What do you think of homosexuality (and gay marriage) ?

[Mamoru-kun]

What's the problem Sensuikan?

 

[Sensuikan San]

:blush:



Precisely as I put in my post ... !

I don't have a problem with the issue at all!

I'm just totally confused as to why anyone else considers it an important issue.

Let everybody get on with their lives! Nobody questioned my wife and I as to wether or not we should marry ...!

?W????

 

[Mamoru-kun]

I got that point already, and am totally agree with you, so perhaps just permit me to rephrase: what's the problem with people aksing questions about laws as we are doing actually? Letting you live the life you want is a point (and once again, I personally agree with that). Letting people agree or desagree with it, have their own point of view, and discuss it on forums is another point, which should be respected too I think...

 

[Sensuikan San]

:sorry:

Yes ... you're quite right.

... but forgive me ... I'm a grumpy old guy ....!

That's my job! :wave:

... and I gave my opinion ... you may agree or disagree but, as you say, do you not respect it as such?

?W????

 

[Mamoru-kun]

... and I gave my opinion ... you may agree or disagree but, as you say, do you not respect it as such?

Not at all. It's just that I could not, and even now, find in your original post any constructive contribution to the actual subject. Of course you are free to say you like or don't like this or that, but in a subject as hot as this one, people who are discussing expect more than a "I agree" or "I desagree". And that is obviously, if I correctly understood you, something that you could provide I guess. That's why I reacted to your post, not because of your way of thinking, which is, my I say it again, something I totally agree with.

 

[Sensuikan San]

Not at all. It's just that I could not, and even now, find in your original post any constructive contribution to the actual subject. Of course you are free to say you like or don't like this or that, but in a subject as hot as this one, people who are discussing expect more than a "I agree" or "I desagree". And that is obviously, if I correctly understood you, something that you could provide I guess. That's why I reacted to your post, not because of your way of thinking, which is, my I say it again, something I totally agree with.

Oh dear, Mamoru-kun ... you have me slightly confused, now. But I admire your tenacity !

It would appear to me that what you are saying is that in your qualified opinion, my response ... is lacking verbosity?

That - although you agree with my opinion (your words) ... my opinion should not be given respect? That my opinion did not contribute to the discussion because I did not explain each and every factor in detail that contributes or may contribute to me feeling the way I do?

Do I take it that you are actually being sufficiently arrogant and sufficiently qualified to give me a test?

Fair enough ... I'll take it!

Here are my reasons for feeling the way I do ... :-

Firstly - What's so "hot" about this subject? It's only "hot" to homophobic people as far as I'm aware. Wether or not they are in the majority or not ... I confess I don't know! Truly - I believe that the "majority" agree with you and I - they don't know what all the bloody fuss is about! Even more - I don't think the "majority" give a damn one way or the other!

That's why you don't ever hear the true views of "the majority" - on this or many other issues!

So what's all the bloody fuss about?

Secondly - Homosexuality and Heterosexuality have been around for a year or two now. Both are becoming quite fashionable. I doubt wether either will ever be "stamped out" in the forthcoming future.

Homosexuality exists because it is perfectly natural among all animal groups (especially, it seeems,the anthropoid apes - including man. and curiously ... geese ...!).

It's not rational, it makes little sense from the procreative point of view, and yes ... for most heterosexuals it is perhaps objectionable and/or very hard to understand - but it is perfectly natural. Nobody devised it. Nobody designed it. Nobody ever caught it. If you "have" it or "are" it - you can't "pass it on".

It's far less damaging to society than ..... avian 'flu .....?

.... So what's all the bloody fuss about?

Thirdly - If homosexual couples wish to marry - why not? I do not see that a male/male or a female/female relationship should be any different from a male/female relationship. As a heterosexual - I can only assume that the feeling of bonding would be quite comparable, otherwise ... why would they desire the union?

And if they do choose to marry - do they actually harm another living soul ...?

No!

So .... what the hell is all the bloody fuss about?


