Danube], and later with similar ease the river Heuros, it divided itself for two parts. (...) Commanders of Roman garrisons in Illyria and Thrace fought against both those parts and even though they had already separated from each other, the Romans suffered - contrary to their expectations - a defeat, and some of them fell dead on the spot, while others found salvation in escaping. (...) After all garrisons had suffered such defeats at the hands of either one or the other one of barbarian armies, one of enemy bands fought against troops of Asbados. He was a member of Emperor Justinian's personal guard (...) and he led a numerous and elite force of cavalry, which had been garrisoned for a long time inside the Thracian stronghold of Tdzurulon. But also they were forced to retreat by the Slavs and most of them, shamefully escaping, got slaughtered, while Asbados himself was captured and temporarily left alive, but soon after that the Slavs skinned him alive and threw him into a burning campfire. After that the Slavs were plundering all neighbouring Thracian and Illyrian lands without any obstacles and both of their two units captured many strongholds. (...) And those who had defeated Asbados, later plundered in turn everything up to the sea coast, and captured in an assault the coastal city of Toperus (...) And they slaughtered 25,000 men, plundered everything, and enslaved all the children and all the women. (...)"

John of Ephesus:

"(...) In third year after the death of Emperor Justin, during the reign of victorious Tiberius, the damned nation of the Slavs has risen, and marching through entire Hellas, through lands of Thessaly and Thrace, captured many cities and strongholds, plundered, burned and robbed, seized the land and settled there with full ease, without fear, like in their own land. (...) they were plundering the country, burning it and robbing, as far as the Great Walls [of Constantinople], and this is how they captured many thousands of cattle, as well as many other kinds of booty. (...) Until today, that is until year 584, they still continue to live in peace in lands of the Rhomaioi, without fear and concern, plundering, murdering and burning, getting rich and highjacking gold and silver, capturing horses and plenty of weapons; and they have learned to fight better than the Rhomaioi. (...)"

Menander Protector:

"(...) About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars. (...)"

Strategikon of Maurice:

"(...) They do not keep prisoners in perpetual slavery like other peoples, but they demarcate for them a limited period of time, after which they give them a choice: they can return home after purchasing their freedom, or stay among them as free people and friends. (...)"

Jordanes:

"(...) These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venedi, Antes and Sclaveni. (...) they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins (...) Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) Belisarius was eager to capture alive one of the men of note among the enemy, in order that he might learn what the reason might be why the barbarians were holding out in their desperate situation. And Valerian promised readily to perform such a service for him. For there were some men in his command, he said, from the nation of the Sklaveni, who are accustomed to conceal themselves behind a small rock or any bush which may happen to be near and pounce upon an enemy. In fact, they are constantly practising this in their native haunts along the river Ister, both on the Romans and on the barbarians as well. (...)"

Procopius, Book V, XXVII, 134:

"(...) This exploit, then, was accomplished by the Goths on the third day after they were repulsed in the assault on the wall. But twenty days after the city and harbor of Portus were captured, Martinus and Valerian arrived, bringing with them sixteen hundred horsemen, the most of whom were Huns and Sclaveni and Antae, who are settled above the Ister River not far from its banks. (...)"

De Administrando Imperio:

"(...) Therefore everyone, who would like to do research about Dalmatia, can read herein about the way how the Slavic peoples took it. The Croats with their families came to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possesson of that land. After fighting against each other for some time, the Croats defeated the Avars, partially murdered them and partially forced them to submissiveness. Since that moment the country was seized by the Croats. (...)"

And these are just a few examples out of many.

There are many more sources which write about Slavic invasions of the Balkans.

According to sources already in 547 AD Slavic tribes invaded as far as Durazzo (Dyrrachium / Durres).

Abraham ben Jacob (a 10th century Sephardic Jewish traveller from Muslim Spain):

"(...) Slavic countries extend from the Mediterranean Sea to the Northern Ocean. (...) Generally speaking, Slavs are warlike and violent, and if not their internal discord and lack of unity, no other nation would be able to match them in strength. (...)"

