Religion What does religion bring that nothing else can bring ?

[Kinsao]

(Apologies for poking my nose into this thread.)

While I can well understand why Maciamo, as an atheist, asked the question that started the thread, I also have a feeling that it is impossible to answer the question.

Because obviously, if someone does not believe in the existence of God, there is no point whatsoever to any of the organised religions, as their main aim is (in whatever ways and doctrines which differ) to worship God (or Gods, or Goddess... whatever). OK, you can be atheist and still be tolerant of other people practicing organised religion (as long as they don't try and force it on you), but you still have to believe that they are expending their efforts in a primarily pointless exercise.

Religion isn't about what you get from it, it's about what you put into it, anyway. A slick and simplistic phrase, I know, but I feel it's in some way relevant to the title of the thread. Because actually religion doesn't 'bring' anything (certainly not anything which an atheist could be expected to recognise/acknowledge). It's more what it draws out of people that makes the difference.

 

[Mycernius]

The meaning of Islam is submission to God's will. The one who submits his will to God is called a Muslim. Adam (pbuh) submitted his will to God and was the first creation of man so Islam has been there from the start but has been called different names.

I've heard this argument from virtually everyone who follows Abrahamic faith.
If anything Adam was an early Jew. Our (insert faith name here) was here from the start except in a different form.. Islam and Christianlty are off-shoots of Judaism and no matter how you try to look at it Judaism is the name of the original faith.

This one I answered in the one before but it is Islam

It is corrupted al most as much as Judaism and Christianity. If it is uncorrupted why are there two branches, Shia and Sunni? Surely there should be only one. Fundamentalists corrupt it with their interpretations of the Koran. Islamic governments corrupt it to suit their needs. The Koran itself is a mixture of Biblical and Arabic myths. You'll find the stories of Jesus, Abraham and Moses all in the Bible. They have just been retold in another way. In other words corrupted words of corrupted words

 

[belle74311]

How about 'deity'?I think that's probably because the concept of god was invented before humans even left Africa. See this article.

Diety can be used also, but it's more of a word that describes God because it means a supernatural being. I think people can relate to the word God more, so that's why I use it.

I also read the article, which they say in the very beginning to be THEORIES, which means they're just ideas. But yes, the idea of God was definately in Africa before humans left it because that idea has been there from the start of creation of man. And this article is just a theory, but even then, it's interesting to see that people who have had no idea of God, or death or anything, once they found out that this life was inevitable going to end, that they figured that there was definately a Higher Power that controls everything. This is what I was talking about before how it's in the nature of human being to worship God.

Are you saying that in the eyes of god, a dog is less good than a human ? If you believe in creationsim like any self-respecting Christian, dogs and humans are all god's creation, and therefore all equals in his eyes (I say "his" because creationists usually see god as male). In that case you should be more humble regarding human condition. Please call all humans "it", or all animals "he" or "she" according to their sex. If you are in favour of the theory of evolution, how do you justified human superiority in the eyes of god, as humans are just animals, and like all animals, descend from the same original mono-cellular life being.

Sorry I took so long to reply...trying to get to all the questions as soon as I can. I'm not sure where you're coming up with all this? I never compared humans to dogs...i just said that I would never call God "it".

So lemme make things clear...I'm not Christian, I'm Muslim. And I am not in favor of the theory of evolution. It is called a "theory" because it is only an idea. If it was proven it would be called a FACT of evolution.

In the eyes of God is a dog less good than a human being? No because humans have the choice of being good or bad. Dogs and other animals, trees, anything that has to do with nature do not have a will of their own. They follow God's will, so they're doing exactly what they're supposed to. So there's no way that a dog can be bad. Even the leaves of trees do not fall except by the will and knowledge of God.