So, Mamoro-kun, there are my three basic points to get you started in understanding "wherefrom I come" ...

Is that sufficiently verbose for you?

Am I starting to "contribute to the forum"?

Is that enough ? I do have more .... if you wish .....


Cordially,

?W????


(If it makes you feel any better - one or two of my comments may have collected me more flak than any Lancaster bomber ever received over Berlin ...! I am standing by to receive ....!)

P.S. ....I have just reviewed your own post! You didn't say much more than "agreed' or "disagreed" either! Go back and read it !

 

[Mamoru-kun]

Haaaa, thanks you, here we are...

Firstly - What's so "hot" about this subject? It's only "hot" to homophobic people as far as I'm aware. Wether or not they are in the majority or not ... I confess I don't know! Truly - I believe that the "majority" agree with you and I - they don't know what all the bloody fuss is about! Even more - I don't think the "majority" give a damn one way or the other!

That's why you don't ever hear the true views of "the majority" - on this or many other issues!

So what's all the bloody fuss about?

Well I'm not english native, so I don't understand that "fuss" thing, but if I got your point, I think that such a discution is more and more in front of topics recently because more and more gouvernments tend to discuss about it themselves. That by itself is not enough to explain, but when the medias are around, there the things can get "hot". I mean, in my own country, if I hadn't seen the news speaking about such or such country permitting the marriage between gays, I wouldn't even have wondered if it was something possible. So to answer your question (if I got it well), I guess that such discussions take place not because there is more gays, or they want to marry much often, but because the medias put it in front of news more often. And that makes people naturaly ask themselves questions.

Secondly - Homosexuality and Heterosexuality have been around for a year or two now. Both are becoming quite fashionable. I doubt wether either will ever be "stamped out" in the forthcoming future.

Homosexuality exists because it is perfectly natural among all animal groups (especially, it seeems,the anthropoid apes - including man. and curiously ... geese ...!).

It's not rational, it makes little sense from the procreative point of view, and yes ... for most heterosexuals it is perhaps objectionable and/or very hard to understand - but it is perfectly natural. Nobody devised it. Nobody designed it. Nobody ever caught it. If you "have" it or "are" it - you can't "pass it on".

It's far less damaging to society than ..... avian 'flu .....?

.... So what's all the bloody fuss about?

I heard people saying that it is "not natural", that it is something "choosen" during the childhood. Not beeing a gay myself, I'm not qualified to argue here, but I deply believe that is not true, and that it is more linked to DNA than to anything else. About the fact that it is "natural" or not, well, if it's about human behaviour, I don't see where it could be not natural (being natural things ourselves), so I agree with you there. Unfortunately, as you said, it's not a mentality easy to reach for people who are "affraid" of homosexuality (if I well remember, it's the meaning of homophobic, right?)

Thirdly - If homosexual couples wish to marry - why not? I do not see that a male/male or a female/female relationship should be any different from a male/female relationship. As a heterosexual - I can only assume that the feeling of bonding would be quite comparable, otherwise ... why would they desire the union?

And if they do choose to marry - do they actually harm another living soul ...?

No!

So .... what the hell is all the bloody fuss about?

Marriage seems to bring less problems than adoption. I even feel that marriage between gays is a problem only for catholic (or other religions)'s hetero, because it would change the meaning God (other gods) gave to it. In that situation, of course, except if God himself changes his writings, I don't see any solution to make them accept gay's marriage. About child adoptions, it's quite more difficult I think, because there, we touch a part of the humans being which, until now, seemed to be irrefutable: a child is the result of the union between a male and a female. Well, the fact that two males or two females want to have a child is (or should be), I think, not a problem. But for the child...even I, am not sure to agree with that. I mean, if an adult can bypass bad words said by other people, children usually can't. And childhood is famous for its lack of respect between young people. So I'm just wondering: how would be the life of such children (with two male or female parents) between more "usual" children? I'm afraid that it would soon become hell for him...

So, Mamoro-kun, there are my three basic points to get you started in understanding "wherefrom I come" ...