Don't take the Glory of extinct ethnicity/cultures as your own
 
Let's add that Slavic invasion and colonization of the Balkans was not just one event (just like Anglo-Saxon migration to Britain was not just "boom!, and here we are", but it lasted for many generations). It was gradual and lasted for about 200 - 250 years (from ca. year 500 to ca. year 700 - 750). Serbs, for example, most probably came as part of one of later waves, probably after year 630. And Lusatian Sorbs who live in Germany today, have some common ancestors with Balkan Serbs. But those ancestors did not live in East Germany but in Czechoslovakia - that's where the tribe formed itself and adopted it's name (before that they probably lived even further east, considering that it is assumed that Slavs came from Belarus-Ukraine). And one group migrated from Czechoslovakia to East Germany, while the other group migrated from Czechoslovakia to the Balkans. This map shows migrations of selected Slavic peoples during the late 6th - early 8th centuries (it doesn't show migrations during the 5th and early-to-mid 6th centuries):

Slav_migrations_VI_VII_cent.png
 
extinct ethnicity/cultures as your own

I don't understand ??? My ethnicity / culture is not extinct. What do you mean?

Edit:

I wrote: "This map shows migrations of selected Slavic peoples during the late 6th - early 8th centuries (it doesn't show migrations during the 5th and early-to-mid 6th centuries)"

Here are maps for earlier times - Slavic tribes migrating into Poland from which they drove away Germanic tribes (those who had not emigrated):

Sengebusch1.png


Later Avars came and started driving away some of Slavic tribes (maybe this accelerated Croat-Serb migrations to Germany/Balkans):

Sengebusch2.png


Maps come from "Germanie na ziemiach polskich w zaraniu średniowiecza" ("Germanic peoples in Polish lands at the beginning of the Middle Ages") by historian Adam Sengebusch.

Sengebusch wrote:

"(...) It is estimated that by the end of the 4th century population of Poland numbered ca. 600,000 people. Taking into account disturbances connected with the Hunnic invasion and subsequent, after their defeat, emigration movements of population to more attractive areas we can estimate, that during the period of Slavic expansion there were still around 150,000 - 250,000 Germanic people between the Baltic Sea and the Carpathians and between the Bug and the Oder Rivers. Some part of them decided to escape, some others died, some others were absorbed by Slavic invaders. (...)"
 
West Slavs were called Wends by Germans & Finns (Wenden & Venäja) - maybe after ancient Venedi, who lived to the south of the Baltic Sea.

But it is assumed that those Baltic Venedi were not originally Slavic-speakers, but became absorbed (assimilated) by early Slavs.

There are some thoeries which say that they spoke Venedic language, which was an extinct Indo-European language.

Don't confuse these Baltic Venedi with several other tribes of very similar names, but from completely different regions:

Region (Ancient region) - name of people [selected examples of Ancient historians who mentioned them]:

1) In Asia Minor (Paphlagonia) - Eneti [Homer], Heneti [Strabo]

2) In Italy (Latium) - Venetulani [Pliny the Elder]

3) In Balkans (Illyricum and on the Adriatic) - Enetoi [Herodotus]

4) In France (Gaul) - Veneti [Julius Caesar; Strabo]

5) In Poland & Belarus (Sarmatia Europea) - Venedae / Ouenedai [Ptolemy], Sarmatae Venedi [Pliny the Elder], Venedi [Tacitus]

We don't know if all those people were related to each other or spoke similar language, or not.

Maybe they were not related, but had similar names due to living in similar homelands, and those names had similar meaning:

According to Julius Pokorný, the ethnonym Venetī (singular *Venetos) is derived from Proto Indo-European root *u̯en- 'to strive; to wish for, to love'. As shown by the comparative material, Germanic languages had two terms of different origin: Old High German Winida 'Wende' points to Pre-Germanic *Venétos, while Lat.-Germ. Venedi (as attested in Tacitus) and Old English Winedas 'Wends' call for Pre-Germanic *Venetós. Etymologically related words include Latin venus, -eris 'love, passion, grace'; Sanskrit vanas- 'lust, zest', vani- 'wish, desire'; Old Irish fine (< Proto-Celtic *venjā) 'kinship, kinfolk, alliance, tribe, family'; Old Norse vinr, Old Saxon, Old High German wini, Old Frisian, Old English wine 'Friend'.[4]

Slavic peoples called Venedi appear during the 6th century, but they also didn't have to be related to the other ones of similar names:

Jordanes (6th century) about Slavs:

These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though springing from one bloodline, have now taken on three names, that is, Venedi, Antes and Sclaveni. (...) they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins (...) Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.

