What Europeans think of each other

[Grizzly]

in no case was a mass migration

Spanish immigration in France represented several hundreds of thousands of persons. Even today, there are still more than 100 000 of French with a Spanish citizenship. In contrary to British or Dutch, they come from the last economical immigration waves.

http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/tableau.asp?reg_id=0&ref_id=etrangersnat

we were industrialized in the 18th century, 19 blast furnaces, sugar factories, textile, food, etc.

Speaking about proportions, economical and sociological impact, nothing to do with France, UK, Belgium or Germany. Industrialization was quite marginal in Spain.

but daring to describe Spain as a third world country is just a symptom of fear of a potential competitor

It was about the past (decades before the 80's), not the present.

 

[Grizzly]

i'm sorry i don't want to bring animosity. maybe i was too critic.

Italian cusine is mostly mediterranean, only in northern italy you don't find standard mediterranean cusine, with plates such as Polenta and Fonduta.

I may mistake, but it seems to me that even in Northern Italy, there are a lot of typical mediterranean features in the food by the regular use of tomatos, spices and olive oil.

And according to the italian wiki, "fonduta" is related to Switzerland, France and Val d'Aoste. Not really "Italian".

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonduta

 

[Wilhelm]

It was about the past (decades before the 80's), not the present.

We are still waiting for the evidence. :innocent:

 

[Grizzly]

We are still waiting for the evidence. :innocent:

Just read the thread... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capita&date=1960

 

[Wilhelm]

Just read the thread... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capita&date=1960

First of all, Spain ranks 34, which is not that different from today's ranking (around 25-30). And second : Third-worldness is not measured by per-capita but by HDI and other index such as poverty.

 

[Carlitos]

Grizzly
Spanish immigration in France represented several hundreds of thousands of persons. Even today, there are still more than 100 000 of French with a Spanish citizenship. In contrary to British or Dutch, they come from the last economical immigration waves.

http://sauce.pntic.mec.es/jotero/Emigra3/cuantos.htm


According to official figures from the Spanish Institute of Migration (IEE) between 1959 and 1973 migrated to Europe one million (1,066,440), 71% of those who left out of Spain in those fifteen years.
Unlike previous migrations, in the sixties there is a migration from a rotating basis. Most emigrants left the country for an employment contract, established between the Spanish Institute of Emigration and the authorities of host countries, for an initial period of one year.
This feature promotes a flow of outputs and annual returns, and a close relationship between the recipient country's economic situation and the volume of employment contracts offered by Spain.
The annual average displacement of that period was 73,000 people and, if you discount the returnees, of 38,800.

Speaking about proportions, economical and sociological impact, nothing to do with France, UK, Belgium or Germany. Industrialization was quite marginal in Spain.

Spain can be considered from the perspective of industrialization, as belonging to the second generation of industrial countries in Europe with a late addition, just under a century after the first Industrial Revolution.

In the period from 1840 to 1930 the country was foremost supplier of raw materials destined for Central Europe and in a second degree, albeit progressive, joined as a producer of industrial goods. It would take nearly a quarter of a century that the advanced countries of Europe and North America to be inserted into the second phase of the technology revolution, this gap was quickly recovered in a short period between 1960 and 1973, which is called [[[Spanish miracle]]. The global recession caused by rising oil prices, which was added competition of the third generation of industrialized countries that emerged from some Latin American and Southeast Asia, revealed the structural weaknesses of the Spanish industrial system, which experienced during the next ten years one of the most acute crisis among industrialized countries.

In Spain there is a saying: Better late than never.
It is a risky venture to say that industrialization in Spain is a fact, "marginal. "

It was about th
Quote:Originalmente publicado por Carlitos


but daring to describe Spain as a third world country is just a symptom of fear of a potential competitor

Grizzly
It was about the past (decades before the 80's), not the present.

The term Third World was coined by French economist Alfred Sauvy in 1952, drawing a parallel with the French term third State to designate countries that do not belong to any of the two blocks that were faced in the Cold War, the Western bloc (U.S., Western Europe, Japan, Canada, South Korea, Australia and its allies) and the Communist Bloc (USSR, Eastern Europe, China). Currently, so anachronistic (the "second world" of the "socialist bloc"has disappeared as a concept), the term is so imprecise to refer to the peripheral countries underdeveloped or "developing", in contrast to developed countries in the latter current sense, the term is sometimes used to refer collectively to all developed countries, and sometimes to refer only to those who recorded the worst levels of human and economic development.

France in the past has also been a third world country, indeed around the world world has ever been past the third world.

 

[julia90]

I may mistake, but it seems to me that even in Northern Italy, there are a lot of typical mediterranean features in the food by the regular use of tomatos, spices and olive oil.