Is that sufficiently verbose for you?

Am I starting to "contribute to the forum"?

Is that enough ? I do have more .... if you wish .....


Cordially,

Thank you. I just hope that I haven't answered the wrong way. I have to say that you used some english expressions I don't know, so if it's the case, please correct me...

 

[Kuro_Tsubasa69]

QUESTION: Why would homosexuality be an abomniation to God? I have heard this alot, and i rally want to know what you peoples reason is....Rally. :?

(note: haven't read most of the thread...i just wnated to go out and ask my question 1st, 'kay? :bow: Thanx.)

 

[Sensuikan San]

Haaaa, thanks you, here we are...

Thank you. I just hope that I haven't answered the wrong way. I have to say that you used some english expressions I don't know, so if it's the case, please correct me...

Pas de probleme, mon ami! (Votre lingue...c'est Francais, n'est pas? Pas Flamand?)

Je crois que votre Anglais soit bien mieux que mon Français ! Alors ... en Anglais...

No - you answered very well! I fear that we sometimes forget that we are talking to someone who uses a different language .... and we forget the problems associated with that! My apologies to you!

It seems that we agree on this matter to a great degree! Obviously, all your points are points which I believe to be valid also. And yes ... your understanding of "homophobic" is correct. What more can I say?

I was interested though, in one point you make ... and I agree with you on this also ... ; the matter of adopted children.

My first feeling was that it is necessary for any child to be raised with a (male) 'father' and a (female) 'mother' ... but I'm not quite sure that this needs to be so ...

I know many people of many nationalities (including to a small degree, myself) who have been raised by a single parent - due to death, long absence through war, career demands ... even prison! (No! - my father was at sea most of the time!)

They are all well balanced folks!

I think that the desired component is love, and caring.

I also knowof many who have been brought up by uncaring, lazy, indolent, brutal heterosexual parents - and they became animals, or suicide victims ... or worse!

If two gays wish to adopt a child - and they can love and care - that's OK with me too!

Regards,

John

 

[Mamoru-kun]

Mmmm, yes, if we think about the child balance, it is surely better to have him under lovely gay parents than violent "usual" parents. But would it be enough for him to grow "correcty" (society speaking)? Such a child, what kind of vision will he/she have about the "relations" world? Actually, I am almost sure that the environment doesn't makes someone become gay. But for children living with gay parents, would it be the same? We don't have enough background to analyse that I think...

And by the way, I've been surprised on your french. I thought that american people (sorry, I meant, people living in America continent) don't like so much french people, and so french language (well, except in Quebec of course ). Omedetou!

QUESTION: Why would homosexuality be an abomniation to God? I have heard this alot, and i rally want to know what you peoples reason is....Rally. :?

Wasn't it just because God said it somewhere in the bible?

 

[Revenant]

Wasn't it just because God said it somewhere in the bible?

A bit on the Christian beliefs and homosexuality (I'm not Christian).

 

[Mamoru-kun]

Thanks Revenant!

Most interpret the Garden of Eden story in the book of Genesis as indicating the fall of humanity into sin. They view homosexual behavior as one evidence of that sin.

Just a word: WOW! Better to be hetero if God exists...

 

[Pachipro]

I believe that a true gay person is born that way and they have no choice in the matter. I have two experiences from my childhood to prove that point.

Case 1: I grew up with many boys on our block in New York City and we played the usual games that boys do like baseball and such. However, there was this one boy who seemed different from when we were about 7 or 8 years old. He couldn't play ball or run like the rest of us. When he tried to throw a ball, he threw it like a girl would, and when he tried to run, he ran the way a girl would. He would hang out with us as that is what he was taught and what was expected of him.

As we grew older and entered puberty he started to become more friendly and to start hanging out with the girls on the block. He seemed more comfortable with them and they liked him. He would jump rope with them and do all the girl things with them. He did try to be a "boy" so to speak and would try to play games with us but it was clear he still acted like a girl. Back then we didn't know anything about gay people, but it is clear now that he was definetly feminine and was born that way.

