Were the Croatians originally Slavic?

[Piro Ilir]

No such thing as Illyrian language,we don't know was all "Illyrian" tribes related to eachother,what we know is region called Illyrian by Greco-Roman ethnographers with no clear picture on ethnic origin of the same people,Albanian language has heavy borrowings from Slavic half and more toponyms in Albania itself are of Slavic origin and near to all in Kosovo.Influence from other languages Albanian is "Latinazied" so what if is it?that mean that your culture had more borrowing from the cultures mentioned prior.Bear in mind Albanians are mentioned first in 12 century,first alphabet in the 20th century,almost all your words for sea,fish and stuff are from other languages.Slavic language has great matching with the Thracian language,some of the first IE in the Balkans,so we don't need much Greek or Latin loanwords,since we know that Greek and Romans also borrowed from Thracians including their deities.

If you had read ancient writers, you know well that they described that Illyrians were one and only ethnic people. Today among scholars is a dispute about some of the illyrian tribes origin. Some of them as the Veneti probably were not Illyrians. During the Roman conquest ancient Roman writers wrote that the inhabitants of the areas around today basin Drin river were Illyrians proper dicti, but even the other illyrian tribes were akin. In ancient Roman sources is well documented the Slavic migration, but there is not even a single source mentioning any kind of Albanian migration. Albanians didn't came there with helicopters [emoji23]. The term illyrian was replaced with the term Albanian over time during the history. The name Illyrian into Albanian was replaced during the years when the East Roman empire was very weak during the time of barbaric migration. What is the surprise about this. Thus happens all the time during history. There are many Slavic toponyms because of the Slavic invasion. There are still some Latin toponyms either. The only moment in history when is a lack of sources about Illyrians and Albanians is the moment when Slavs were very powerful and the Byzantium was not present throughout the region. It was called the dark age. Precisely during this time the "Illyrian" name was replaced by the "Albanian" name.

 

[RobertColumbia]

If those Serbs and Croats were called Illyrians, this doesn't mean they really were. They don't have any Latin and Greek loan words on their language. This mean they didn't lived there during the long Roman invasion.

Do note that the opposite is not necessarily true - the fact that a language has Latin and Greek loanwords does not indicate that its Roman-era speakers were under Roman occupation. In many cases, the loanwords came later via peoples who were descended from and/or had themselves been occupied by Romans.

 

[Piro Ilir]

No loan words of ancient Hellenic and Latin origin into the Slavic languages. Many loan words of Latin origin into the Albanian language some of them of archaic Latin. Some loan words of the Albanian language predates the Roman conquest, and these words are of ancient Hellenic origin. Modern vlach and Romanian language have no words of archaic Latin origin, but albanian language has. All this mean that Albanian language is evolve on those areas.

 

[LeBrok]

No loan words of ancient Hellenic and Latin origin into the Slavic languages. Many loan words of Latin origin into the Albanian language some of them of archaic Latin. Some loan words of the Albanian language predates the Roman conquest, and these words are of ancient Hellenic origin. Modern vlach and Romanian language have no words of archaic Latin origin, but albanian language has. All this mean that Albanian language is evolve on those areas.

It means that it evolved close to places where ancient Greek and Roman was spoken. South Italian peninsula fits this location better than Balkans.

 

[Taranis]

No loan words of ancient Hellenic and Latin origin into the Slavic languages. Many loan words of Latin origin into the Albanian language some of them of archaic Latin. Some loan words of the Albanian language predates the Roman conquest, and these words are of ancient Hellenic origin.

Actually, here you both right and wrong: there are Greek loanwords in Slavic, but they mostly came from medieval Greek into Old Church Slavic, and not into Proto-Slavic. In contrast, Albanian contact with Greek was much earlier (for example the Albanian word for apple, "mollë", is borrowed from Greek "mēlo" or "μηλο"). Proto-Slavic does have a few Latin borrowings actually, for example the words for vinegar (Latin "acetum", Polish "ocet"), wine (Latin "vinum", Polish "wino") or donkey (Latin "asellus", Polish "osioł"). The largest part of loanwords in Slavic actually comes from Germanic.

Modern vlach and Romanian language have no words of archaic Latin origin, but albanian language has. All this mean that Albanian language is evolve on those areas.

This statement is a contradiction. Of course Romanian has words that are of archaic Latin origin, it is a Romance language after all.