And according to the italian wiki, "fonduta" is related to Switzerland, France and Val d'Aoste. Not really "Italian".

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonduta

well, melted cheeses are common all along the western alpine chain, in france you have fondue and raclette, in italy Fonduta is a piedmont regional dish eaten all along the alps and the prealps.
it's quite common there.

in northern and central italy you don't find tomato sauces in the tradition, the use of tomatoes for sauces is a southern italian tradition.
in northern italy they do use olive oil too, but a bit less than in southern italy, because in northern italy olive trees don't grow except in liguria and around the lombard lakes.
olive trees start to grow from tuscany to sicily, with that two northern italian exception

this map shows the areas (in green) where olive trees grow:

 

[Grizzly]

in northern and central italy you don't find tomato sauces in the tradition, the use of tomatoes for sauces is a southern italian tradition.

Tuscany or Emilia-Romagna are yet in the northern-half of the country, and they use tomatoes, in the bolognese sauce for example and probably other dishes.

 

[Grizzly]

http://sauce.pntic.mec.es/jotero/Emigra3/cuantos.htm


According to official figures from the Spanish Institute of Migration (IEE) between 1959 and 1973 migrated to Europe one million (1,066,440), 71% of those who left out of Spain in those fifteen years.
Unlike previous migrations, in the sixties there is a migration from a rotating basis.

You try to decrease the impact of the Spanish immigration in France, by puting in relief the turn-over. But :
- you are refering to a small period of the Spanish immigration. As I have already posted, with the INSEE link, there is still a hundred of thousands of people with a Spanish citizenship in France. If I follow your logic, it means that the immigration wave was far superior to this number.
- many sources present the same proportions of migrants at the beginning of the century. See for example "Gérard Noiriel, Le creuset français - histoire de l'immigration , XIX-XXes siècles" : there was about a hundred of thousand of Spanish in France in 1914.
- this turn-over is the same about all the migrants. In US, it was (and maybe it still be) the same for the Mexicans, or formely the Italians, but also now for the Africans or the Asians in Europe.
- even you're right about the turn-over feature, it does not change the basis of my point : Spanish have migrated to find work and money in France (but also in Germany, Switzerland or UK).

 

[Grizzly]

Spain can be considered from the perspective of industrialization, as belonging to the second generation of industrial countries in Europe with a late addition, just under a century after the first Industrial Revolution.

"Just" under a century ? But a century in the recent History of Europe is not nothing. It means that Spain has completely missed the Industrial Revolution. The fact that some industrialization is growing since WWII does not change anything. The actual "thirld-world" countries are becoming industrialized now too (China, Latin America, South-East Asia...).

In the period from 1840 to 1930 the country was foremost supplier of raw materials destined for Central Europe and in a second degree, albeit progressive, joined as a producer of industrial goods.

Supplying raw materials has nothing to do with industrialization : this last is the transformation of the raw materials to become goods for cunsumption. Africa or Latin America supply many raw materials to Europe or Northern America. Spain will be a minor actor in good-producing in Europe until the 80's.

It would take nearly a quarter of a century that the advanced countries of Europe and North America to be inserted into the second phase of the technology revolution, this gap was quickly recovered in a short period between 1960 and 1973, which is called [[[Spanish miracle]]. The global recession caused by rising oil prices, which was added competition of the third generation of industrialized countries that emerged from some Latin American and Southeast Asia, revealed the structural weaknesses of the Spanish industrial system, which experienced during the next ten years one of the most acute crisis among industrialized countries.

Yes, this is what the english wiki says...with few source. The one quoted (J.L Garcia Ruiz) shows that Spain was at the same level with some Latin America countries and far behind Western Europe for vehicle industry. Anyway, this boom does not seem to be typically "Spanish". This period was economically a boom everywhere, even in Africa or Asia.

the term is so imprecise to refer to the peripheral countries underdeveloped or "developing", in contrast to developed countries in the latter current sense, the term is sometimes used to refer collectively to all developed countries, and sometimes to refer only to those who recorded the worst levels of human and economic development.

The semantic debate does not change my point : Spain was rather a poor, a thirld-world, an undevelopped...country until the 80's, whatever the sense you give to this expression. It is not an injure, just a fact.

 

[Sirius2b]

What ignorance, Northern Italy is Alpine not Mediterranean and their cuisine is derived from the French and German one, LOL!!!!
EPIC FAILURE!

Listen, I really don't want to waste my time with you, but Italy has nothing to learn from Spain. Our economy is better not becouse we are more people but becouse we have more industries, otherwise, following your concept, India should be richer than us. Strage way to think
Or do you think that also Germany and France are richer than Spain ONLY becouse they have more people?