Needless to say, as we bacame older and began to understand about life, it was clear that he was gay and he came to understand this also. He was just born that way and had no choice in the matter. That much is very clear to me.

Case 2: While in grade school there was another boy who was a great dancer in school plays and such and would often become the director of said plays. He was very feminine looking and had the same characteristics as the boy in case one. He was popular with the girls and would always hang out with them and they just loved him. Needless to say he also was gay and was born that way.

In both cases the boys were Catholic and attended catholic schools. As we got older and began to understand about sexuality the others would make fun of them behind their backs and call them "queer" or "faggot" or some other derogotory name. I always felt sorry for them as I somehow underestood that it wasn't their choice and I was practically the only male who befriended them. They never made a pass at me nor did they speak of it. After grade school we went our seperate ways.

These two were born that way and I'm sure their only interest were other males as they were just too feminine. But, on the other hand, there are other people in this world of ours who make it a choice. These may be what are called bi-sexuals who like both sexes for the sheer pleasure of sex regardless of gender. They can be completely happy having sex with a male, a female, or both at the same time. Does this make them weird or someone to be looked down upon? In my opinion no. Whoever one has sex with, it is their choice and no one should pass judgement on them if they are not hurting another person or a minor.

Homosexuality has been around since the dawn of mankind, will be around till the end and is prevalent in all animal species. We can't stop it nor shoud we. Isn't it written in the bible, "Judge not lest ye be judged"? It's really a shame that so-called Christians cannot follow what God is saying to them in their own bible. Seems hypocritical to me. Besides, the Bible was written by MAN and not God and was revised so many times to suit certain needs or a certain King's needs that who knows what is really the truth?

 

[Pachipro]

Citation:
Post?Epar Kuro_Tsubasa69
QUESTION: Why would homosexuality be an abomniation to God? I have heard this alot, and i rally want to know what you peoples reason is....Rally.

Wasn't it just because God said it somewhere in the bible?

Thanks Revenant!

Quote:
Most interpret the Garden of Eden story in the book of Genesis as indicating the fall of humanity into sin. They view homosexual behavior as one evidence of that sin.

Just a word: WOW! Better to be hetero if God exists...

If I remember correctly, I think I was taught in Catholic school that, "God doesn't make any junk." If that is the case, why would people be born gay? Would God actually make someone gay just so he/she could be critisized and ostrasized by society in this world? If that is the case then God has a sick sense of humor in my opinion and is not really a loving God who loves all his so-called children unconditionally as I was taught.

If God did say it in the Bible why is it that alot of Catholic priests are homosexual and prey on young minor boys? Are they not going against the teachings of the Bible? I am not ashamed to admit that I was molested by a Catholic priest who was a friend of the family when I was about 14. Back then he used the excuse that he wanted me to help him rake leaves at his summer house in New Jersey. Being naieve I went along with him. At 14 I suspected that he was a little feminine by the way he talked and the way he looked, but I was not sure. Surely he couldn't be gay being a catholic priest I remember thinking.

After we raked the leaves he said that we should take a shower. He asked me to undress and escorted me to the shower. I could tell by the way that he looked at me naked that something was not right. I showered alone. After the shower he took one and said afterwards that we should take a nap. As we lay in the bed with towels around us I sensed that something was not right so I pretended to fall asleep. It was then that he removed my towel and took my penis in his mouth. I was terrified as I knew that this was not right and that he was indeed gay. I didn't know what to do at the time so I pretended to stay asleep.

To be honest, as I had never had any sexual contact before this, I was both aroused and revolted at the same time. I was so confused. I knew this was not what I wanted and soon became limp and he gave up on that. Then he turned me over and tried to enter me from behind. Then I was really terrified. I puckered up really tight and still pretended I was asleep. After a little while he became limp and gave up.