 

[Trojet]

It means that it evolved close to places where ancient Greek and Roman was spoken. South Italian peninsula fits this location better than Balkans.

I hope this is a joke lol... Otherwise it would be the latest crazy theory of Albanian being evolved in a different place other than where presently Albanian spoken.

Pirro Ilir described it perfectly as well as to some point Taranis. The earliest Latin loanwords to Albanian date BC. We know that the Illyrians living in present Albania were the first to be occupied by the Romans, so some of these archaic Latin words are only found in Albanian. As far as Ancient Greek loanwords go, the earliest loanwords are dated BC as well.

All this is just another evidence that Albanian evolved pretty much in the same areas where presently spoken (southernmost Illyrian tribes who didn't get Romanized or later Slavicized). Genetics is pointing to the same conclusion.

I'm no linguist expert, but I know these basic historical and linguistical facts that BTW are accepted by every serious linguist and historian. Then again I wonder how this thread got turned into a debate about the origin of Albanian.

 

[Sile]

I hope this is a joke lol... Otherwise it would be the latest crazy theory of Albanian being evolved in a different place other than where presently Albanian spoken.

Pirro Ilir described it perfectly as well as to some point Taranis. The earliest Latin loanwords to Albanian date BC. We know that the Illyrians living in present Albania were the first to be occupied by the Romans, so some of these archaic Latin words are only found in Albanian. As far as Ancient Greek loanwords go, the earliest loanwords are dated BC as well.

All this is just another evidence that Albanian evolved pretty much in the same areas where presently spoken (southernmost Illyrian tribes who didn't get Romanized or later Slavicized). Genetics is pointing to the same conclusion.

I'm no linguist expert, but I know these basic historical and linguistical facts that BTW are accepted by every serious linguist and historian. Then again I wonder how this thread got turned into a debate about the origin of Albanian.

You need to recheck your history for occupation of modern albanian lands

bronzeage - Dorians
-then corinthians , all along the coast
-then Epirotes who allowed 2 Illyrians tribes to enter around 400BC
-then epirotes where annexed by Macedonians around 300BC
-then part annexed by Romans in 198BC in first macedonian war
-then the remainder in second Macedonian war against Romans in 146BC

- Romans built the biggest road in the Balkans stretching from Durrazzo to Istanbul. this also is the very important major road that linked the 2 Roman empire later on

 

[Ike]

I hope this is a joke lol... Otherwise it would be the latest crazy theory of Albanian being evolved in a different place other than where presently Albanian spoken.

Does it really shake your world to even consider a possibility that you ancestry could be like 500 km from where you are now. Does it really have to be less than 50 km? Does it give you a migraine or arrhythmia?

Pirro Ilir described it perfectly as well as to some point Taranis. The earliest Latin loanwords to Albanian date BC. We know that the Illyrians living in present Albania were the first to be occupied by the Romans, so some of these archaic Latin words are only found in Albanian. As far as Ancient Greek loanwords go, the earliest loanwords are dated BC as well.

That doesn't prove that Albanians were there in BC era. How would you know that an alleged BC ancient loanword didn't enter Albanian in like 5th or 11th century? You really think that Greek language was standardized in those times? The fact that officials in Constantinople used a different form of word in 8th century, doesn't prove that the whole Balkan was using it, and that the old term was still not in use up high in Greek and Macedonian mountains for centuries to go.

All this is just another evidence that Albanian evolved pretty much in the same areas where presently spoken (southernmost Illyrian tribes who didn't get Romanized or later Slavicized). Genetics is pointing to the same conclusion.

No it doesn't. If you have looked carefully into facts you would have seen, for example:

• although some Albanian toponyms descend from Illyrian, Illyrian toponyms from antiquity have not changed according to the usual phonetic laws applying to the evolution of Albanian.
• Latin loanwords into Albanian show East Balkan Latin (Proto-Romanian) phonetics, rather than West Balkan (Dalmatian) phonetics.
• the scarcity of Greek loan words also supports a Dacian theory

Etc. There are many more contradictions that need to be resolved , before you could even start making that claim.

Genetics is pointing to the same conclusion.

No it doesn't. We don't know the original Albanian Y-DNA mix, and E-V13 diversity hotspot is not on the territories populated by Albanians today.

I'm no linguist expert, but I know these basic historical and linguistical facts that BTW are accepted by every serious linguist and historian. Then again I wonder how this thread got turned into a debate about the origin of Albanian.

