Where did haplogroup T first originate

Where did haplogroup T first originate

  • The levantine coast (Lebanon, Israel,Jordan)

    Votes: 5 15.6%
  • The Persian gulf region ( southwestern Iran)

    Votes: 11 34.4%
  • The pamir knot (Afghanistan/Tajikistan) frontier

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • By the Red Sea (Saudi Arabian coast.)

    Votes: 3 9.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 9 28.1%

  • Total voters
    32
To me, nailing the origin of T in the Mediterranean is actually pretty simple; we just need to take a look at southern Iberia. First of all, there's a very coastal Mediterranean bias for T in Europe; particularly west-Central Europe (Iberia+Italy and islands especially). Other than minor 5-10% highs in coastal cantabria or Asturias (probable Phoenician origin as well) there are the Tras O Montes Portuguese Jews that show about 15% T in their communities. These are small and isolated however. The question is, why is there 7% T in Andalusia? Why does Cadiz in particular have 10% T? Why does Ibiza have 17% T? Who visited these regions? The Phoenicians. We know Ibiza derives it's name from Phoenician Ybossim. There are also small Jewish communities on the Ibiza islands, notably on Majorca. But these Jews came up positive for 2% T. In a genetic study done on the high frequencies of T in Iberia, this Jewish community was effectively ruled out as the source of T on the Ibiza islands, thus another source was responsible for it; by far the most likely candidate are the Phoenicians.


Deep Ancestry Project book, written by Spencer Wells himself in 2007, haplogroup K2 description:


"Not all K-M9 descendants challenged the problem of the Pamir Knot. Others stayed in the relatively fertile environment of the near east. There, some 30,000 years ago, the marker M70 appeared and today defines this haplogroup, K2. Ancient members of haplogroup K2 dispersed across the Mediterranean world. They traveled west along the coast of north-Africa and also along the Mediterranean coastlines of Southern Europe. These movements suggest an intriguing possibility that the M70 marker may have been carried by Mediterranean traders such as the Phoenicians. These sea-faring people established a formidable, first millennium B.C. trading empire that spread westward, across the Mediterranean from its origins on the coast of modern-day Lebanon. M70 is found today throughout the Mediterranean, but it shows it's highest frequency (about 15 percent) in the Middle East and in north-east Africa. Members of this haplogroup are also found in southern Spain and France."


the only inconsistency would be the rarity of T in modern Lebanon (4.5-5%), but if that 16-21% of Jordanians IS in fact correct, that would mean this theory would be on the right track.
 
"They traveled west along the coast of north-Africa and also along the Mediterranean coastlines of Southern Europe" that sounds eerily like the movements of the Phoenicians, a general pattern that haplogroup T matches very well; globally. But then it's backed up by this "These movements suggest an intriguing possibility that the M70 marker may have been carried by Mediterranean traders such as the Phoenicians." Lol, so it seems already at this point they where catching on or speculating a Phoenician spread across the Mediterranean basin....the only contradictory evidence is from Lebanon and it's periphery itself, where T seems to be found at around 5% or so (like everywhere else lol...) but again like I said, if one fifth of Jordanians are in fact T (a claim not backed by other studies I've seen, 3-7%) then it could very well be a Phoenician periphery genetic marker. If I have to, I'll take a screenshot of my genographic 2.0 slides and result details to prove that this is in fact mentioned, maybe I could find an interesting photo or two as well.
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/#!po=73.8095

sile can you help me understand what it says about k2 here? Which PSC+ represents K2? was it spread by Phoenicians according to this?

No PSC on list matches K2 markers.............it proves K2 is not phoenician but does not prove that K2 did no go with Phoenicians

K2
Marker Modal Range of most common values
393 13 13-14
390 23 22-25
19 15 14-17
391 10 9-11
385a 14 13-14
385b 16 13-17
426 11 apparently 11
388 12 12, 14
439 11 10-13
389-1 14 13-15
392 13 13,14
389-2 30 27-30 DYS 389-2 = 27 helps
define an entire subclade.
458 18 14-19
459a 9 8,9
459b 9 8-10
455 11 apparently 11
454 13 10-15
447 26 24-27
437 14 12-15
448 19 17-21
449 33,34 31-36
464a 11
464b 13,14
464c 15,16
464d 16
460 10 10,11
GATA H4 10 9-11
YCA IIa 23 22,23
YCA IIb 24 23-25
456 15 14-16
607 13,14 13-15
576 17,18,19 14-19
570 18 16-20
CDY a 35 30-39
CDY b 36
442 11 11-13
438 9

bold is average
 
No PSC on list matches K2 markers.............it proves K2 is not phoenician but does not prove that K2 did no go with Phoenicians