Second, we have also the highest IQ of Europe, more nobel prizes than Spain, more variety in cuisine (probably you know only pizza and pasta, but we have an infinity of dishes some of the inspired to the French cuisine, other to the Greek and other to the German, so, make a tour in a good site of Italian cuisine and learn something).

Third, Italian fashion is considered to be the best in the world together with the French, we have Ferrari, Ducati, Lamborghini, ecc.ecc.

Even Argentinians, the only true European country in Southern American, loves to underline the way they are Italian and to regret the Spanish culture/ancestry.

Tell me if I am wrong, and this is it just me... or the Spaniards here manage to alienate a good percentage of people in these forums... ?

(Certainly, this is not uniform... I have noticed that U.K. people trend to be much more resilient to this effect... )

But... why made @Lynx be so rude against Italians?

Italian culture, design, fashion and its historical contributions to the World are universally admired by people of good taste, with a minimum of education.

However, @Lynx seems to believe that nothing worthy of learning or admiration could come from there...

I understand perfectly the reaction of @Sybilla.

And finally...

It seems to me that Spaniards suffer some inferiority complexes towards Italy. I've noticed that becouse on forums Spaniars the first thing to do is insulting Italians. Pathetic and sad behavour.

As I don't mean to offend Spain as a whole but only this idiot, I stress the fact that Italians, as a nation, love Spain and consider Spaniards our brothers. So, very strange behavour the Lynx's one...

I for one, have friendly recommended @Lynx to make a deep soul searching... analyse from where there come this vision of the world that made him act like this.

Certainly, he represents a X percentage of Spaniards,... but there is another Y percentage, and I hope they are the mayority, that are a bit or much more spiritually and intellectually evolved.

And for the rest of the users of the forums, that may be interested in understanding both types, I recommend a very great novel from that great Austrian-Jewish writer, Vicki Baum... "Headless Angel" (1948).

(Unfortunatelly, almost impossible to get a copy nowadays).

But if you do, you will understad a lot about Spaniards.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

What ignorance, Northern Italy is Alpine not Mediterranean and their cuisine is derived from the French and German one, LOL!!!!
EPIC FAILURE!

Listen, I really don't want to waste my time with you, but Italy has nothing to learn from Spain. Our economy is better not becouse we are more people but becouse we have more industries, otherwise, following your concept, India should be richer than us. Strage way to think
Or do you think that also Germany and France are richer than Spain ONLY becouse they have more people?

Second, we have also the highest IQ of Europe, more nobel prizes than Spain, more variety in cuisine (probably you know only pizza and pasta, but we have an infinity of dishes some of the inspired to the French cuisine, other to the Greek and other to the German, so, make a tour in a good site of Italian cuisine and learn something).

Third, Italian fashion is considered to be the best in the world together with the French, we have Ferrari, Ducati, Lamborghini, ecc.ecc.

Even Argentinians, the only true European country in Southern American, loves to underline the way they are Italian and to regret the Spanish culture/ancestry.

It seems to me that Spaniards suffer some inferiority complexes towards Italy. I've noticed that becouse on forums Spaniars the first thing to do is insulting Italians. Pathetic and sad behavour.

As I don't mean to offend Spain as a whole but only this idiot, I stress the fact that Italians, as a nation, love Spain and consider Spaniards our brothers. So, very strange behavour the Lynx's one...

What do you consider to be Alpine Italy? Not all of Northern Italy is Alpine. Doesn't really matter, does it?

BTW, why do you use such bold letters (as insults)? No one else here does that. Time to calm down.

 

[Wilhelm]

The semantic debate does not change my point : Spain was rather a poor, a thirld-world, an undevelopped...country until the 80's, whatever the sense you give to this expression. It is not an injure, just a fact.

Repeating the same lie over and over doesn't make it a truth.

 

[Sybilla]

I never said "Italy should learn from Spain", ragazza... I said that "we don't see Italy as a role model, but something we have to avoid to become".
Ciao.

Read again your post. IT WAS OFFENSIVE. Even a (honest) blind can see that.

Hey, that's not true! I also become friendly when I'm drunk of other stuff than beer. Or when I'm stoned! :cool-v:

In Germany we have a saying: "Germans love Italians without respecting them. Italians respect Germans without loving them."

I was exposing only the general view that Italians have of Germans. In my case I admire them and when they are polite with Italians I even love them, for many things. I think that Italy has many things in common with Germany: great literature and philosophy, classical music, art, folk tales. I like you Germans, so if you want my opinion I disagree with many Italians about Germans.

I may mistake, but it seems to me that even in Northern Italy, there are a lot of typical mediterranean features in the food by the regular use of tomatos, spices and olive oil.