Facts are accepted, but not your explanations. The number of facts you're referring to is too small to draw conclusions from them like you do.

Then again I wonder how this thread got turned into a debate about the origin of Albanian.

It turned in #125, when our new member Piro tried to assert that Albanians assimilated Thracians.

 

[Trojet]

You guys like IKE, SILE aka VETTOR, GARRICK, are quoting too much wikipedia and are acting like you are some kind of experts. Your anti Albanian agenda is pretty evident. Again you try to make Albanians seem like they are some "recent arrivals" by cherry picking every unproven theory, and without providing any proof.

I'm sorry, but you will never succeed convincing anybody who has done some research, except people who share your agenda.

Albanians are really autochthonous, and Kosova will never be again part of Serbia, so please stop dreaming and accept the reality

Oh and BTW, I will never be afraid to protect and show my nationality (if that's what anyone has a problem with) just like anyone else shouldn't be afraid to do the same about their nationality. I'm willing to have a debate about serious things, but not about unproven cherrypicking theories that clearly show agenda/propaganda. I'm aware that there is countless unproven theories about other Balkan ethnicities too, but I choose not to bring them up cause I know they are such, and don't have any hatress or agenda about any ethnicity.

 

[Ike]

Albanians are really autochthonous, and Kosova will never be again part of Serbia, so please stop dreaming and accept the reality

At least we all know your agenda now. Don't worry, Kosovo is not even in question. Kosovo population is really young, estimated to 1500 years ago. None of us is connected with Dardanians who lived there in BC times. We were talking about Albanians.

 

[Trojet]

At least we all know your agenda now. Don't worry, Kosovo is not even in question. Kosovo population is really young, estimated to 1500 years ago. None of us is connected with Dardanians who lived there in BC times. We were talking about Albanians.

There is no "agenda" with that statement I made. I just brought the possible reasons why you dismiss anything us Albanians say. We have had previous discussions on other threads and you guys dismiss every fact me and other Albanians bring up and put up your own cherry picking unproven theories to support your agenda. I have nothing against you guys. I just feel like some of you have a backwards mentality and need to move on on certain issues.

As far as Dardania goes, besides them being considered an illyrian tribe and the name "Darda" meaning "Pear" in Albanian, we have no "concrete" proof who is connected with Dardanians now, but it would be safe to assume that people living around ancient Dardania (Albanians, Serbs, Macedonians) have a lot of Dardanian ancestors.

 

[Trojet]

Double post. Please delete.

 

[Ike]

There is no "agenda" with that statement I made.
I just brought the possible reasons why you dismiss anything us Albanians say. We have had previous discussions on other threads and you guys dismiss every fact me and other Albanians bring up and put up your own cherry picking unproven theories to support your agenda.

Well, maybe if you stopped using internet as a background for you political games....
Cherry picked or not, you have to reconcile them all. Do you realize that? Otherwise, no continuity.

I have nothing against you guys. I just feel like some of you have a backwards mentality and need to move on on certain issues.

I wish you had a lot more against me, and that you built a 10m concrete wall against Yugoslavia. That would have been best. Your indifference is killing me

As far as Dardania goes, besides them being considered an illyrian tribe and the name "Darda" meaning "Pear" in Albanian, we have no "concrete" proof who is connected with Dardanians now, but it would be safe to assume that people living around ancient Dardania (Albanians, Serbs, Macedonians) have a lot of Dardanian ancestors.

Why would it be safe? We have numerous data saying that population of that parts of Balkan was annihilated during military campaigns of Romans, Macedonian, plagues, etc...
I mean, it is possible, but we don't even have a single DNA evidence.

 

[Gosh]

I have been to Austria, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Lithuania, Moldova, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, and Serbia and I found that the Croats do not look like Serbs or Poles. They look more like Hungarians or Austrians. Of course they are mixed but tend not to look like Serbs. No wonder they hate each other. Serbs look very similar to Greeks, Albanians or Bulgarians -- in other words, more Semitic or Eastern Mediterrenean. The Croats are more closer to Illyrians, Celts, and Germanics than Slavic or Greek. I21a is probably Germanic (Gothic) as the Germans occupied the whole of Slovakia, Eastern Poland, Hungary, Transylvania, Croatia, Bosnia, and northern Serbia for a long time (100BCE-500 AD). The "Croats" eventually adopted Slavic language probably because the nobility was Slavic speaking or they were flooded with Slavic conquerors.