K2
Marker Modal Range of most common values
393 13 13-14
390 23 22-25
19 15 14-17
391 10 9-11
385a 14 13-14
385b 16 13-17
426 11 apparently 11
388 12 12, 14
439 11 10-13
389-1 14 13-15
392 13 13,14
389-2 30 27-30 DYS 389-2 = 27 helps
define an entire subclade.
458 18 14-19
459a 9 8,9
459b 9 8-10
455 11 apparently 11
454 13 10-15
447 26 24-27
437 14 12-15
448 19 17-21
449 33,34 31-36
464a 11
464b 13,14
464c 15,16
464d 16
460 10 10,11
GATA H4 10 9-11
YCA IIa 23 22,23
YCA IIb 24 23-25
456 15 14-16
607 13,14 13-15
576 17,18,19 14-19
570 18 16-20
CDY a 35 30-39
CDY b 36
442 11 11-13
438 9

bold is average

from T genetic managers
Markers to note are
DYF395S1 17-17 - results for T, L, Q and R1a all have 16-17 or 17-17
contrasting with modal 15-16 for R1b.

This suggests that the K founder may have had 16-17 or 17-17 and that this
has been fairly stable in many descendant haplogroups. It would be
interesting to know when in the history of R1b the ancestral value changed.

DYS413 20-20 - the lowest values I have seen outside the J2a1 (17-17)
group.
DYF534 18 - at the upper end of the range for this marker
DYF481 27 - also "high" for this very variable marker.
 
I recently read that T-M70 originated

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorestan_Province

by the Kassites group.................of course T is far older, I guess the paper means an association with an ancient people ............still T-M184 the basal marker is elusive
 
Ok so T is not a main Phoenician marker...? Then what explains it's particular spread across the Mediterranean, canary/Madeiras islans, Lemba; a community of sleek crypto-Jews moving across the board? The distribution has an undeniably Phoenician pattern...can you send me the paper, new info for once...so now it'sit's the kassites of western Iran I guess.
 
Sumer ? Maybe.

I have heard this theory, but I'm not aware of any strong support. It is tempting, though, because Sumerian is a language isolate in a sea of Semitic languages (Babylonian, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, etc.) and seeing language "islands" is often a sign of y-chromosome diversity according to the "father tongue" hypothesis. Of course, the "father tongue" hypothesis doesn't always hold, with Hungarian and (possibly) Basque as notable exceptions. Sumerian could be a "mother tongue" language that was spoken by J-bearing men closely related to their Semitic-speaking cousins, but who themselves spoke a matrilineal language.
 
I have heard this theory, but I'm not aware of any strong support. It is tempting, though, because Sumerian is a language isolate in a sea of Semitic languages (Babylonian, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, etc.) and seeing language "islands" is often a sign of y-chromosome diversity according to the "father tongue" hypothesis. Of course, the "father tongue" hypothesis doesn't always hold, with Hungarian and (possibly) Basque as notable exceptions. Sumerian could be a "mother tongue" language that was spoken by J-bearing men closely related to their Semitic-speaking cousins, but who themselves spoke a matrilineal language.