Procopius (6th century) about Slavs:

For these nations, the Sclaveni and the Antae, are not ruled by one man, but they have lived from of old under a democracy, and consequently everything which involves their welfare, whether for good or for ill, is referred to the people. It is also true that in all other matters, practically speaking, these two barbarian peoples have had from ancient times the same institutions and customs. (...) And both the two peoples have also the same language (...) In fact, the Sclaveni and the Antae actually had a single name in the remote past.
 
West Slavs were called Wends by Germans & Finns (Wenden & Venäja) - maybe after ancient Venedi, who lived to the south of the Baltic Sea.

But it is assumed that those Baltic Venedi were not originally Slavic-speakers, but became absorbed (assimilated) by early Slavs.

There are some thoeries which say that they spoke Venedic language, which was an extinct Indo-European language.

Don't confuse these Baltic Venedi with several other tribes of very similar names, but from completely different regions:

Region (Ancient region) - name of people [selected examples of Ancient historians who mentioned them]:

1) In Asia Minor (Paphlagonia) - Eneti [Homer], Heneti [Strabo]

2) In Italy (Latium) - Venetulani [Pliny the Elder]

3) In Balkans (Illyricum and on the Adriatic) - Enetoi [Herodotus]

4) In France (Gaul) - Veneti [Julius Caesar; Strabo]

5) In Poland & Belarus (Sarmatia Europea) - Venedae / Ouenedai [Ptolemy], Sarmatae Venedi [Pliny the Elder], Venedi [Tacitus]

We don't know if all those people were related to each other or spoke similar language, or not.

Maybe they were not related, but had similar names due to living in similar homelands, and those names had similar meaning:



Slavic peoples called Venedi appear during the 6th century, but they also didn't have to be related to the other ones of similar names:

Jordanes (6th century) about Slavs:



Procopius (6th century) about Slavs:

I am not confused with the term Veneti.

The baltic-Veneti are west-baltic culture who disappeared from the face of history around 200AD when they got absorbed into gothic society. they are lower vistula society.

The Veleti are upper vistula society who migrated as per your map to modern mecklenburg and got absorbed into Saxon society around the time of the wendish crusades ( circa 11th century )

No Greek or Roman historian ever used 2 words for naming of one tribe .............format was one word is one tribe, 2 words describes geographical area ie, montes bastanae , montes sarmatae etc etc

there is no documentation in latin by anyone that joins any two words into the meaning of one tribe


the Ouendedai are the Veleti people of mecklenburg and these people where claimed into Swedish Monarchy ownership ( not to say they where swedes)

there is also Veneti named tribes with extended letters in Portugal and Scotland......
 
Veleti (Wieleci) was a Polabian Slavic ethnos during the Middle Ages, but I wasn't talking about them, but about Wends which was a more general term for Western Slavs. Polabian Slavs spoke Lechitic languages (Northern group of West Slavic languages), very similar to Polish & Kashubian. On the other hand, Lusatian Sorbs spoke (and still speak) a language more closely related to Czech and Slovak.

around the time of the wendish crusades ( circa 11th century )

Wendish Crusades (crusades against Wends - Obodrites, Veleti, etc. West Slavs) were during the 12th century. Absorption of the Veleti (and partially extermination) lasted until the 17th-18th centuries, when their language totally disappeared:

This map shows majority Polabian-speaking (not Sorbian) areas in the 1500s and the 1600s (white = areas mostly Germanized before 1500):

Polabians_small.png


Slavic language in area west of the Elbe River - in the region of so called Drawehn - was spoken until the 19th century.

But it was one of Obodrite (not Veleti) dialects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drevani

The Drevani were one of tribes of the Obodrites, who spoke a different dialect than Veleti:
(according to "Dzieje polityczne Obodrzyców" by Adam Turasiewicz)

https://openlibrary.org/works/OL129...u_do_utraty_niepodleglosci_w_latach_1160-1164

Fragment from English summary:


Summary_E.png


BTW - maybe later I will post a timeline of history of West Slavs in what is now East Germany. But in another thread.

when they got absorbed into gothic society

Goths recruited or absorbed people from other tribes, but I don't think that they absorbed all of them.