About human superiority, humans, including YOU, are the HIGHEST of creation. Absolutely there is a superiority, but with that also comes the highest of responsibilities like did we take care of the earth or destroy it? You can not tell me that a dog and a human being are the same. Dogs have the capacity of a 2 year old...a scientific fact. Look what humans have developed and advanced in just the past century. You dont' see dogs going to the other side of the planet in less than a day on their own. You cannot claim any other animal of being capable of doing somethign like that. If you know of any, please let me know. We are all God's creations, and every single thing has its purpose, but there is a hierarchy.

And i have no problem calling a dog he or she as long as i know what it is. With humans I am able to determine who's a he and a she even if they're clothed.

 

[kumo]

So lemme make things clear...I'm not Christian, I'm Muslim. And I am not in favor of the theory of evolution. It is called a "theory" because it is only an idea. If it was proven it would be called a FACT of evolution.

The occurrence of evolution is a fact; how it occurred is a theory. The same applies to Gravity, which is "only" a theory too. You also might want to do some research on what 'theory' means in the scientific sense before showing us your ignorance.

 

[belle74311]

I've heard this argument from virtually everyone who follows Abrahamic faith.
If anything Adam was an early Jew. Our (insert faith name here) was here from the start except in a different form.. Islam and Christianlty are off-shoots of Judaism and no matter how you try to look at it Judaism is the name of the original faith.

If you look at the names "Judaism" and "Christianity" they both come from a name of a person. Judah for Judaism and Jesus Christ for Christianity. Islam is a meaning of a word. And that meaning is as I have stated before...submission to the will of God. So yes, I understand what you mean, but the earliest of Jews following Moses, submitted to God's will. If you want to term that Judaism, ok, but they still submitted their will to God. That is why we are told to accept them. A Muslim cannot be a Muslim unless he/she has accepted the previous prophets and not just Muhammed (pbuh). Judaism came after Adam (pbuh) but Adam did submit his will to God...that's what it simply means.

It is corrupted al most as much as Judaism and Christianity. If it is uncorrupted why are there two branches, Shia and Sunni? Surely there should be only one. Fundamentalists corrupt it with their interpretations of the Koran. Islamic governments corrupt it to suit their needs. The Koran itself is a mixture of Biblical and Arabic myths. You'll find the stories of Jesus, Abraham and Moses all in the Bible. They have just been retold in another way. In other words corrupted words of corrupted words

You said a very important thing."Fundamentalists corrupt it with their interpretations of the Koran. Islamic governments corrupt it to suit their needs." This is exactly right, the PEOPLE, fundamentalists, are corrupted, NOT the Quran. Shias and Sunnis can be a whole different topic all together but here's a very brief explanation. Shias don't even believe that Muhammed (pbuh) should have been the prophet. They believe that Muhammed's (pbuh) cousin Ali (may God be pleased with him) should have been the prophet. Where they get this idea from? There's NOTHING in the Quran that suggests this. AND there's nothing in Islamic texts that suggests that Ali ever claimed to be a prophet. So this is only the people's ideas.

About Quran being a mixture of biblical and arabic myths..can you give me examples please?

Of course you'll find the past prophets of God mentioned in the Quran. I'm trying to answer this in the shortest possible way I can. There's so much to say! You see with Moses (pbuh) came the Torah, and in the Torah mentions the coming of a Messiah. When Jesus Christ (pbuh) arrived, it was determined that he was the Messiah because he carried the same message as Moses (pbuh) and he fit exactly into the description of the Messiah. And with Jesus (pbuh) came the Gospels. And this is really interesting because in the Gospel of St. Barnabas, was the mention of the coming of the next prophet Muhammed (pbuh) BY NAME! You cannot currently find the Gospel of St. Barnabas because the church decided to take it out of the bible. Hmmmm I wonder why? So of course in its uncorrupted state, the Torah and the Gospels are acceptable to Muslims. But where is the original Torah? Where is the Original Gospel? Even the oldest Torah they can find is in Greek and clearly it was not revealed in Greek...So it's not original.

The purpose of the Quran? To confirm AND correct all the corruption in the other books. Just like Jesus was sent to the Isrealites to warn and correct them. I can go on and on, but this is just a gist of the topic.