It did not originate there..........it would have originated where LT split apart, so where near L ydna

But Maciano IIRC states more of a Elamite than Sumer for T
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam

IMO, sumer came from NW india to Kasmir areas and went to sumer ...............via the persian gulf which was only a river then
 
T in Ibiza ( Eivissa Pityuses ) which represents 17% of the populace

not my branch of ydna

[h=4]T1a1-L162 (xL208)[/h]T1a1 formed 17,400-14,600 BP, is the largest lineage downstream from T1a-M70 and became widespread across Eurasia and Africa before the modern era.
This extremely rare subclade has been found in Ibizan (Eivissan) islanders and Pontic Greeks from Giresun. The first Y-STR haplotype belonging to this lineage appeared in the paper of Tomas et al in 2006 among a sample of Eivissan individuals but is not until August 2009 when the first T1a1-L162(xL208) individual was reported in a 23andMe customer of Pontic Greek background and Metaxopoulos surname, thanks to the public Adriano Squecco's Y-Chromosome Genome Comparison Project.
Pontic Greeks from Giresun descend from Sinope colonists and Sinope was colonised by Ionians from Miletus. Is interesting to note that there exist an Ionian colony known as Pityussa just like the known Greek name for Eivissa Pityuses. In Eivissa, where is found the famous bust of Demeter that have been confused with the punic Tanit for decades, is known the cult to Demeter. The bust belonging to Demeter have been analysed and is found to contains black particles of volcanic sand origin from the Etna, is thought to be made in Sicily with red clays typical of the eastern Trinacria, which was colonized by the Ionians. The Ionians could be arrived to Eivissa c.2700 YBP. This lineage could be an Ionian marker. T1a1 formed 17,400-14,600 BP, is the largest lineage downstream from T1a-M70 and became widespread across Eurasia and Africa before the modern era.
This extremely rare subclade has been found in Ibizan (Eivissan) islanders and Pontic Greeks from Giresun. The first Y-STR haplotype belonging to this lineage appeared in the paper of Tomas et al in 2006 among a sample of Eivissan individuals.

Rodríguez V, Tomàs C, Sánchez JJ, et al. (March 2009). "Genetic sub-structure in western Mediterranean populations revealed by 12 Y-chromosome STR loci". Int. J. Legal Med. 123 (2): 137–41. doi:10.1007/s00414-008-0302-y. PMID 19066931.
 
It did not originate there..........it would have originated where LT split apart, so where near L ydna

But Maciano IIRC states more of a Elamite than Sumer for T
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam

IMO, sumer came from NW india to Kasmir areas and went to sumer ...............via the persian gulf which was only a river then

@Marciamo

I read your September 2016 update on T ( ydna ) and it seems the you like that, Pole from Eurogenes conveniently forget about samples that could "ruin your theory" from the past.

I hope this is not the case

Most of the article is good.

But, the issue is that you continually leave out the second Karsdorf T sample from the Haak paper leaves your theory wanting..........there are actually 2 ancient T samples in early neolithic Germany

And, the/your "herder" theory seems to be destroyed, T where Anatolian farmers who went to Central Europe....... . I do not know why you use this term, it seems the term herders is irrelevant to ancient samples..........either one is a farmer or a hunter
 
PopulationLanguageLocationMembers/Sample sizePercentageSource
[hide]​
Notes
MomynsOld Basmyl / Kazakh (Turkic)Argyn Tribe16/3053.3%[249]The outlier Babasan subclan is excluded from "sample size" and "percentage". 5 out of 6 Clans and 13 out of 19 Subclans have T-M184 members.
MeyramsOld Basmyl / Kazakh (Turkic)Argyn Tribe15/4930.6%[249]5 out of 5 Clans and 11 out of 16 Subclans have T-M184 members.

Argyns T1a-M70.jpg
 
PopulationLanguageLocationMembers/Sample sizePercentageSource
[hide]​
Notes
MomynsOld Basmyl / Kazakh (Turkic)Argyn Tribe16/3053.3%[249]The outlier Babasan subclan is excluded from "sample size" and "percentage". 5 out of 6 Clans and 13 out of 19 Subclans have T-M184 members.
MeyramsOld Basmyl / Kazakh (Turkic)Argyn Tribe15/4930.6%[249]5 out of 5 Clans and 11 out of 16 Subclans have T-M184 members.

View attachment 8782

the T-m184 from you above are associated with the Ashina people ...............who either learnt Sogdrian or taught their language to the sogdrians
 
Blue = 0 samples
Red = At least 1 sample

There are 0 T-L131 samples in yhrd sadly.
 
Blue = 0 samples
Red = At least 1 sample

There are 0 T-L131 samples in yhrd sadly.

yes , you are correct...when I search for just T i get ( see below in Red )

 

This thread has been viewed 77370 times.

Back
Top