In Northern Italy people cook with butter, not with olive oil, use more meat and a lot of cheeses. It is very well know that Northern Italian cuisine has been influenced by French cuisine, and it is very sad that you want to deny that. And why then? Even the cheese was invented by Romans (casius), so it is maybe the Roman cuisine that influenced the French one. :innocent:

Tell me if I am wrong, and this is it just me... or the Spaniards here manage to alienate a good percentage of people in these forums... ?

(Certainly, this is not uniform... I have noticed that U.K. people trend to be much more resilient to this effect... )

But... why made @Lynx be so rude against Italians?

Italian culture, design, fashion and its historical contributions to the World are universally admired by people of good taste, with a minimum of education.

However, @Lynx seems to believe that nothing worthy of learning or admiration could come from there...

I understand perfectly the reaction of @Sybilla.

And finally...



I for one, have friendly recommended @Lynx to make a deep soul searching... analyse from where there come this vision of the world that made him act like this.

Certainly, he represents a X percentage of Spaniards,... but there is another Y percentage, and I hope they are the mayority, that are a bit or much more spiritually and intellectually evolved.

Thank you.

What do you consider to be Alpine Italy? Not all of Northern Italy is Alpine Doesn't really matter, does it?

BTW, why do you use such bold letters (as insults)? No one else here does that. Time to calm down.

Alpine Italy is the area of Italy that lies on or around the Alps, but also in some areas of the Appennine the culture, especially in cuisine, is pretty similar. To be fully apinic are Trentino-Alto Adige, Friuli Venezia Giulia, half Veneto, most of the Lombardy, Valle d'Aosta, Piemonte and part of Liguria.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Read again your post. IT WAS OFFENSIVE. Even a (honest) blind can see that.



I was exposing only the general view that Italians have of Germans. In my case I admire them and when they are polite with Italians I even love them, for many things. I think that Italy has many things in common with Germany: great literature and philosophy, classical music, art, folk tales. I like you Germans, so if you want my opinion I disagree with many Italians about Germans.



In Northern Italy people cook with butter, not with olive oil, use more meat and a lot of cheeses. It is very well know that Northern Italian cuisine has been influenced by French cuisine, and it is very sad that you want to deny that. And why then? Even the cheese was invented by Romans (casius), so it is maybe the Roman cuisine that influenced the French one. :innocent:



Thank you.



Alpine Italy is the area of Italy that lies on or around the Alps, but also in some areas of the Appennine the culture, especially in cuisine, is pretty similar. To be fully apinic are Trentino-Alto Adige, Friuli Venezia Giulia, half Veneto, most of the Lombardy, Valle d'Aosta, Piemonte and part of Liguria.

Obviously N. Italian cuisine is different than what you find in he south. Northerners use olive oil less, but pasta and tomatoes are hardly absent. Both northern and southern dishes are excellent. The only thing I don't particularly like are polenta and rice. Not much to argue about here.

You find regional differences in cuisine throughout Europe. No big woop...

 

[Carlitos]

In Spain usually admires European countries in general and in particular major in our area, Italy, France, Germany, for contributions and development which have contributed to the world, does not exist in any ordinary citizen malice toward any country in our environment. Spain is mainly a tourist destination that makes us open and outgoing to the foreign visitor, besides being a Western country have been open to the world for what we consider Mexico as a sister country, the strong ties that bind us inseparable. The Spanish know what we are and who we are and where we are today, we have no complex because we know we can be in the future, which certainly goes for the union, cooperation and good relations.

 

[julia90]

Tuscany or Emilia-Romagna are yet in the northern-half of the country, and they use tomatoes, in the bolognese sauce for example and probably other dishes.

well in tuscany the cusine is definitely mediterranean, because here olive trees grow.
in emilia their regional cusine has ragout, you are right.
and north of rome and in all italy fresh toamtoes are common, except along the alpine chain; but the use of tomato's sauces, begins from tuscany to south; in tuscany we have "pappa al pomodoro", that uses tomato sauce.
but you won't find tomato as a liquid sauce north of florence.

Tuscany isn't considered northern italy; it's considered central italy, and when people want to be more precise it's considered centre-north italy.
Emilia-Romagna you are right it's plain north italy.

 

[julia90]

I've found this funny pics online:

How Italians see the other europeans

How French see the other Europeans:

How Germans see other Europeans:

How Bulgarians see other Europeans:

How British see other Europeans:

How Poles see other Europeans:

How Swiss see other Europeans:

How Turks see Europeans:

How Russians see Europeans:

How the Holy See see other Europeans:

How Gays see Europeans:

How Northern Italians see Italy:

 

[Antigone]

I've seen these before and the maps are massive generalisations, of course, but are still very funny. I like the British one, the Brits can be so xenophobic and they do get their knickers in a knot over the EU!

 

[Sirius2b]

Ha, ha, ha...

Thanks, @Julia90, these maps are freaking hylarious...

Thanks.