There is not one single contradiction in the Quran, there is not one single disproved scientific fact in the Quran. If you pick up a Quran in Japan, and one in Malaysia, one in India, Egypt, France, American, it is all EXACTLY the same. There is not one punctuation missing in the Quran. For over 1400 years it has been kept perserved because it is the word of God. And God said He Himself would preserve and protected. And what is meant by Quran is the ARABIC only. Because it was revealed in Arabic. If there is a traslation or interpretation of the Quran and those have punctuation mistakes or spelling errors, those are not considered Quran but only the human handiwork in interpreting it.

I really enjoy receiving all these quetions but it is such a HUGE and important topic and I can't do justice to it in one page. If you REALLY do want to know. I suggest going to this website: http://www.aswatalislam.net

Under "Audio" click "Lectures" there is a huge list of scholars who speak on several different subjects. I suggest listening to Zakir Naik or Ahmad Deedat. There's a huge list to pick from and he covers many different topics including a debate about Quran and modern science which is really interesting. Although some audio quality is poor, it's really worth it.


One thing to consider though is just as right now the messege of God and His Universal way is being shown to you here in this tiny forum online, similarily throughout the ages you can now understand that this messege can permiate everywhere by God's Grace wherever He pleases. He takes it upon Himself to show you the way in order to benefit yourself spiritually and otherwise here and in the Hereafter, and the proof is that it is happening right now infront of you on your screen! It is your choice, the free will you have been given, that will determine what you do next with this Messege and invitation to at least learn more about God's way of Islam and prove it to yourself.

Hey if you believe that what i'm telling are lies and false, then I'm the one who has to take responsibility for it in the end. But what IF it turns out to be the truth? What if?

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I also read the article, which they say in the very beginning to be THEORIES, which means they're just ideas...It is called a "theory" because it is only an idea. If it was proven it would be called a FACT of evolution.

As Kumo says, you are misunderstanding what the word 'theory' means in science. You are using 'theory' in the lay sense, that in science would be called 'conjecture' - speculation or assumption based on limited knowledge. In science the meaning of 'theory' doesn't have the same implication of doubt - it is "A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena".

About human superiority, humans, including YOU, are the HIGHEST of creation. Absolutely there is a superiority, but with that also comes the highest of responsibilities like did we take care of the earth or destroy it? You can not tell me that a dog and a human being are the same. Dogs have the capacity of a 2 year old...a scientific fact. Look what humans have developed and advanced in just the past century. You dont' see dogs going to the other side of the planet in less than a day on their own. You cannot claim any other animal of being capable of doing somethign like that. If you know of any, please let me know. We are all God's creations, and every single thing has its purpose, but there is a hierarchy.

If you believe that humans are superior because they are more technically capable, do you also believe in a hierarchy amongst humans, with the mentally disabled at the bottom and engineers, scientists, artists etc at the top? Also, who's to say that the things we can do that animals can't make us superior? A squid is superior at living underwater, an eagle can fly unaided and a dog can lick his own arse. Yes, we can travel across the globe in a day, but a goose can do so unaided, so surely in that sense he is superior.

 

[kumo]

There is not one single contradiction in the Quran

How many do you need?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/contra.htm
http://www.secularislam.org/guide/mirza.htm
http://www.rim.org/muslim/quranproblems.htm
http://www.exmuslim.com/khaled/contra.htm
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html

 

[Mycernius]

About Quran being a mixture of biblical and arabic myths..can you give me examples please?

Okay:
Jinns
The Garden of Eden from Biblical source
Catholic limbo
Origin of Allah
Arabic Goddess mention in Koran
This is just from the letter A. I could continue, but you might find it easier to read the links yourself

 

[No-name]

Religion isn't about what you get from it, it's about what you put into it, anyway. A slick and simplistic phrase, I know, but I feel it's in some way relevant to the title of the thread. Because actually religion doesn't 'bring' anything (certainly not anything which an atheist could be expected to recognise/acknowledge). It's more what it draws out of people that makes the difference.