==========================================

Here a similar map but this time for Sorbian-speaking populations:

Sorbian_Lusatian.png


===================================

This map shows approximate distribution of westernmost Slavic groups around year 800 (lighter red boundary shows territories already by that time partially De-Slavicized, or never fully Slavic - it is not certain whether those territories were fully Slavic or always ethnically mixed Slavic-Germanic - individual Slavic groups extended even more westward than that line, for example a few small groups of migrating Slavs settled as far west as along the Rhine River, but of course they were never majority of population there):

Western_Slavs_B.png


Those large ethnic groups - such as Obodrites (aka Obotrites), Veleti and Sorbs - divided further into tribes and clans, which were united in realms / federations. In total there were around 60 such Polabian and Sorbian tribes and clans living in what is today East Germany:

Here is the list of tribes with names from original Medieval texts, written usually in Latin (so names are usually distorted, Latinized, etc.):

Plemiona_1.png


Slavic presence can also be found in modern names of localities in East Germany. For example typical (but not the only ones) variants of toponyms of Slavic origin, are names with -ow/au, -in or -itz or -itze/itza suffixes, such as: Spandau, Krakow am See, Schwerin, Berlin, Chemnitz, Dönitz, Steglitz, etc. For example below is a map indicating areas in Germany where you can find settlements with names ending with suffix -itz:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nendung-itz.png/472px-Ortsnamenendung-itz.png

472px-Ortsnamenendung-itz.png
 
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Veleti (Wieleci) was a Polabian Slavic ethnos during the Middle Ages,
It is very tempting to connect Veleti with Wieleci, actually I was musing about this in couple of threads some time ago, but beside similarities in names, I'm yet to find any historical or cultural continuation of Veleti in form of slavic tribe. Hopefully with future genetic testing of ancient skeletons we should be able to detect who moved where and became who, or whether it just got exterminated. It would be cool if it turned ture. ;)

I'm not sure about origin of White Croats in Polish Carpathian area, Malopolska. Besides Austro-Hungarian maps or passport with White Croatia as ethnicity, it is impossible to find any documents from before occupation period, before 1800 or so, naming this region White Croatia. I have a hunch that it was a political move of Austro-Hungarians to call Polish territory under their occupation as White Croatia. Meaning that they didn't invade Poland, but instead they liberated Croatians, who already belonged to the Empire.

PS. Great job on Slavic history.
 
LeBrok, what kind of Veleti are you talking about, from which time and region, memtioned in which sources? Slavic Wieleci (English version of name: Veleti) was not one tribe, but an ethnic group divided into several tribes. They also formed a political realm which was a federation of most of their tribes, and was called the Holy Union of the Veleti. Similar realm was formed by Obodrites - the Grand Duchy of the Obodrites - but also not all Obodritic tribes were part of it. We don't have any info from written sources about the Obodrites and the Veleti until the moment when they first came into contact with Frankish Empire. In 777 Charlemagne completed the conquest of Southern Saxons and in 780 we have the first contact between Frankish Empire and Obodrites at the Middle Elbe. In 782 there was a Saxon uprising against Franks under Widukind and Obodrites supported Charlemagne against Saxons. In 789 Veleti are mentiomed for the first time, also name of their supreme duke is mentioned - he was Drogovit. In 789 Drogovit invaded Obodrites and Obodrite duke Wieczan (Witzan) asked Charlemagne for help.
 
Timeline of the early phasw of history of Slavs in East Germany, until the death of Charlemagne:

⦁ 512 - some of Germanic Heruli migrate from middle Danube to North Germany and encounter territories already inhabited by Slavs on their way there (Procopius)
⦁ 6th century - Slavic settlement at Prague numbers over 600 houses: http://www.archaeobotany.org/download/posters/novak_roztoky_abstract_whv2010.pdf
⦁ ca. 550 - Slavs start migrating into wgat is now East Germany
⦁ 595 - Slavs (probably ancestors of Slovenes or / and Croats) fight against Frankish-dependent Bavarian duke Tassilo in modern Austria and Bohemia
⦁ 596 - Slavs, probably allied with the Avars, defeat Bavarians under Tassilo, killing 2,000 of them
⦁ 620s - a major war between Slavs and Avars
⦁ 624 - a smuggler of weapons from the Frankish Empire, Samo (born near Sens at the Yonne river in central France), who had previously been illegally smuggling across the border and selling weapons to Slavs, enters Slavic lands, joins Slavs in their fight against the Avars, and due to his merits in battle, united Slavic tribes elect him their king (source: Fredegar's chronicle). Samo was probably a Gallo-Roman.
⦁ 630 - Walluk, duke of Carantanians (northern Slovenes), joins Samo's Federation.
⦁ 631 - Slavic Federation defeats the Frankish Empire in the battle of Wogastisburg
⦁ 631 - after the victory at Wogastisburg Slavic armies invade and plunder Thuringia
⦁ 632 - Dervan, duke of Surbi (Sorbs) joins the Slavic Federation under king Samo
⦁ 636 - Dervan is killed in one of battles against Randulf, governor of Thuringia
⦁ 661 - the federation disintegrates into many realms again after Samo's death. According to Fredegar's chronicle Samo had 12 Slavic wifes, 22 sons and 15 daughters.
⦁ 772 - Charlemagne invades Southern Saxons
⦁ 777 - conquest of Southern Saxons is completed
⦁ 780 - first Frankish contact with the Obodrites at the Middle Elbe
⦁ 782 - Sorbs raid and plunder Thuringia and Frankish-controlled Saxony
⦁ 782 - Saxon uprising against Franks under Widukind. Obodrites side with Franks
⦁ 785 - uprising squashed, Widukind surrenders and adopts Christianity in Attigny
⦁ 789 - Wieczan (Witzan) becomes the supreme duke (rex / princeps) of Obodrites
⦁ 789 - Obodrites mentioned as "old good allies" of Charlemagne (against Saxons)
⦁ 789 - Wieczan asks Charlemagne for assistance against his troublesome eastern neighbours, the Holy Union of the Veleti, under supreme duke Drogowit.
⦁ 789 - Charlemagne, allied with Frisians, Sorbs and Obodrites (under duke Wieczan), invades Veleti. Frankish army crosses the Elbe near modern Wolmirstadt. Allied forces besiege Brenna, the main stronghold of Veleti duke Drogowit. Seeing that resistance is pointless, Drogowit negotiates peace. Veleti pay a single tribute to Charlemagne. Charlemagne satisfied with tribute returns back to Francia.
⦁ 795 - Obodrite duke Wieczan (dux Witzan), ally of Franks against Nordalbingians (northernmost Saxon tribe, who remain independent from Frankish rule).
⦁ 795 - at the Elbe near Bardowick Nordalbingians ambush Obodrites, killing Wieczan
⦁ ca. 796 - Drozko elected new rex / princeps of the Obodrites. Drozko has a son named Czedrog (Chedrog). Drozko continues pro-Frankish policies of Wieczan and Charlemagne is his ally. Danes, Northern Saxons and Veleti are his enemies.
⦁ 795-798 - in revenge for Wieczan's death, Charlemagne raids Nordalbingians and carries out first forcible population transfers and deportations of Saxons.
⦁ 798 - battle of Swentana (Bornhöved) between Obodrites under Drozko and Nordalbingians (at the same time Charlemagne's army is near Minden, raiding Ostphalia). Obodrites win. About 3 - 4 thousand Saxons perish.
⦁ 799 - son of Charlemagne mediates in conflict between Obodrites and Veleti