For about the next hour I pretended I was asleep while mulling over in my mind what had just happened. I knew he was gay, but was so confused as he was a priest and I knew that this wasn't right and it wasn't what I wanted. After a while he went downstairs and I pretended to awake later on. I said nothing and neither did he. He took me to dinner and then took me home.

I never said anything about that encounter as I was afraid. Who would believe me? As he was a friend of the family I didn't want to cause any trouble and I didn't even know at the time that what he did was against the law. I didn't say anything to my parents until I was about 30 and still they found it hard to believe. It was only after it became national news in the US that I found out that I wasn't the the only one. I was one of perhaps tens of thousands of boys who were taken advantage of by Catholic priests.

Did it affect me mentally? No. I knew it wasn't right as I got older, but I never let it bother me as he was gay and I was not and nothing really happened. I let it slide and never pressed charges when I really understood what was going on. I discovered later on that he died in about 1980 from a stroke. Quite young. I think he was about 50 when he died.

Do I fault him for what he did? Yes I do. Especially for taking advantage of a minor and trying to rape me. What he did was wrong even though I feel he was born that way. However, he should've been mature enough to find an adult male for his pleasure. But I also blame the Catholic church more than anything for not letting priests to marry and for covering up the rampant homosexuality among their priests. It was a feeding ground for gay men to become priests and prey on young boys in their school or parrish. Where does it say in the bible that priests cannot marry? It was probably some gay Pope who came up with that law. Surely not God.

So why are Catholics/Christians so against homosexuality when it is so rampant in their churches? And why is it better to be hetero if God exists when his own priests are raping and taking advantage of minor boys?

I don't think it matters to God one way or the other, if he exists. He gives all humans free will with no interference from him, and it is us humans who have to face the consequences of our actions after this life whatever that may be. But it surely it isn't to suffer in hell for all eternity. No loving God would do that to his "children".

 

[Revenant]

That is one harsh experience you went through. You're ability to reason it out and stay more objective is pretty impressive I think.

I do think that something about the system of priests does attract the wrong kind of people, and I don't think it has anything to do with the teachings of Christianity.

The idea of not having a wife comes from a verse that says it would be better to not have a wife, but that were one to have a wife, the person hasn't done wrong.

In another verse, it says it is better that one marry, than be consumed with passion.

In short, I think the idea was that if one could focus on serving God without a wife, then one should do that, but if one couldn't focus, then it would be better to marry.

Even in the time I considered myself a Christian, I disagreed strongly with the banning of same sex marriage. All things, as according to Christ, had to be sincere, and sincere also meant in thought. One couldn't follow a rule, but desire differently in their mind 'if you lust over a woman, you have committed adultery with her in her heart'.

I thought that from that, a gay must decide for himself/herself that they must give up their lifestyle. They would really are no different from the priests and nuns who sincerely do remain abstinent.

If a Christian can follow their chosen morality without pushing it on others, or judging others for not doing the same, then I see nothing wrong with their belief. It doesn't seem a rational one, but it would then be along the same lines as a fighter who never had sex, just cause he thought sex would take away from his ability to focus.

I don't think all Christians, Muslims, or Judaists (is that the right word?) can be faulted with being judgemental.

Lastly, if a gay were to choose to give up the lifestyle, it could be possible to still be happy, just as the Dalai Lama, nuns, priests, and Gandhi also gave up sex and were/are able to remain happy people.

I don't know about your examples of gays, as I did see some very athletic and masculine gays in Vancouver, gays who could pass for musclebound rednecks in an instant. I think part of the 'femininity' I saw in Vancouver was partly 'cultural'. The gays learned how to talk with a lisp, how to move like a gay, like people who joined gangs learned how to act like gangsters.

 

[smurf]

I am totally against being a homosexual. I think that it is sick and unnatural. I don't mean to sound juvenile but I just find it very disturbing when a person chooses to be gay. I don't understand what could draw a person to find the same sex attractive.

 

[isayhello]

Just a word: WOW! Better to be hetero if God exists...