Hey Kinsao, I noticed your post a while ago, but it kinda stuck with me like the old Kennedy quote ("Ask not what your country can do..")
I like this. Thank you...I find it quite elegant.

Are we off on some anti-Islamic tangent? or are we still discussing the more general "religion" topic?

I believe in God, I call myself a Christian, but I don't feel particularly religious.

 

[bossel]

For about 300 years after Jesus (pbuh) his followers did NOT believe him to be the son of God.

Wrong, AFAIK, right from the beginning there were varying factions among Christians.

Otherwise the Greeks and Roman wouldn't be that tolerant of a completely new religion being taken.

It was not completely new, but it was around for some 300 years (in the Roman empire & elsewhere).

If you look in Hindu texts in several locations you will find that it specifically says that God is only ONE.

Yep, that's Ishvara. & if you look further you'll find the devas. You could call them manifestations of Ishvara, but in general they have pretty individual characters, I think, which equals being independent entities in the sense we discussed earlier: having 20 (or 33, or 330m) different bosses.

If a person has not heard of ANY religion, surely he/she will have heard of God.

How?

once they found out that this life was inevitable going to end, that they figured that there was definately a Higher Power that controls everything

It's more like: once they figured that their life would end, they needed some consolation. For they wanted to live forever. So some leaders probably got the idea that if they provided a nice enough eternity, people would follow their words (IE them) easier.

If it was proven it would be called a FACT of evolution.

Evolution as such is a fact, there are only questions left about how it works in detail.

anything that has to do with nature do not have a will of their own

Chimps are not part of nature? Bonobos? Orang Utans? Gorillas? ...

Dogs have the capacity of a 2 year old...a scientific fact.

Capacity of a 2-year old in what?

Shias don't even believe that Muhammed (pbuh) should have been the prophet. They believe that Muhammed's (pbuh) cousin Ali (may God be pleased with him) should have been the prophet.

Do I sense a slight bias here? This is quite a misrepresentation. If I'm not mistaken, Shia do believe in Mohammed being the prophet, but that Ali would have been his "natural" successor as leader (not prophet) of all Muslims.

And this is really interesting because in the Gospel of St. Barnabas, was the mention of the coming of the next prophet Muhammed (pbuh) BY NAME! You cannot currently find the Gospel of St. Barnabas because the church decided to take it out of the bible.

Oh my! The Gospel of Barnabas.
That little medieval fake (oooh, I meant antique relic) that was nowhere to be found (or mentioned) until the 16th century.

Sorry, but all evidence points to a rather late origin of this piece. The mentioning of Mohammed is no wonder then.

BTW, AFAIK, the GoB calls Mohammed the Messiah. What's your opinion?

And what is meant by Quran is the ARABIC only.

But every human being interprets language differently. Hence, even speakers of Arabic will find points open to interpretation.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I believe in God, I call myself a Christian, but I don't feel particularly religious.

Maybe that's why you are much more open-minded and tolerant than some of the more religious people here appear to be.

 

[belle74311]

As Kumo says, you are misunderstanding what the word 'theory' means in science. You are using 'theory' in the lay sense, that in science would be called 'conjecture' - speculation or assumption based on limited knowledge. In science the meaning of 'theory' doesn't have the same implication of doubt - it is "A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena".If you believe that humans are superior because they are more technically capable, do you also believe in a hierarchy amongst humans, with the mentally disabled at the bottom and engineers, scientists, artists etc at the top? Also, who's to say that the things we can do that animals can't make us superior? A squid is superior at living underwater, an eagle can fly unaided and a dog can lick his own arse. Yes, we can travel across the globe in a day, but a goose can do so unaided, so surely in that sense he is superior.

Ok, the word in scientific terms is "evolution" - the idea that living things in our world have come into being through unguided naturalistic processes starting from a primeval mass of subatomic particles and radiation, over approximately 20 billion years.