⦁ 804 - conquest of Nordalbingians by Franks (with Veleti help) is completed, forcible deportation of over 10,000 Nordalbingian men, with families, to Gaul.
⦁ 804 - in Hollenstedt at the Elbe Drozko is crowned King by Charlemagne, he is also awarded Nordalbingia, which becomes part of Obodrite realm (sources: Ann. Regni Francorum a 804, Chron. Moiss a 804). Archaeological evidence of Slavic settlements and pottery in Nordalbingia discovered in Hamburg and in Domplatz, dated to 8th-9th centuries (R. Schindler connects these with Drozko's reign).
⦁ ca. 805 - Charlemagne fortifies Frankish-Slavic border (limes sorabicus and limes saxonicus) and establishes permanent military posts along it. He introduces capitulare duplex in 805 - a kind of embargo for export of weaponry to Slavic lands (including even his allied Obodrites). Several places are chosen for trade with Slavs.
⦁ 805 - Franks invade the Sorbian-Lusatian tribe of the Glomaci
⦁ 805 - duke Lecho of the Bohemians (Czechs) dies in battle against Charlemagne
⦁ 806 - Sorbs (Siurbs) agree to pay tribute to Charlemgne after their duke - Miliduch (Milidouch / Milito) - is killed in a battle against Franks near modern Halle.
⦁ 808 - Drozko, king of the Obodrites. Godelaib, one of their minor dukes.
⦁ 808 - the Danes under duke Godfred (his realm is in Jutland), allied with the Veleti, invade the Obodrite realm (Jutland had previously become a refuge for Saxon refugees during Frankish-Obodrite invasions of Nordalbingia). Danes and Veleti manage to capture several Obodrite strongholds in the process.
⦁ 808 - at least two out of tribes of the Obodrite realm, Smolincy and Linianie, betray and unite with Danish-Veleti army. King Drozko is forced to abandon his realm and escapes to Francia. Godelaib is captured and executed by. Godfred annexes Nordalbingia, two other Obodrite provinces - Obodrsko and Wagria - pay tribute.
⦁ 808-809 - Veleti wage offensive war against Obodrites and then against Franks
⦁ 808 - Charlemagne sends his son to crush the Veleti and Obodrite traitors, but he is defeated and has to retreat. Godfred proposes peace to Charlemagne, negotiations take place in Bandenflut at the Stör River, but they fail and war continues on.
⦁ 809 - Drozko returns from exile to his country. He signs truce with Danes in exchange for giving them one of his sons (maybe Chedrog) as a hostage. He allies with Saxons against Veleti and these Obotrite trines which seceded from his realm. Allied Obodrite loyalists and Saxons besiege a stronghold of Smolincy at Connoburg. The stronghold is captured and destroyed, power over rebellious tribes is restored.
⦁ 809 - Godfred violates the truce and invades Obodrites, he demolishes Slavic coastal town at Rerik (near modern Wismar), and deports local merchants to Haithabu (Hedeby), Denmark. Drozko is killed by Danish assassins at Rerik.
⦁ 809 - after the death of Drozko Charlemagne deprives the Obodrites of Nordalbingia and incorporates it to his Empire. The land is depopulated due to war, disease and deportations, so he brings in new settlers from entire Empire. Charlemagne establishes three new castles to strengthen the defence of his borders: first is at Eselfeld at the Stör River, second is at Hamburg, third is at Hochbucki near Lenzen at the Elbe.
⦁ 810 - Veleti attack the Frankish Empire and destroy their new castle at Hochbucki
⦁ 812 - Franks and Obodrites (under their new grand duke, Slavomir) in retaliation invade Veleti territories and manage to force them to pay a tribute.
⦁ 813 - coronation of Louis I by Charlemagne in Aachen.
⦁ 814 - death of Charlemagne, Louis I takes power in the Empire. Those of Slavic tribes which had been paying tribute to Charlemagne, stop paying it.
 