... actually... if God does exist... and if he's against homosexuals and them marrying... I'm not gonna like God. Because being against gay marriage is stupid.

*hides from bad rep points*


- Oh, and... Smurf... what? What?

 

[smurf]

... actually... if God does exist... and if he's against homosexuals and them marrying... I'm not gonna like God. Because being against gay marriage is stupid.

*hides from bad rep points*


- Oh, and... Smurf... what? What?

Yeah I'm sorry if I sounded harsh but I strongly disagree with being gay.
*gets ready to be flamed at* :relief:

 

[Sensuikan San]

Mmmm, yes, if we think about the child balance, it is surely better to have him under lovely gay parents than violent "usual" parents. But would it be enough for him to grow "correcty" (society speaking)? Such a child, what kind of vision will he/she have about the "relations" world? Actually, I am almost sure that the environment doesn't makes someone become gay. But for children living with gay parents, would it be the same? We don't have enough background to analyse that I think...

And by the way, I've been surprised on your french. I thought that american people (sorry, I meant, people living in America continent) don't like so much french people, and so french language (well, except in Quebec of course ). Omedetou!

?????l! ?ǂ??v???܂???!

En actualitė ?c je ne suis ni Americain ?c ni Canadien ! Je suis Anglais/Irlandais! ?cMais je m?fhabite de Canada depuis 1976 et je suis un citoyen de la Grand Bretagne. J'ai visité la France et la Belgique beaucoup de fois. Mais il y a beaucoup d'années ....... !

Et mon Français... Je suis désolé ! ... J'ai oublié sa majeure partie ?c?c! Alors ?c en Anglais ?c

... and having reviewed my last post - my "French" could use a little editing, couldn't it ! Sorry folks ! :bluush:

Just an off-topic note for a few seconds - but, no ... I would not say that most North Americans were anti-French at all. The demand for learning French in Canadian schools is probably greater now than it has ever been ... although, yes ... we have had our little arguments with Quebec over the last few years! Canada is just like Belgium - it is a bi-lingual country, with all the benefits andproblems that that entails.

I cannot speak for the USA.

... but these are matters, perhaps, for a different thread ....

The question of raising children, as you say, can be a more difficult one. I agree that it is desirable for every child to have both a male and female influence upon their lives. But as I pointed out in my last post ... life is not perfect. Sometimes the desirable cannot be the attainable ... for many, many reasons. Everbody involved has to work towards an acceptable and workable goal ... and if that means gay parents ... I see nothing wrong with that, although I must confess that I feel there must always be a small element missing. But then again .. this also applies to so many children of single parents. And does environment affect the issue? - I suggest we ask a hormone ... !

I am totally against being a homosexual. I think that it is sick and unnatural. I don't mean to sound juvenile but I just find it very disturbing when a person chooses to be gay. I don't understand what could draw a person to find the same sex attractive.

I'm sorry Smurf, and I say this without any animosity towards you, but ... but that is possibly the most ridiculous, uninformed, unintelligent piece of garbage I've ever seen posted on this forum! And you do sound juvenile.

I too, cannot imagine in my wildest dreams, my snuggling up to another guy! I know where you're coming from ... but... Who was the last person you met ... who chose to be gay? (If I knew of anybody who did 'choose' ... then I would agree with you ...!)

?W????

 

[smurf]

?????l! ?ǂ??v???܂???!

I'm sorry Smurf, and I say this without any animosity towards you, but ... but that is possibly the most ridiculous, uninformed, unintelligent piece of garbage I've ever seen posted on this forum! And you do sound juvenile.

I too, cannot imagine in my wildest dreams, my snuggling up to another guy! I know where you're coming from ... but... Who was the last person you met ... who chose to be gay? (If I knew of anybody who did 'choose' ... then I would agree with you ...!)

?W????

Don't worry I agree with you, I could have worded what I said better. I just have one question about you saying that it is not there choice. How else are they gay? I've seen plenty of guys who have given up on women and decided to turn to men. If thats not choosing to be gay then what is?