Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

So is the Southern Arc paper supposed to come out tomorrow, or Friday the 26th?
 
Hawk said:
First time reading about Smederevo, that's quite north. Would never guess that some of Muhaxhers were from there.
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Me neither albeit something along Albanians north of Nish I did hear about but not about specifics. I mean I also have some ancestry from Albanians from Kotorr. There were also a bunch from that area that left for Kosovë and other places.

These groups of people should generally get more attention.
 
Hawk said:
Early Bronze Age Bulgarian samples will be revealed, the ones already leaked by Stamov 2 years ago, Neolithic-Chalcolithic Bulgaria G2a, and EBA Bulgaria with R1b, I2a and 1 J2a. And this will be claimed as Thracian by them.

As for Anatolia, West/North Anatolia after Bronze-Iron Age transition is more than welcome, and Iron-Classical Age Bulgaria, Greece.
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From what I can make of the rumors and what my gut feeling is telling me in the Balkans and further north they mostly tested sites from where we know that there is a lot of R1b-Z2103 (from Vucedol Slavonia to Bulgaria etc.) which is not really surprising since they have targeted early Yamnaya dispersals. That is their main interest. And they have also targeted a lot of TC BA culture sites and TC IA Celtic sites and these will mostly be R-L2 or 51+. We will essentially see how wide spread TC Celts perhaps were in that area. And we will also probably see Pannonian Neolithic like samples spread all over the area even in the Bronze Age and stuff like that. The overall sample size from the Balkans will not be too high however.

Not really thrilled about this one but too would be glad to see more IA East Adriatic samples and BA Dinaric samples since those are more of interest to me.
 
Hawk said:
Early Bronze Age Bulgarian samples will be revealed, the ones already leaked by Stamov 2 years ago, Neolithic-Chalcolithic Bulgaria G2a, and EBA Bulgaria with R1b, I2a and 1 J2a. And this will be claimed as Thracian by them.

As for Anatolia, West/North Anatolia after Bronze-Iron Age transition is more than welcome, and Iron-Classical Age Bulgaria, Greece.
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Are they holding the Kapitan Andreevo samples back?
 
Riverman said:
Are they holding the Kapitan Andreevo samples back?
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In one of them likely. Probably they separated the papers by chronology to summarize/deduce by context.
 
Hawk said:
In one of them likely. Probably they separated the papers by chronology to summarize/deduce by context.
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Many keep up the "Thracian EBA" story, even though between the MBA to EIA one wave of newcomers settled there after another, leaving little common ground for any sort of larger scale continuity. It's just a paradigm which survived itself imho.
 
Riverman said:
Many keep up the "Thracian EBA" story, even though between the MBA to EIA one wave of newcomers settled there after another, leaving little common ground for any sort of larger scale continuity. It's just a paradigm which survived itself imho.
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People are generally forgetting that the Balkan peninsula was very diverse in the LCA-EBA. Neolithic like samples from Slavonia etc. in both parental and autosomal DNA are proof of this (there was also evidence for dead end mesolithic markers such as under R1b-V88).

People won't just link the wrong cultures with the Thracians they will likely do the same for the Western Balkans. Let's just ignore that one era is reflective of the process of events of the other specifically in transitional periods.

What formed the East Adriatic IA for instance was Bronze Age Dinaric culture, but as I have already seen with certain users there is the forced attempt of trying to connect it to other cultural zones and time frames. Would not surprise me if such wrong proposals would also be done by the authors of the papers. Of course there are a lot of different sorts of influences that form such opinions.

One thing I cannot stand is bad ethics, that is all I'm going to say.
 
Riverman said:
Many keep up the "Thracian EBA" story, even though between the MBA to EIA one wave of newcomers settled there after another, leaving little common ground for any sort of larger scale continuity. It's just a paradigm which survived itself imho.
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depends who you think the thracians are ...................some state the Dacians and Getae are thracians and others say they are not
 
torzio said:
depends who you think the thracians are ...................some state the Dacians and Getae are thracians and others say they are not
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That doesn't really matter, because the people which spoke Thracian likely came to the Lower Danube area not before the LBA-EIA, in any case not before the MBA. And the differentation within the Thracian sphere is just lumpers vs. splitters.
 
Well, E-V13 confirmed Thracian, it's all over Thrace, only 1 R1a in Kapitan Andreevo among E-V13'ers. It looks like Noua-Sabatinovaska and Gava/Wieteneberg from Carpathian Mountains formed Proto-Thracians.

No E-V13 in Iron Age Albania, 1 in Iron Age Croatia though.

One thing to consider though, in Neolithic Romania there is no E-V13, so, it must have been.

Couple of E-V13 in Early Middle Age Marmara, Turkey. I think, either in mutation notatation they wrongly assigned to J2a, they look E1b1b1a1b in ISOGG.
 