That's fine for people who solely hang on to science. But I don't believe that anything is unguided. God is watching over the whole thing and has a greater plan than our wisdom can imagine.

Yes you are right Tsuyoiko, the birds can fly and the squid can live underwater. But the technology has made it that humans can practically live underwater (submarines), fly in the air (airplane) and even live in space (space stations). Don't get me wrong, the creations of God are far better than our own, but what i'm saying is that God gave us humans far more capability than any of the other creations.

As to a hierarchy between humans? There is a hierarchy ONLY according to spirituality. If you are more spiritual, you are higher in the eyes of God. Not because you're an artist, scientist or engineer lol. That doesn't make any difference. It's what you do with the talents, qualities that God gave you. Just because a person is mentally disabled doesn't mean they're at the bottom. That's not the way Muslims look at society at least. On the other hand, mentally disabled people struggle in their life in ways we can not understand, and God willing they even go automatically to heaven because of those challenges.

 

[belle74311]

How many do you need?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/contra.htm
http://www.secularislam.org/guide/mirza.htm
http://www.rim.org/muslim/quranproblems.htm
http://www.exmuslim.com/khaled/contra.htm
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html

Thanks for the sites Kumo. I'm really learning a lot about how people love to distort the Quran because there's no mistake or contradiction in it. And it makes me even stronger in my faith. You gave me a lot of stuff here, and it's obvious that i can't go through each one of them on this site. So here's something even better and far superior to my knowledge:

http://www.submission.org/answering-Islam.htm

I have only been able to look at one of the links you showed because there's a lot of stuff in there. But the site above, if i'm not mistaken, answers every single contradiction. It's there to go through and look at if you want.

And here's another:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/shabir.ally/new_page_6.htm

It answers the supposed contradiction of the inheritance law in the Quran. This site contains 3 pages worth of information on just that one topic that will completely disprove those claims. It just goes to show how much answers can be given on just one false claim.

 

[belle74311]

Okay:
Jinns
The Garden of Eden from Biblical source
Catholic limbo
Origin of Allah
Arabic Goddess mention in Koran
This is just from the letter A. I could continue, but you might find it easier to read the links yourself

Hey Mycernius...all the links took me to one site. Is that supposed to happen? I was really interested in looking through them.

 

[belle74311]

Hey Kinsao, I noticed your post a while ago, but it kinda stuck with me like the old Kennedy quote ("Ask not what your country can do..")
I like this. Thank you...I find it quite elegant.

Are we off on some anti-Islamic tangent? or are we still discussing the more general "religion" topic?

I believe in God, I call myself a Christian, but I don't feel particularly religious.

Hey Sabro...I agree with you. We have gone off the topic and I appologize for that because I know I had something to do w/it

But I felt that it's my duty to answer questions that were asked as best as possible. But I also did answer the original question asked as well so I hope that counts for something

 

[belle74311]

Yep, that's Ishvara. & if you look further you'll find the devas. You could call them manifestations of Ishvara, but in general they have pretty individual characters, I think, which equals being independent entities in the sense we discussed earlier: having 20 (or 33, or 330m) different bosses.

If you refer to the website of the audio lectures, there's an Indian man named Zakir Naik that will tell you ALL about Hindi religion.

How?

You know scientists and researchers...they love testing everything out. There was a research where they took children from different religions and kept them away from any human contact (which I think is really sad to do to a person) to see what they would believe when they grew up. No information was given to them, and they believed in God.

And in Islam, God says that a person will believe in one God at one point of their life from the age of 0-40.


It's more like: once they figured that their life would end, they needed some consolation. For they wanted to live forever. So some leaders probably got the idea that if they provided a nice enough eternity, people would follow their words (IE them) easier.

It's more like we humans have the intellect to figure it out and put 2 and 2 together.


Chimps are not part of nature? Bonobos? Orang Utans? Gorillas? ...

Of course they are!!! Anything not human made is part of nature.