that said you speak English.........are you English?

Its only because the slavs have a tendency to claim ownership of something they never created ( same as albanians, maybe they are the same race) . But as stated the last person who spoke Dalmatian died in 1898. Dubrovnik was originally Ragussa, nothing in that place is slavic built , all the ancient works from Roman times to the 20th century has no slavic building alond any of the adriatic coast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik

We even know that istria was Italian until 1977 , it was never slavic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Osimo

So, I do not know why you are beating your chest!...............show me one ancient place that the slavs built on the adriatic coast

Don't flatter yourself with claims that Latinic people created all these cities... Majority of current Italian cities are of Etruscan (Trojan) origin and origins of people who lived there before Etruscans - Liburnians (native Etruscans). Rome was Ruma, Tergeste (Tržišče; or Trg) or current Trst(Trieste) was of Etruscan(Trojan) origin also; written as "Tarkste", similar with Tarqunia which was Tarkuna...
Regards to "Istria". It derives from Etruscan Histria; Hesturuia, another name for "Trojans" (H)Estoroi or Vilushan/Velianaz ("Ilios")... The Tyrrhenian sea is named after Etruscans also...

http://ami.arhivpro.hr/?documentIndex=1&docid=1533&page=0

http://udruga-kameleon.hr/tekst/5698/

Rovinj

maklavun.jpg


Mali sveti anđeo


86370288.jpg


86370065.jpg






"Stonehenge" in Poreč:



Mali Sv. Andjelo


Istria_From_Smrikve_Mali_Sv._Andelo_S.Angelo_Piccolo_5_Tholos__big.jpg


Hvar

megaliti_kula_Tor_Hvar_wikipedia_org_400.jpg


 
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LeBrok, what kind of Veleti are you talking about, from which time and region, memtioned in which sources? Slavic Wieleci (English version of name: Veleti) was not one tribe, but an ethnic group divided into several tribes. They also formed a political realm which was a federation of most of their tribes, and was called the Holy Union of the Veleti. Similar realm was formed by Obodrites - the Grand Duchy of the Obodrites - but also not all Obodritic tribes were part of it. We don't have any info from written sources about the Obodrites and the Veleti until the moment when they first came into contact with Frankish Empire. In 777 Charlemagne completed the conquest of Southern Saxons and in 780 we have the first contact between Frankish Empire and Obodrites at the Middle Elbe. In 782 there was a Saxon uprising against Franks under Widukind and Obodrites supported Charlemagne against Saxons. In 789 Veleti are mentiomed for the first time, also name of their supreme duke is mentioned - he was Drogovit. In 789 Drogovit invaded Obodrites and Obodrite duke Wieczan (Witzan) asked Charlemagne for help.
I'm sorry, I ment Venedi turning into Veleti (Wieleci). My mind must have tricked me, that you made such assumption, yesterday when catching up and reading fast.
 
Why do you speak lies?
Istra was in Austro Ungarian Empire till 1918.
In 1918.-1945. Istra was part of Italy.
1945.-1991. part of Yugoslavia.
1991.+ Croatia.

That Treaty os Osim you are speaking about was only act in which Italy accepted the real facts because till then Italy claimed Istra was theirs and in real it was part of Yugoslavia.

So Istra was only for short period Italian 27 years. And Italian people were never dominant in Istra.
 
Why do you speak lies?
Istra was in Austro Ungarian Empire till 1918.
In 1918.-1945. Istra was part of Italy.
1945.-1991. part of Yugoslavia.
1991.+ Croatia.

That Treaty os Osim you are speaking about was only act in which Italy accepted the real facts because till then Italy claimed Istra was theirs and in real it was part of Yugoslavia.

So Istra was only for short period Italian 27 years. And Italian people were never dominant in Istra.

you speak lies..I supplied a link, you never did
 
You're both talking about couple of different things.
 
i have seen croatian people, many of them look germanic. i heard they have austrian ancestor. i dont believe they are mostly slavic as like serbian people

You can see haplogroups of Serbs, Croats and another Slavic nations.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Serbs are probably mostly descedants of Thracians, they have haplogroups as typical Balkan peoples.

I1: 8.5, I2a: 33, I2b: 0.5, R1a: 16, R1b: 8, G: 2, J2: 8, J1: 0.5, E1b1b: 18, T: 1, Q: 1.5, N: 2

These amounts of haplogroups are atypical for Slavic nations.

For example:

Ukraine:
I1: 3.5, I2a: 13, I2b: 0.5, R1a: 45, R1b:7.5, G: 2.5, J2: 7, J1: 1, E1b1b: 5.5, T: 1, Q: 1, N: 7.5
Slovakia:
I1: 6.5, I2a: 16 , I2b: 1.5, R1a: 41.5, R1b: 14.5, G: 4, J2: 2, J1: 1, E1b1b: 6.5, T: 0.5, Q: 0.5, N: 3
Slovenia
I1: 9, I2a: 20.5, I2b: 1.5, R1a: 38 , R1b: 18, G: 1.5, J2: 2.5, J1: 0, E1b1b: 5, T: 1, Q: 0, N: 0
Croatia:
I1: 5.5, I2a: 37 , I2b: 1, R1a: 24, R1b: 8.5, G: 2.5, J2: 6, J1: 1, E1b1b: 10, T: 0.5, Q: 1, N: 0.5
 

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