Hawk said:
Well, E-V13 confirmed Thracian, it's all over Thrace, only 1 R1a in Kapitan Andreevo among E-V13'ers. It looks like Noua-Sabatinovaska and Gava/Wieteneberg from Carpathian Mountains formed Proto-Thracians.

No E-V13 in Iron Age Albania, 1 in Iron Age Croatia though.
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Can you send the samples that way we can discuss them?
 
Hawk said:
I took them from your link dude. J2b2-L283 and R1b is in Iron Age Albania, J2b2-L283 is in Montenegro as well.
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I know that, I don't have the time to analyze all the sample, that is why I asked you.
 
1 E-V13 potentially in North Macedonia. Quite a lot of R1b and J2a there.
 
2 E-V13 samples in Marmara, in Byzantine Empire Early Middle Age. 3 of them i think were wrongly assigned to J-PF2254 but in fact they are E1b1ba1b/E-V13. Don't know whether they truly are J-PF2254 or E-V13. There was a mix. Let's see.
 
Excine said:
I know that, I don't have the time to analyze all the sample, that is why I asked you.
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Be patient then. I am analyzing. Lots of columns, i am horizontally scrolling.
 
Excine said:
Np, thanks.
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Well, all over B.C Thrace E-V13 appears, only 1 occassion of R1a. And it was found in a pit as well, Kapitan Andreevo alongside dozens of E-V13. This was the ritual pit of Eastern Urnfielders. No E-V13 in Neolithic or EBA Romania though.

In Kapitan Andreevo several ones, and in two different locations somewhere in Central Bulgaria.

Other cases of 1 E-V13 is in Iron Age Croatia alongside J2b2's. And in Early Middle Age Western Turkey 2 E-V13, and very like 3 others whose real status we don't know since they were mixed, ISOGG column classifies them as E1b1b1a1b.
 
J-Z2507 (within J2) is found in 21 individuals. It is part of haplogroup J-M102 for which it was written in 2004 on the basis of present-day samples that: “J-M12 is almost totally represented by its sublineage J-M102, which shows frequency peaks in both the southern Balkans and north-central Italy”(471) In the ancient data we find it in 3 samples from Rome,(436) with the earliest being R474.SG (700-600 BCE). All remaining samples are from the Balkans and indeed the Western Balkans (Montenegro, Croatia, Albania) and most of them are from the Bronze Age. Thus, J-Z2507 has a peri-Adriatic ancient distribution in agreement with the present-day distribution and may represent a Bronze Age or later expansion in the area. The immediately upstream nodes of J-Z2507 are J-Z585, J-Z615, J-Z597 with a similar time depth and include two additional Bronze Age samples from Albania and Croatia, and are thus part of the same pattern. J-Z600, the parent node of J-Z585, includes four additional individuals, one of which is from Croatia, and three of which are from the Late Bronze Age Nuragic culture in the island of Sardinia,(20, 453) thus suggesting that this culture included individuals of Bronze Age Western Balkan origin (these might have Italian intermediaries, but we do not detect any J-Z600 in mainland Italy prior to the aforementioned Iron Age sample from Rome).

Jesus these nomenclatures are questionable. Just say J2b-L283 and then name the downstream clades.



 
From paper...

Haplogroup E-V13(476) is an important Southeast European Y-chromosomal lineage, wellrepresented in present-day people of the Balkans.(467, 477-479) Its estimated TMRCA of 4,800is most consistent with the inference that this represents a Bronze Age expansion(478) ratherthan Paleolithic/Neolithic expansions as previously proposed. In the ancient data it is onlydetected (in the Southern Arc) in the Iron Age with four examples at Kapitan Andreevo inBulgaria (1100-500 BCE) and one from Sv Kriz in Croatia (I5724; 382-206 calBCE). Thesesamples also belong to downstream clades E-Z1057 and E-CTS1273 (with a TRMCA of 4,500years). Later examples are found in Late Antique and Medieval Spain(449) and Italy(436, 453),while we also find it in Hellenistic and Roman samples from Bulgaria and in a pair of brothers(500-700 CE) from Byzantine Nicaea in Turkey.Its absence in Bronze Age southeastern Europe (n=107) is in remarkable contrast with itsubiquity in the present day, leading us to hypothesize that either it did exist there prior to oursampling but in a specific region from which we have no samples or it arose elsewhere andmigrated to southeastern Europe just prior to the earliest sampled individuals. The parent node ofE-V13 is E-L618 which is called for an earlier sample from the Lengyel culture in Hungarywhich was ancestral for the V13 SNP (I1900 4797-4619 calBCE; E-L618(xE-BY64249,E-V13))and which has an estimated TMRCA of 7,800 years BP. Thus, the evidence appears consistentwith a scenario in which E-L618 Y-chromosomes entered Europe during the Neolithic and EV13 representing a remarkably successful lineage within this group that had not yet achievedprominence during the Bronze Age, but had begun to do so by the Iron Age.
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One step further on Riverman's theory.
 
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