Do I sense a slight bias here? This is quite a misrepresentation. If I'm not mistaken, Shia do believe in Mohammed being the prophet, but that Ali would have been his "natural" successor as leader (not prophet) of all Muslims.

If that was the case, they wouldn't put Ali (may God be please w/him) higher than the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). That would mean that the Shia's deal would be with Abu Bakr (May God be please w/him) who succeeded Prophet (pbuh) as the Islamic leader and not with Prophet (pbuh).


Oh my! The Gospel of Barnabas.
That little medieval fake (oooh, I meant antique relic) that was nowhere to be found (or mentioned) until the 16th century.

Haha..very funny. I'm not Christian so I don't take offense to it. Either way...why would the mention of Muhammed (pbuh) be "invented" into Christian scripture if they're so against it?


BTW, AFAIK, the GoB calls Mohammed the Messiah. What's your opinion?

what does AFAIK and GoB mean? Sorry i'm ignorant w/the abreviations!:souka:


But every human being interprets language differently. Hence, even speakers of Arabic will find points open to interpretation.

Of course speakers of Arabic will find their own interpretation. But what i meant was that if you open up Quran...let's just say an English translation/interpretation...then you will find that the Arabic (Quran) is on the right and the interpretation is on the left. This is why it is usually called interpretation because the Arabic in the Quran is so eloquent that it is not possible to fully translate in other languages.

Like in Japanese..there are terms or sayings that if you translate them into English, it's not as charming.

 

[belle74311]

OOPS sorry Bossel...I answered within the purple box as well! :relief:

And again, sorry guys for taking up so much space. I don't think I have attacked you guys personally...and I'm sorry if you feel as though I have. Everyone has their own beliefs and just because we don't agree w/each other doesn't mean we can't share our views right? I hope so at least!

Anyways it's time for Katamari for me and have a good day guys! Ciao!

 

[No-name]

Maybe that's why you are much more open-minded and tolerant than some of the more religious people here appear to be.

You are way too kind. I may be tolerant, but I am only open-minded to a point. Religiosity really bothers me though- I always remember that Jesus reserved his harshest words not for the "sinners" of his day- the tax collectors and prostitutes and other society dregs, but for the religious leaders and the religious establishment. I somehow doubt that God is all that impressed with religion.


Belle- you could start another thread to discuss Islam in this area. (Prepare to be slammed a bit with some really edgy resonses) I think it is fascinating and in our day and age- an area that Westerners lack much of an understanding.

 

[Mycernius]

Belle- you could start another thread to discuss Islam in this area. (Prepare to be slammed a bit with some really edgy resonses) I think it is fascinating and in our day and age- an area that Westerners lack much of an understanding.

I was thinking of starting one yesterday, but I hadn't enough time. I might start one today along the lines of Islam: Conceptions and misconceptions, as we seem to have gone slightly off topic in this thread with the discussion of Islam.

EDIT: I have started a new thread on Islam here so this thread can get back to its original question. Mike

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Don't get me wrong, the creations of God are far better than our own, but what i'm saying is that God gave us humans far more capability than any of the other creations.

More capable does not mean more superior or higher in a hierarchy, IMO.

As to a hierarchy between humans? There is a hierarchy ONLY according to spirituality. If you are more spiritual, you are higher in the eyes of God

I have three problems with this. Firstly, you are proposing two completely different hierarchies - one between species and one between humans. That makes god sound inconsistent. Secondly, how can spirituality be measured? I'm just as spiritual in my own way as a religious person, but how can I prove it? Weigh my heart against a feather or something? Finally, I have a real problem with the idea that 'more spiritual=better'. My husband is far less spiritual than me - he doesn't really consider the 'big questions' like I do. But he's a much more useful member of society than I am - he cares about social issues - he's a union rep and has helped a lot of people at work. In that sense he is much 'better' than me. As far as 'goodness' goes, isn't his contribution to society more valuable than my spirituality?

It's what you do with the talents, qualities that God gave you.

Now I'm confused. I thought it was spirituality that counts. What does that have to do with how you use your talents?