I have also visited many of these countries but I don't share the same view with you.
a) I2a1b (not a), has frequency cca 37% between Croats, 35% between Serbs and 42% between Bosniaks (muslims)
b) R1a is cca 22% between Croats and 14-17% between Serbs and Bosniaks.

If you know these information you will understand that it is merely the same population. You are talking here about phenotype it is something rather different thing compared with Y-chromosome ancestry.
Yes, you're right, Serbs looks more like Bulgarians, Greeks or Albanians because they are geographically more close to them than Croats.

The Croats are more closer to Illyrians, Celts, and Germanics than Slavic or Greek

Frankly, this is a pure BS. We don't know how Illyrians looked like. Croats from Dalmatia are visually much more similar to Serbs than to Celts and Germans. People from the north-west Croatia is very similar to Slovenians. They looks like Hungarians, Slovaks or western Ukrainians.

 

[Ike]

Yes, you're right, Serbs looks more like Bulgarians, Greeks or Albanians because they are geographically more close to them than Croats.

Not the Serbs dude, Serbians do.

 

[Piro Ilir]

It means that it evolved close to places where ancient Greek and Roman was spoken. South Italian peninsula fits this location better than Balkans.

First time I hear this theory. North West Greek dialect and doric dialect on Albanian language dismisses your theory.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Actually, here you both right and wrong: there are Greek loanwords in Slavic, but they mostly came from medieval Greek into Old Church Slavic, and not into Proto-Slavic. In contrast, Albanian contact with Greek was much earlier (for example the Albanian word for apple, "mollë", is borrowed from Greek "mēlo" or "μηλο"). Proto-Slavic does have a few Latin borrowings actually, for example the words for vinegar (Latin "acetum", Polish "ocet"), wine (Latin "vinum", Polish "wino") or donkey (Latin "asellus", Polish "osioł"). The largest part of loanwords in Slavic actually comes from Germanic.



This statement is a contradiction. Of course Romanian has words that are of archaic Latin origin, it is a Romance language after all.

Romanian is a romance language, but it was formed later than the period of the first Roman invasion in Balkans. Illyrians were the first people submitted by the Romans. After them the tracians and the Helens. The romance language which are still spoken in Balkans show a later period of evolution. Albanian language shows a earlier period of interference by the Latin. The only logical problem between Illyrian and modern Albanian language is the division satem- centum. Albanian is satem and the Illyrian was unknown. There are evidences of centum in illyrian, and likewise of satem. Tracian show a strong evidence of satem too, but we don't have much words by the tracian language, either.
But although I read sources which saying that all this division satem centum is not too much reliable.

 

[Piro Ilir]

You need to recheck your history for occupation of modern albanian lands

bronzeage - Dorians
-then corinthians , all along the coast
-then Epirotes who allowed 2 Illyrians tribes to enter around 400BC
-then epirotes where annexed by Macedonians around 300BC
-then part annexed by Romans in 198BC in first macedonian war
-then the remainder in second Macedonian war against Romans in 146BC

- Romans built the biggest road in the Balkans stretching from Durrazzo to Istanbul. this also is the very important major road that linked the 2 Roman empire later on

You mentioned the famous via egnatia, above. The real split between the two Albanian dialects tosk and gheg was after this ancient road was built. This ancient highway is the borderline between the two dialects. Further north of this road lives the ghegs, and further south lives the tosks. This road made itself the borderline between the Albanian branches. This is another proof that Albanians were living there. Linguistic evidences show that Albanian language spoken on this areas predated the Slavic migration.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Do note that the opposite is not necessarily true - the fact that a language has Latin and Greek loanwords does not indicate that its Roman-era speakers were under Roman occupation. In many cases, the loanwords came later via peoples who were descended from and/or had themselves been occupied by Romans.

My point was that if the Serbs don't have an early interference in their language by any ancient language from which we have written evidences, this means they don't have any possibility to has any connection with the Illyrians nor with any other ancient tribes. Albanian, Greek and Romanian language shows too interference between them. The language is a clue. If we are serious, we can't ignore it.

 

[Piro Ilir]

At least we all know your agenda now. Don't worry, Kosovo is not even in question. Kosovo population is really young, estimated to 1500 years ago. None of us is connected with Dardanians who lived there in BC times. We were talking about Albanians.

At least, you need to bring any argument about your unproven theories. Probably as we know, the dardanians were one of the largest Illyrian tribes.